India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

[nahtanbob]

What is this drivel..

Trying to paint India into something it is not. Pakistan doesn't view as all that and sees it defeatable. there is nothing that will change Pakistan's calculations.

Pakistan will not engage India for Jammu it is just to small of a territory to start such a large war for at that magnitude but what Pakistan is banking on is that the RSS elements will eventually seize power in India and miscalculate that is when Pakistan can re-claim all of India as direct consequence of that.

Pakistan will have no other choice in an eventful nuclear war but to go for the throat of India and by that I don't mean Kashmir which is by large irrelevant. India itself won't engage Pakistan for GB or Azad Kashmir ever because it is too small of a territory to start a nuclear armegeddon for hence the Kashmirs will remain intact and both countries won't fight each other for that territory ever because it is to irrelevant for both sides considering the scale of war it would bring.

But if an ultra-RSS extremist group seeks power in India both countries could fall upon an enlarger existential conflict and note not for both Kashmir as these are factually irrelevant for both sides when everything is considered but an existential finale conflict can't be ruled out initiated by fanatical elements if they seek power in both places and India is the more likely area where such groups will emerge from an gain power in turning the sub-continent into a nuclear ash wasteland where an existential struggle will take hold that could last for upto 10-15 years until one group enforces it's will on the other and gain absolute victory.

We could witness anywhere near 500m to 1 billion casualities in the sub-continent post that conflict.

All this economy this or economy that will go out of the window both countries will economically collapse within the conflict once population centers are wipped out but the more resilient one will weather the storm who can coop with the harsh reality better.. I think Pakistan is more resilient then it's counterpart and has better terrain against an outfall not that they will be immune to it but better suited

kiddo you need money to fight wars. money does not grow on trees. if anything you spent 75 years on borrowed money

 

[Titanium100]

kiddo you need money to fight wars. money does not grow on trees. if anything you spent 75 years on borrowed money

You think we will ever pay back any of that

We have an economy to fight with and we will definitely get help from multiple quarters who will finance in us if such an event occurs you would be surprised

 

[nahtanbob]

You think we will ever pay back any of that

We have an economy to fight with and we will definitely get help from multiple quarters who will finance in us if such an event occurs you would be surprised

Anything stopping you from getting a $1 billion IMF loan
China is the last hope - they have not bailed you out

 

[indushek]

We have, elsewhere, been discussing hard numbers that show rather a different picture.

However, we can, as you put it, agree to disagree. We will have to, as my position is that there has been nothing positive done by this government in ten years, with one exception, the resounding success of UPI.


To be honest, I have nothing against that family, and no inclination to gloat over their present squirming and gasping for breath. Never having been a Congress supporter, I have nothing for that family either, except certain very limited reservations about Nehru, major reservations about Indira Gandhi, and serious exceptions to some actions of Rajive Gandhi, specifically, his regressive attitude towards the Shah Bano judgement, his clandestine opening of the lock on the Babri Masjid locked up portion, and his utterly wrong interference with Sri Lanka, and withdrawal after an unsuccessful intervention, leaving the Tamils to their fate.

I am at heart a pessimist when it comes to our Politicians, and I include every party in this Country. I wasn't like this a decade back, but am now one firmly.

I am not old as you Joe, but am not younger anymore either. The last decade or so has taught me, or maybe this is how I understood it, that no Politician we got is there in Politics (in power or in opposition it doesn't matter) to do good to us public.

So when I enjoy Congress's squirming, it's not as a BJP supporter. I am just enjoying one group drunk on power, being shown their place. I am not a blind bhakt to think that, Modi or his ilk are going to cause flow of rivers of Milk and Honey. I have seen the shameless defense of high ticket items of corruption by Congress, ex 2G coal etc. Their reason as to why People still should vote for them? Cause the big bad wolf who will be causing havoc in Country will be coming in. That's like saying I will keep looting you, but support me because there is a murderer coming in.

Truthfully speaking what are the options our Public has? Chose between a plunderer who sings songs of brotherhood between communities, and has done jack shit for the community they so built their empire on (and) a Confused bunch who have no Idea of what they want as BJP has clearly shown, and regional Satraps who are a mix of everything from Gunda gardi to murder and rape.

I am sure soon this lot will get drunk on power too soon, and as it happen some big ticket items will be coming out in future.

 

[Titanium100]

Anything stopping you from getting a $1 billion IMF loan

Is just good night bed-stories for kids all this IMF we will never default until the oil wells in Arabia go dry and that is a fact all this is just a waste of time.. If We were to default we should have during the 60s under severe sanctions but we never did.. We have more lives then cats..

People just need to realize that we will never default period.. Petro has to vanish before we do that

 

[nahtanbob]

Is just good night bad-stories for kids all this IMF we will never default until the oil wells in Arabia go dry and that is a fact all this is just a waste of time.. We were to default we should have during the 60s under sanction but we never did.. We like cats we have more then 9 lives..

People just need to realize that we will never default period.. Petro has to vanish before we do that

you need money to purchase oil. no one is giving you free oil. maybe on deferred credit
there is a price for all the aid from America, Saudis and Chinese. nothing is free

 

[Titanium100]

you need money to purchase oil. no one is giving you free oil. maybe on deferred credit
there is a price for all the aid from America, Saudis and Chinese. nothing is free

You failed to catch my drift there but whatever

 

[Joe Shearer]

You failed to catch my drift there but whatever

He meant that they will be given alms in perpetuity by sympathetic oil-rich countries.

No intention of running a viable country, only an improvement in 'asking' skills.

 

[indushek]

Not very clear.

It seems that there is a perception of a monopoly of power, that others may or may not share. I do not share this perception, but have no problems with those who do share it.

That said, there is zero justification in that supposed concentration of power for the bungling of the present 'lot'. If they haven't had much experience, they shouldn't try to do social engineering.

It would have been better if they had acquired knowledge of governance (their episode in Gujarat hardly qualifies; some would say, from 2002, that it was actually a disqualification). It would have been better if they had not launched blatant assaults on the institutions, and played every card to bring them to heel. It would have been better if they had not misused central agencies and central ministries to harass the opposition, and non-political dissidents.

Some might say that these were manipulations that had started before they ever came to authority, manipulations practised by their predecessors. Surely the point here is that two wrongs do not make a right.

I kind of share that perception yes, as I feel people without experience of handling power usually bungle it up. Not that those with experience don't, but at least they know how to manage optics better when they do that.

How do you think they would acquire this knowledge? Unless they get to power?

I have serious reservations on that 2002 thing, but don't feel for one moment that I have any kind of understanding with Modi on this. What gets me is that, the precursor event has conveniently left collective minds of people. I know this is what aboutery, yes I do but what happens to objectivity when we don't put all facts forward?

Do you know why I dislike Congress so much? They are the ones who taught these dirty tricks to every party we got today. Except Jan Sangh aren't every other party, a split from them?

Being in power for so long, they are the ones who pit one community against another shamelessly to stay in power. You can't just wish away the resentment, when this happens particularly in a country like ours.

We are looking at BJP as a standalone here, all I am asking is to consider the environment they are operating in.

Again I humbly accept, two wrongs never make it right as you said. Sadly this is the world we are in right now, and I pray and hope people understand this more. At least the coming generations, that these motherfucking politicians are just using them to keep their stoves burning. (Profusely apologize to you and everyone for my French)

 

[El Sidd]

I disagree.

India can and will probably overrun Pakistan's eastern section of the Indus valley. It is a different discussion whether India is capable of holding on to those territories. A study into Pakistan's defensive lines would provide a more comprehensive understanding of Pakistan's doctrine of deterrence and resistance.

India finds herself in advanced implementation stages of her 2 front cold start doctrine.

 

[nahtanbob]

He meant that they will be given alms in perpetuity by sympathetic oil-rich countries.

No intention of running a viable country, only an improvement in 'asking' skills.

@Titanium100 thinks money is free. there is a hidden cost to the Chinese projects/Saudi hydrocarbon sales on deferred terns

This is data on the IMF loans
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Largest-IMF-Programs_tbl1_314545562

IMF staff reaches agreement with Ukraine for $15.6bn loan

If approved, as expected, the Ukraine programme would be the IMF’s biggest loan to a country involved in an active war.

www.aljazeera.com

Argentina gets biggest loan in IMF's history at $57bn

Strict restrictions on funds include commitment to zero deficit for 2019 and limits on central bank actions

www.theguardian.com

 

[Titanium100]

I disagree.

India can and will probably overrun Pakistan's eastern section of the Indus valley. It is a different discussion whether India is capable of holding on to those territories. A study into Pakistan's defensive lines would provide a more comprehensive understanding of Pakistan's doctrine of deterrence and resistance.

India finds herself in advanced implementation stages of her 2 front cold start doctrine.

This is where I disagree.. They will not throw themselves in offensively or even charge in offensively nope otherwise they will open their troops to be vanished instantly either getting trapped in mountainous regions or tactical nuked meaning their armed forces could vanish hence why India is in defense posture..

1st due to tactical nukes and 2nd terrain.. If they were to get trapped deep inside Pakistan it is guraanteed they will vanish in these circumstance where there equipment won't function as properly.

India has been in defense posture since 2021 and there main tactics is to goad Pakistan into the offensive and trap them inside the north.

They don't have militants in India hence if there armed forces is finished the war is probably finished but not for Pakistan the civilians are as much of a threat as the army.

Hence India will always protect the Snakes head and won't lightly leave themselves in a positions where they can tactically get outmanouvered if they were to throw in 1 million men that will be the best gift Pakistan could have as they can quickly eliminate them and then plan for counter offensive..

It is like playing chess where you have voluntarily entered the Kings kill zone.. Tactical nuke the 1 million men and move forward and hit them on the counter by splitting your forces by losing these 1m men alone the Indian armed forces will be stripped to the bones

 

[El Sidd]

This is where I disagree.. They will not throw themselves in offensively or even charge in offensively nope otherwise they will open their troops to be vanished instantly either getting trapped in mountainous regions or tactical nuked meaning their armed forces could vanish hence why India is in defense posture..

1st due to tactical nukes and 2nd terrain.. If they were to get trapped deep inside Pakistan it is guraanteed they will vanish in these circumstance where there equipment won't function as properly.

India has been in defense posture since 2021

Indian desperation is growing faster than you can imagine. By the end of the decade she will have no other option but to flood Pakistan.

Whose honeywashing who is anyone's guess.

 

[indushek]

That 'if' is a rather large assumption, and not true, in my personal opinion.

As for the so-called voices of reason or of intellect getting unmasked, some examples might help. Unfortunately, one reason why we must agree to disagree, harassing students in JNU of a leftist persuasion, assaulting students within the library of Jamia Millia Islamia, harassing to the point of suicide dalit students in Hyderabad, encouraging hate speech, and turning a blind eye to the riots that ensued, describing farmers agitating against an egregious handing over of agricultural trade to a crony capitalist, arresting individuals who had nothing to do with riots incited by the ruling party, and holding them in detention for nearly three years now without even chargesheets being filed, the exposure of the most damning evidence against one of those being discovered as manipulation of data on his computer by the police, effectively murdering an 80 year old man with no connection with this incident, by denying him a water bottle with a sipping straw, disregarding very senior ex-servicemen for calling their bluff on the events on the border with China..... Would these qualify for being called voices of reason or intellect, and would what happened to them qualify for the act of being unmasked?


Is this true, locally?


Is this true, locally?

One obvious thing is that every two bit warlord took advantage of the artificial divisions created by the defenders against them.

When we say that it is hoped that future generations should remember this, it sounds ironic. Our heroes of 2002 and 2014 are precisely future generations to those earlier divisive elements. When is this consciousness of the damage done in the past supposed to kick in?


Could you explain further?

Why is it as assumption? What other choices did public have back then, other than voting to Congress?

I am not aware of the Jamia University incident or the ex Service man incident either, but did read on the JNU stuff a bit. TBH I keep away from any news these past few years, that get me all worked up. There is so much shit already in running a family lol. I will never call such actions reasonable, but then what is new in our country? Every party when in power shamelessly helps its factions and minions, and punishes the other side.

Of course it's not, why do you think we are still a third world country?

The highlighted part, aren't you reading history with a lens of present? How can you or I know, what the actual situations back then where with certainty?

Oh about the map, I meant the whole subcontinent and not just South of India when I talked about the warlords and incursions. Given my earlier post about being a Southie, I didn't want anyone thinking I was meaning just he Southern part that am from.

PS about the examples: Is it not true that most of the Universities, and intelligentsia have been peddling only the Left version in every walk of life? When you push the other side out so much, they will turn crazy like in our Country. But then how many people even get that, a healthy debate can be had without demonizing others.

 

[Titanium100]

Indian desperation is growing faster than you can imagine. By the end of the decade she will have no other option but to flood Pakistan.

Whose honeywashing who is anyone's guess.

From a tactical point of view and conventional military manvouring it would be suicidal for them to throw in offensively unless it is insignificiant low numbers which can't much more then to bait Pakistan into India itself but other then that if they need any realistic offensive against pakistan they have to throw in 1m men which will be the best gift Pakistan can have because they will be able to take them out within an hour with Tactical nuke it could be such a significiant mistake that it could at the end be the single decision that has decided the war.. They are in defense posture and have been in that position for awhile not seeing them changing that