India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

[Joe Shearer]

I have serious reservations on that 2002 thing, but don't feel for one moment that I have any kind of understanding with Modi on this. What gets me is that, the precursor event has conveniently left collective minds of people. I know this is what aboutery, yes I do but what happens to objectivity when we don't put all facts forward?

I don't agree, even as I see your point of view.

I don't agree because I question the so-called precursor event. There is sufficient evidence, there was the investigation by a retired very senior judge, that there was a fire inside the coach, and we are all familiar with the entitlement displayed by those who thought they were on a crusade. Cooking inside a compartment would have meant nothing to them.

All the facts does not include facts that so conveniently suited the goals of the Sangh Parivar.

I kind of share that perception yes, as I feel people without experience of handling power usually bungle it up. Not that those with experience don't, but at least they know how to manage optics better when they do that.

It isn't about managing optics better. If it were so, then this present government would be the best we have ever had, because they manage optics the best, much better than their precursors have done.

How do you think they would acquire this knowledge? Unless they get to power?

They were in power, at state level, 12 long years before getting to power at national level. What did they do with that, other than refine their mob management skills?

 

[El Sidd]

From a tactical point of view and conventional military manvouring it would be suicidal for them to throw in offensively unless it is insignificiant low numbers which can't much more then to bait Pakistan into India itself but other then that if they need any realistic offensive against pakistan they have to throw in 1m men which will be the best gift Pakistan can have because they will be able to take them out within an hour with Tactical nuke it could be such a significiant mistake that it could at the end be the single decision that has decided the war.. They are in defense posture and have been in that position for awhile not seeing them changing that

Indians are hell bent on war. The Indian war mongering has fanatical religious interests and not just geopolitical. Recently in Kashmir the Indian government has invited irregulars to form militias. Numbers are not a problem for India.

As far as nuclear deterrence goes, it is not as simple as it sounds.

 

[Titanium100]

Indians are hell bent on war. The Indian war mongering has fanatical religious interests and not just geopolitical. Recently in Kashmir the Indian government has invited irregulars to form militias. Numbers are not a problem for India.

As far as nuclear deterrence goes, it is not as simple as it sounds.

India doesn't seek war otherwise it would have sought one and neither will they do until atleast at the half century point 2050s where the world economy may collapse but other then that India doesn't want war now or in the near future.. They won't miscalculate until they have nothing to lose such as during economical collapse, natural disasters etc etc..

There is conventional deterence forget nuclear deterence

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do you know why I dislike Congress so much? They are the ones who taught these dirty tricks to every party we got today. Except Jan Sangh aren't every other party, a split from them?

This is ironic.

Even as I agree with your general point, I feel lost in admiration that you yourself point out the essential difference between 'every party we got today' and the exception, the Jan Sangh.

Every other party might have been self-indulgent, self-serving and inclined to corruption as a habit and a way of life, and inclined to perpetuate themselves in power by creating little pockets of influence for their families, and especially their children. The Jan Sangh, as it stands today, has the same vices.

In addition, the Jan Sangh always had, descending from Savarkar, on one side, and from Hedgewar and Golwalkar on the other side, a toxic hatred for Muslims, and Islamophobia in their DNA.

This is unforgivable.

In effect, it questions the citizenship of 210 Indian citizens, an offence tantamount to treason against the constitution and the state. Tantamount, not legally so, not according to the very laws and the legal system that they flout with such cavalier disregard.

Incidentally, may I remind you that I despise the Congress, largely because of the corruption that they displayed in the years before 1967, that I witnessed first-hand as a college student. However, we both need to refrain from whataboutery, so let me let you off the hook here.

Being in power for so long, they are the ones who pit one community against another shamelessly to stay in power. You can't just wish away the resentment, when this happens particularly in a country like ours.

In what way did they do so, precisely? When pinned down, those who flaunt this justification for toxic minority-hating politics talk about the reforms of Hindu personal law (partial reforms, although no Hindutva apologist will acknowledge that) in a unilateral manner, the government control of Hindu temples, and the sops given to Muslims going on pilgrimage to Mecca.

What else was there?

Nobody is able to get more specific.

 

[El Sidd]

India doesn't seek war otherwise it would have sought one and neither will they do until atleast at the half century point 2050s where the world economy may collapse but other then that India doesn't want war now or in the future.. They won't miscalculate until they have nothing to lose such as during economical collapse, natural disasters etc etc..

There is conventional deterence forget nuclear deterence

You clearly haven't seen an elephant in a state of musth

 

[Titanium100]

You clearly haven't seen an elephant in a state of musth

You don't have military understanding.. Do you even know the weapons both country possesses weapon for weapon.. I don't think you do hence stay away from such topics it is not your forte.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We are looking at BJP as a standalone here, all I am asking is to consider the environment they are operating in.

I am quite open to that, but once again, what IS the environment that they are operating in, that justifies giving them such a great deal of additional latitude?

Why is it as assumption? What other choices did public have back then, other than voting to Congress?

Does your need to phrase it as a conditional, as an 'if', not speak for itself?

I am not aware of the Jamia University incident or the ex Service man incident either, but did read on the JNU stuff a bit. TBH I keep away from any news these past few years, that get me all worked up. There is so much shit already in running a family lol. I will never call such actions reasonable, but then what is new in our country? Every party when in power shamelessly helps its factions and minions, and punishes the other side.

Once again, two wrongs do not make a right.

Over and above that, none of the other parties made a practice of assaulting students, or detaining dissidents without trial without even the face-saving cover of preventive detention laws.

I want to point out that you have slipped into whataboutery again.

 

[Imran Khan]

gher main nhi hain daany
amaan chali bhunany

aby pehly roti to poori ker lo bhikariyoo

 

[Joe Shearer]

The highlighted part, aren't you reading history with a lens of present? How can you or I know, what the actual situations back then where with certainty?

Jaichand and Prithviraj, at the barest minimum.

If you wish, open a different thread, and I will fill it in with chapter and verse of how the Indians of that time vied with each other to create conditions to let in, to use your very evocative term, every two-bit warlord.

As a graduated student of history, and as a lifelong student of history thereafter till now, I assure you that what I suggested is not speculation but is based on facts.

Oh about the map, I meant the whole subcontinent and not just South of India when I talked about the warlords and incursions. Given my earlier post about being a Southie, I didn't want anyone thinking I was meaning just he Southern part that am from.

That point is well taken. I have no quarrel with that, whatsoever.

Considering my in-laws antecedents, and considering that my last 9 years have been in Hyderabad, you may be sure that along with a smattering of Tamil, and a slightly firmer grip on Kannada, I have a sympathy for the southern point of view, indeed, a distaste for the cow-belt. Not for nothing does my child speak four Indian languages, from the east, the north and two from the south, along with a dialect of one of those last.

 

[brational]

Even if India is capable of defeating Pakistan militarily and let's assume Pakistani armed forces surrendered in front of IA, whats next? For me the problem will start from this point. Most of the Indian tax payers like me won't allow a sigle penny towards the upkeepment of the unproductive population. So capturing whole of Pakistan is out of equation.

GB and Azad Kashmir is part of India and India will take that back. Militarily it is doable but non military options are more lucrative. Pakistan will be forced to hand over the occupied area on its own will. GoI is working on it and it is predictable due to the condition of Pakistan today. Thanks to Pakistani Mullahs, Zameendars, Bread Pizza Baniya Army and the last but not the least, The Pakistani Awaam. The more they are indoctrinated, more quickly this will happen. Chhota abbu China bhi nahi rok payega.

BTW, any update on Maryam ka beta? Gazi log kab ayega? Jaldi bhejo mujhe kal Panvel keliye nikal na hai. Hadeeth wale bhaisaab (PBUH) kuch karo.

 

[El Sidd]

You don't have military understanding.. Do you even know the weapons both country possesses weapon for weapon.. I don't think you do hence stay away from such topics it is not your forte.

War is a human thing not a computer generated simulation

 

[Titanium100]

War is a human thing not a computer generated simulation

There are too many mechanism a layman won't understand both in the conventional theatre, stragetic weapons and tactical planning. These 3 can be complex for the common layman to wrap their heads around and not to forget the conventional theatre includes all sorts of weaponry that needs to be understood what they can do and how to use them.

Believe this is over your head and needs alot of studying for you to grasp any of this

 

[AlKardai]

You don't have military understanding.. Do you even know the weapons both country possesses weapon for weapon.. I don't think you do hence stay away from such topics it is not your forte.

No way you just said military matters are your forte

You're the same guy who was suggesting that Pakistan should invade India up to the Ganges by a tank push through Kashmir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

PS about the examples: Is it not true that most of the Universities, and intelligentsia have been peddling only the Left version in every walk of life? When you push the other side out so much, they will turn crazy like in our Country. But then how many people even get that, a healthy debate can be had without demonizing others.

I disagree deeply.

People tend to conflate left and liberal. I am a liberal. There have been many intellects who subscribed to the orthodox left point of view, but it is a common error for sympathisers with the Sangh Parivar to assume that there was a monopoly of the left in academe. They were there, in numbers disproportionate to the political influence that the waning left had in the country, but they were far from monopolistic; they were a faction, like any other.

Where people feel pushed out so much, it is because after the Swatantra Party, there was no genuine right-wing conservative party available (the Jan Sangh is plain fascistic).

Regarding a healthy debate, I have been a member of a group of almost equal numbers of Pakistanis and Indians, and we have discussed everything under the Sun, including religion, specifically including but not limited to Islam, and politics, at deep and searching levels, without the slightest need for intervention by a moderator.

Further, would you describe our present conversation as unhealthy?

@indushek

I believe we should start a new thread, and leave people to dispute how badly Pakistan would trounce India as the major content of this thread. I leave you to do the honours.

 

[Titanium100]

No way you just said military matters are your forte

You're the same guy who was suggesting that Pakistan should invade India up to the Ganges by a tank push through Kashmir.

I stand by these words until death do me parts and yes I said them proudly and nobody can unconvince me and I didn't say it just for the heck of it. I never said the tank part however.

Pakistan will never fight India for Kashmir but for Delhi, and everything else that is India is a price to be won..

By Allah we will bring the fight to them.. Whether we win or not the decision is with the heavans alone but we will bring it that is for damn sure and Fxck Kashmir it is irrelevant.. if shxt hits the fane we going for Delhi, bombey and everything India owns..

You either take me out on my shield or I will own that Sub-continent there is nothing inbetween..

The pen is dry (The pen of destiny)