India confirms order for IAF's Rafale deal with France

[Archie]

Who wants to Bet that the deal for 36 Rafales will include a follow up order clause for 63 aircrafts just like the original Tender

 

[posedion]

well if u think weapons make armies win then Nato should have conquered Afghanistan successfully and Afghanistan would have been peaceful but sadly President of Afghanistan is famously dubbed as Mayor of kabul



well i think they are banned but experts in here can confirm .. i think with more lobbying Pakistan can get its hands on J11b and also Pakistanis are thinking to jump on 5th generation fighter like j31 soo i hope they come up with something better more advanced and not very costly fighter....

Try taking on NATO and tell that Dead Mad Dog Gaddafi and That scum Saddam

 

[zambino]

Who wants to Bet that the deal for 36 Rafales will include a follow up order clause for 63 aircrafts just like the original Tender

Archie bhaiya ne side badal di

 

[xyxmt]

Isnt this the 6th Time India has confirmed Rafael deal in last 15 years

 

[SR-91]

@shree835
My concern is not the low numbers of Rafale but the total reduction in our numbers. By the time we will receive the 2 squadrons of Rafale , we will have to retire 4 squadrons of Mig27s, at least 4 of Mig21s and 2 of Jaguars. To replace all of these, we will at best have 2 squadrons of Rafale, 2 squadrons of Su30mki and 2 squadrons of Tejas. We still fall short of 4 squadrons. We need to get second hand mirages and new Mig29s to fill up the gap .

Indian airforce number game, we might be slightly short on the Jets being replaced. However, there is a huge technology leap. Newer planes means higher availability, more time in air ==== to higher numbers of sorties.
Second...............IAF will reduce the numbers of jets in each squadrons thereby keeping the number of squadrons.
So, same numbers of squadrons and higher number of available sorties will keep IAF on its toes.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Indian airforce number game, we might be slightly short on the Jets being replaced. However, there is a huge technology leap. Newer planes means higher availability, more time in air ==== to higher numbers of sorties.
Second...............IAF will reduce the numbers of jets in each squadrons thereby keeping the number of squadrons.
So, same numbers of squadrons and higher number of available sorties will keep IAF on its toes.

F7( Mig 21) to J11 ( Su30) is abig big leap. So why is China replacing their force 1 for 1?
Because numbers are important.

Even if God grants us one aircraft equal to all of PAF , we will still loose .
That's the truth.

And also take into consideration that not more than 65%of the fleet will be air worthy at any given time.

I am sorry buddy but its highly idotic to reduce the squadron strength just to keep up the required squadron number.

In reality doing so is similar to painting an old Truck with new paint. The problem will not be solved,only it will be hidden for some time untill it grows so much that its incurable .

@MastanKhan @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA sir I would request you to put up your views on the importance of numbers , for a country like India.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

F7( Mig 21) to J11 ( Su30) is abig big leap. So why is China replacing their force 1 for 1?
Because numbers are important.

Even if God grants us one aircraft equal to all of PAF , we will still loose .
That's the truth.

And also take into consideration that not more than 65%of the fleet will be air worthy at any given time.

I am sorry buddy but its highly idotic to reduce the squadron strength just to keep up the required squadron number.

In reality doing so is similar to painting an old Truck with new paint. The problem will not be solved,only it will be hidden for some time untill it grows so much that its incurable .

@MastanKhan @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA sir I would request you to put up your views on the importance of numbers , for a country like India.

At any point of time as a thumb rule 5-10% of your fleet are dedicated N delivery options

At roughly 750 birds the 5% comes to 36.. So basically if one has to understand the roles of these rafales in 2 different bases potentially looking over east and west of India purely from sfc purpose. Thts phase 1

Phase 2 is raising the N delivery fleet to 10% for that you need another 36 rafales..

This for purely SFC purpose IAF needs 80 birds, 72 fighters 4 trainers 4 backups divided into 4 squadrons in 4 bases overlooking east and west India.

This is the reason IAF said off the shelf 80 birds.

Beyond this the rules are simple. Divide the total number of aircraft as 20% light category 40% medium and 40% heavy far from ideally 40% light and 30% medium and 30% heavy due to light category issues well known to us already.

If we arrive at basic POV 40% roughly is 300 out of which at present the ops are being done by jags and mirages and forms around 150 odd numbers. These numbers would come down considerably opening the gap further.and eventually it may be just mirages and handful of actual jaguars as assets even after upgrades left. Inspire of fully conidering the gap at 240 odd considering just mirages and subtracting SFC needs of say 80 gives that much actual requirement of around 160 odd medium category bird.
Considering Rafale to be far advanced and powerful than what it replaces the most probable strategy would be 66% replacement or 2/3 rd of the gap at 110 odd numbers.

Thus you get 110+80=190 or 189 as per mmrca original need.

This is my understanding for fleet planning.
Why IAF is more skewed for medium and heavy category is purely from operational missions perspectives. If the op needs further change and light category gets accommodated we will see it moving to the ideal ratio I talked before.
Now you know why MKI are close to 300 or 272!!!
The rest mumbo jumbo mig 21. 27 etc are discounted as they are retired way too soon.. So better not consider them for the word replacement as its far complicated fleet formation.

@Vauban @Abingdonboy @anant_s @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Taygibay

 

[SR-91]

F7( Mig 21) to J11 ( Su30) is abig big leap. So why is China replacing their force 1 for 1?
Because numbers are important.

Even if God grants us one aircraft equal to all of PAF , we will still loose .
That's the truth.

And also take into consideration that not more than 65%of the fleet will be air worthy at any given time.

I am sorry buddy but its highly idotic to reduce the squadron strength just to keep up the required squadron number.

In reality doing so is similar to painting an old Truck with new paint. The problem will not be solved,only it will be hidden for some time untill it grows so much that its incurable .

@MastanKhan @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA sir I would request you to put up your views on the importance of numbers , for a country like India.

Didn't say numbers are not important, they are.
But, IAF is in a tight situation where there is no other choice than to reduce the squadron strength to keep the required squadrons.

Requirements of India is much much different than of china. First, China is atleast twice as big as India. Second, they have a lot more enemies and they want to compare themselves with USA. That is their biggest concern/threat. That is why numbers are extremely important to them. Look at it from their prospective, Imagine........USA+JAPAN+INDIA+AUSTRALIA. That is how they are looking at it, so they need numbers. Plus it helps when u are rich.

Money is also a huge factor, that is why India cancelled MMRCA of 126 jets and is negotiating a different contract. China is the only country that can AFFORD to replace their aircraft 1 to 1. Plus, While our total squadrons requirement is of 42, China's is much greater than that. It will be crazy to compare India to china.

By the way, by the closing of year 2020/2021 India should have procured close to 3 squadrons of RAFALES and 3 squadrons of LCA and 2 squadrons of Su30mki.

By that time, India should also start receiving SUPER SU30MKI. Testing on FGFA........and POSSIBLY LCA MK2 will have started.

We have a credible govt now. Things will change, have a little patience.

 

[MastanKhan]

F7( Mig 21) to J11 ( Su30) is abig big leap. So why is China replacing their force 1 for 1?
Because numbers are important.

Even if God grants us one aircraft equal to all of PAF , we will still loose .
That's the truth.

And also take into consideration that not more than 65%of the fleet will be air worthy at any given time.

I am sorry buddy but its highly idotic to reduce the squadron strength just to keep up the required squadron number.

In reality doing so is similar to painting an old Truck with new paint. The problem will not be solved,only it will be hidden for some time untill it grows so much that its incurable .

@MastanKhan @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA sir I would request you to put up your views on the importance of numbers , for a country like India.

Hi,

I think that the EUPHORIA for a conflict between India and Pakistan needs to dissipate in thin air----.

Just look at the destruction caused in Syria and Libya with just conventional weapons is atrocious----. I think that opponents should come off their high horses and elephants---come down to the ground and smell the dirt---talk to each other and resolve the issues---.

The world has become a terrible place in fighting the american wars---. The promise of shiny and fancy american weapons does work like an aphrodisiac---but if you could just come out of it for a moment---and let sanity prevail---you might envision death and destruction that they will cause.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Hi,

I think that the EUPHORIA for a conflict between India and Pakistan needs to dissipate in thin air----.

Just look at the destruction caused in Syria and Libya with just conventional weapons is atrocious----. I think that opponents should come off their high horses and elephants---come down to the ground and smell the dirt---talk to each other and resolve the issues---.

The world has become a terrible place in fighting the american wars---. The promise of shiny and fancy american weapons does work like an aphrodisiac---but if you could just come out of it for a moment---and let sanity prevail---you might envision death and destruction that they will cause.

Yup sir respect your views. But I would be still thankful if you put up your technical self here. My intention was nothing else.
Thanks.

 

[Abingdonboy]

If you look at our purchase history over last 20 years
Then you will see that India always places follow on order once initial contract is completed
I do expect a follow on order for 36-44 Rafales to be placed around year 2020, if only because the Ruskies screwed the PAKFA
Also I expect a third order for 36-48 Rafale M for INS Vishal if USA doesn't gives us the F35 C

Why would the IAF be willing to wait 6-7 years (assuming delivery of follow-ons would take place begining in 2022-3) for just 2-3 more SQNs? During that time the number of MiG-21 and 27 SQNs phased out will be vastly more and only offset by the LCA and MKI inductions to a marginal degree. With the IAF stating its itent to realise its legal sanction of 42 SQN by 2025-27 it ins't going to get anywhere near by this precription of yours my friend.

Has anyone (who doubts at least 126 Rafales coming to the iAF) been able to provide a credible answer to where the shortfall will be made up? It certainly won't be with an increase in orders for the LCA or MKI (the IAF has ruled out the latter and no one who considers themselves to have a sane mind would prescribe inducting the LCA as a substitute for a heavy weight twin engined Western 4.5++ jet- that two in 2020- when the threat perception will be very different to today). The ACM stated in October 2015 that to meet current requirements the IAF requires at least 6 SQNs of the Rafale- the 126 figure is clearly still intact. Now factor in that this has been the IAF's projected requirement since at least 1999 (when they first started looking to acquire this numner of Mirage 2000s), one has to only assume that this number is on the low side and the IAF's requirements will have inflated by now- especially when the FGFA is literally nowhere to be seen.

 

[INDIAISM]

Why would the IAF be willing to wait 6-7 years (assuming delivery of follow-ons would take place begining in 2022-3) for just 2-3 more SQNs? During that time the number of MiG-21 and 27 SQNs phased out will be vastly more and only offset by the LCA and MKI inductions to a marginal degree. With the IAF stating its itent to realise its legal sanction of 42 SQN by 2025-27 it ins't going to get anywhere near by this precription of yours my friend.

Has anyone (who doubts at least 126 Rafales coming to the iAF) been able to provide a credible answer to where the shortfall will be made up? It certainly won't be with an increase in orders for the LCA or MKI (the IAF has ruled out the latter and no one who considers themselves to have a sane mind would prescribe inducting the LCA as a substitute for a heavy weight twin engined Western 4.5++ jet- that two in 2020- when the threat perception will be very different to today). The ACM stated in October 2015 that to meet current requirements the IAF requires at least 6 SQNs of the Rafale- the 126 figure is clearly still intact. Now factor in that this has been the IAF's projected requirement since at least 1999 (when they first started looking to acquire this numner of Mirage 2000s), one has to only assume that this number is on the low side and the IAF's requirements will have inflated by now- especially when the FGFA is literally nowhere to be seen.

And who told you that you need to replace Mig 21 whose major role is point defence and air policing during peace time with Rafale....To be frank the best option we have to replace Mig 21 is LCA tejas and SAM squadrons....And as far MIG 27 are concern they can be replaced with 36 Rafale and remaining Su 30mki....

 

[Archie]

And who told you that you need to replace Mig 21 whose major role is point defence and air policing during peace time with Rafale....To be frank the best option we have to replace Mig 21 is LCA tejas and SAM squadrons....And as far MIG 27 are concern they can be replaced with 36 Rafale and remaining Su 30mki....

I am sure you are aware that the Squadrons which fly the Su30MKI, earlier were equiped with Mig21 and Mig23
We have replaced 6 airwings comprising 14 Sqds of Mig21 and 4 Sqds of Mig23 with 5 Airwings of Su30MKI comprising 12 Sqds

 

[INDIAISM]

I am sure you are aware that the Squadrons which fly the Su30MKI, earlier were equiped with Mig21 and Mig23
We have replaced 6 airwings comprising 14 Sqds of Mig21 and 4 Sqds of Mig23 with 5 Airwings of Su30MKI comprising 12 Sqds

I know but that doesn't means that you should replace entire fleet of Light fighter jet with Heavy Fighter jets...

Its not just about procurement cost you also need to take into account the huge difference between the operational cost ...

 

[GreenApple]

Who wants to Bet that the deal for 36 Rafales will include a follow up order clause for 63 aircrafts just like the original Tender

I bet . t won't be..
...with PAF-FA out of equation, I see a renewed thrust for AMCA