India Ahead : How will PAF counter IAF - FGFA/PAKFA ?

[deckingraj]

He's a little confused right now. No F16 has ever scored a kill against an F22. There has been an F-18 Growler and not the super hornet that scored a kill agianst the F22 in a war game.

Also the low frequency radars although capable of detecting F22 would not detect at at huge distances and due to the low frequency nature, would not be able to detect it accurately, so lock on would not be possible.

And then again, infrared missile although very capable have a very limited range of 20-30 kms on average. F22 would have fired all its missiles a lot earlier and would have returned back too.

This is exactly my understanding about F22....Thanks for re-asserting it...

 

[SomeGuy]

He's a little confused right now. No F16 has ever scored a kill against an F22. There has been an F-18 Growler and not the super hornet that scored a kill agianst the F22 in a war game.

Nope, I'm not confused.

An F-16 has scored a kill against a raptor - the excuse that the USAF gives is that this was due to an F-16 regenrating during the excercise, but you have to wonder.....

I'm aware of the E/A-18 Growler scoring a missile kill against the raptor by using heavy jamming (I just forgot to mention it that's all), but I have read reports of a super hornet getting a raptor in its sights.....

Alert 5 - Military Aviation News: F/A-18F guns down F-22A

 

[SomeGuy]

This is exactly my understanding about F22....Thanks for re-asserting it...

Nobody doubts that the F-22 is the most advanced AC in the world and there are strategies designed at trying to combat it.

What I'm trying to point out is that these strategies, as ineffective as they may be against the Raptor, will have a higher chance of countering a lesser stealth aircraft like the PAK-FA.

Low frequency radar, awacs, infrared and advance SAMs are not out of reach for Pakistan.

 

[TechLahore]

Tech Lahore Sir i musy saty i am enjoying this conversation with you...a meaningful discussion always chenge your perception about people from across the border...Unfortunately i am stilll in disagreement

That's fine. Your theory can be tested 10 years hence once the FGFA is operationalized in the IAF.

Unless and until you don't have effective measures against FGFA your fighters would not cross Indian Air Space...They are fighters not suicide bombers or else there is high chance you would loose them without achieving their mission... Your ground troops would be pretty much without Air Cover because of same reasons... indian strategist would get a free run on your ground troops because PA would get involved the moment IA will put its first step in Pak...If you look at so

How deep into India do you think our ground troops would be? They would be covered by AWACS, SAMs and CAPs. Jamming and ECM will also be in play in this scenario. And if we are talking post 2020, there is a high likelihood J-XX will be part of the picture. I haven't brought this up yet in my argument because I think all of this is nonsense anyway... a full fledged war across international boundaries with both sides making significant inroads onto the others territory and large scale airstrikes/missile strikes happening is really not a possibility in my opinion due to reasons I have stated previously.

called Cold Start this is what we are looking for.... In fact it would be a dream come true for Indian Military Brass...They would love to have a Go after your military installations knowing you would not have effective Air Support and they are backed with planes like FGFA...

This is where is see FGFA doing its job...

Let's say you are correct. If the military installations are deemed strategic or important, or if the losses inflicted are great, there will be a first round of retaliation involving cruise and ballistic missiles - possibly conventional. If this triggers wider repercussions then you are back to the nuclear scenario. You keep trying to present the FGFA as uniquely capable of inflicting very limited damage. What I am trying to get across to you is that you have that capability today in cruise missiles. But you can't/won't/don't use it. There must be something behind this... right? Even with the FGFA your limited strike capability won't be increased. Your full-scale war capabilities will increase. That scenario is a lose-lose anyway.

No doubt about it Sir...However would you agree using nukes is not a child game??? There is no doubt that its Pakistan who will decide what is nuclear threshhold, similarly everything cannot be nuclear threshold...

No, but at the same time, nukes have not been developed as decoration pieces either. "Everything" cannot be deemed to cross the nuclear threshold, but a small, limited action in the disputed territories is the only type of engagement that will probably not exceed this threshold.

Ummm i disagree...It was the involvement of Air Force that helped India changed the outcome of conflicts like Kargil...I would be surprised if Air Force role can be nullified be it a limited conflict... You got to have a counter measure against planes like FGFA otherwise you would never know where to engage your planes to hit supply lines of IA where as PA supply lines would always be under IAF pounding...

No, actually it was a political decision on the part of Pakistan to disengage which changed the course Kargil took.

No way can India Pak win a conventional war....However it is the limited wars where the ball game would change by leaps and bounds...

You might think so. I don't. Let's end this here now. It's gone on too long. If you are right we'll find out in ten years when the FGFA is operationalized. Till then, I'll relax and let the J-XX be developed and S-300/S-400, which China already reportedly possesses, "proliferate" ;-)

China Defense Blog: First Photos of S-400 in China.

 

[Icarus]

Well the strategy will depend on the events leading up to armed conflict, 1)Pakistan MAY try a pre-emptive strike like in 1971.
2)If India has already attacked, mobile SAM units MAY be used to counter intrusions, we know that SAMs have a good chance, remember F-117 shot down during Serbian conflicts.
3)Pakistan MAY choose to "Gang Up" on Indian aircrafts, i.e: sending up every available aircraft to maximise chances of kills.
4)Getting J-XX from China is not feasible until 2025(Minimum), it must be kept in mind that J-XX is still a concept.
5)Pakistan MAY choose to take aircrafts on lease from Iran, Jordan, UAE. Iran and Jordan have helped Pakistan in the Past as well.
The possibilities are endless.

 

[lhuang]

China does not have the S-400, the HQ-19 is an improved S-300.

Russia has only just begun inducting it themselves.

Kakgeta: You're not getting aircraft for any other country. Especially not the UAE, the aircraft from the other countries will be just sitting ducks for IAF.

I'm not optimistic about the J-XX being inducted before the 2020s in the PLAAF, if proved wrong, well all the better.

And it is certainly not going to be in the PAFs hands (if we even decide to sell it, it'll be far too expensive for Pakistan) until our requirements are met 2030+

 

[su-47]

Well the strategy will depend on the events leading up to armed conflict, 1)Pakistan MAY try a pre-emptive strike like in 1971.
2)If India has already attacked, mobile SAM units MAY be used to counter intrusions, we know that SAMs have a good chance, remember F-117 shot down during Serbian conflicts.
3)Pakistan MAY choose to "Gang Up" on Indian aircrafts, i.e: sending up every available aircraft to maximise chances of kills.
4)Getting J-XX from China is not feasible until 2025(Minimum), it must be kept in mind that J-XX is still a concept.
5)Pakistan MAY choose to take aircrafts on lease from Iran, Jordan, UAE. Iran and Jordan have helped Pakistan in the Past as well.
The possibilities are endless.

1) Very much a possibility. Destroying IAf aircraft in Pathankot, Ambala etc will severely dent India's offensive capabilities. However, IAF Phalcons change the dynamics from 1971. Any PAF aircraft coming in will be detected and IAF will have time to scramble. And most of the PAF aircraft will be bomb laden, with minimal Air-to-air weapons, making life easier for IAF.

2) SAMs will pose a problem, but not an insurmountable one. IAF does use the KH-31 ARM. Plus, Pak doesn't have high altitude SAMs, so IAF can fly above the SAM threat.

3) Again, IAF is numerically superior, so the viability of this strategy is questionable. If a lot of pakistani air craft are coming in, they will be easily detectable, and IAF can scramble more aircraft to intercept them.

4) True. The question of leasing J-10s from China comes to mind, but I have no idea whether China will interfere or not, so lets leave that out for now

5) Iran helped during the Shah's regime. The current Iranian regime is arguably closer to India than Pak. So most likely, Iran will stay neutral. Jordan might help, but depends on whether USa stops them or not.

 

[deckingraj]

Nobody doubts that the F-22 is the most advanced AC in the world and there are strategies designed at trying to combat it.

What I'm trying to point out is that these strategies, as ineffective as they may be against the Raptor, will have a higher chance of countering a lesser stealth aircraft like the PAK-FA.

Low frequency radar, awacs, infrared and advance SAMs are not out of reach for Pakistan.

Sir couple of assumptions in your post...

a) You are convinced that PAK FA would not be a true 5 generation... You are saying that FGFA would lack stealth as compared to Raptor...It may or may not be true however will it be that less to make it vulnerable agaisnt exisiting countermeasures???

Don't you think the whole programme would be a big failure then???

b) As said nothing is invincible...Counter measures are just strategy that may or may not work but gives you options to try and take down enemy planes...However there has to be a program in practice or in planning or in pipeline for it... Is there something that you can shed some light on???

 

[deckingraj]

You might think so. I don't. Let's end this here now. It's gone on too long. If you are right we'll find out in ten years when the FGFA is operationalized. Till then, I'll relax and let the J-XX be developed and S-300/S-400, which China already reportedly possesses, "proliferate" ;-)

Agreed...it was good sharing thoughts with you...

 

[notorious_eagle]

I will doubt the fear part... I am sure even though IAF have better plane(MKI) as compared to your F16 Block 52 yet they will have fear about this plane...Having fear is a good sign because it keeps you on toes and don't let you compacent...

And thats exactly what we intend to do, use our tactics and a combination of our assets to take down the MKI's. I have no reason to lie about the fear part, telling you my perspective after having conversations with PAF pilots. The only thing that worries PAF a bit is the MKI's endurance, it means PAF will have to fly additional sorties to match its endurance. It was not sheer luck that Post Mumbai MKI was intercepted and locked on 4km inside Pakistan's territory, a plane like MKI travels that distance in less than a second. Our ground radar system is simply top notch(TPS 77 and YL2), with the addition of AWACS their is nothing you guys can throw at us that we wont detect long before.

However when it comes to a true 5 generation Aircraft all these strategies fail...As of now there is hardly any Radar in PAF inventory that can detect a 5 generation Air Craft...and any plane that can take it on.... Also there is no current programme in PAF as a counter measure.. This is what i am asking for....

Indeed, but you are assuming that PAK FA will have an RCS comparable to the F22. That is not going to be the case, looking at the visuals from the prototype its simply not possible for the PAK FA to have an RCS comparable to F22. Gambit did an excellent analysis and in my opinion you should read his posts regarding the RCS of PAK FA. Their is no radar in any country's arsenal that can detect a plane like F22 at the precise time, by the time the F22 is detected it will be too late.

As far as the countermeasures are concerned, i guess we can send PAF an email and tell them to publish their tactics regarding PAK FA , just kidding. Its impossible to know the countermeasures that PAF will employ because PAF hardly ever makes its intentions public, but my guess is that they would work on early detection for PAK FA. Work on Radars and IRST that will detect the PAK FA at the necessary time to employ the proper countermeasures, PAKFA does not has an RCS of F22 so that makes things a bit easier for our war planners to come up with the proper tactics. Its best we leave the argument here my friend, only time will tell what the capabilities of PAK FA are and what deterrents PAF employs.

 

[deckingraj]

Its best we leave the argument here my friend, only time will tell what the capabilities of PAK FA are and what deterrents PAF employs.

Agreed...Good talking to you as well..

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

ohhh come on MODS u know whats goin on here.
aint these things discussed .......(let me count).........countless times.
still u letting our neighbors to mess in here,THE SAME OLD MESS.

 

[gambit]

Nope, I'm not confused.

An F-16 has scored a kill against a raptor - the excuse that the USAF gives is that this was due to an F-16 regenrating during the excercise, but you have to wonder.....

I'm aware of the E/A-18 Growler scoring a missile kill against the raptor by using heavy jamming (I just forgot to mention it that's all), but I have read reports of a super hornet getting a raptor in its sights.....

Alert 5 - Military Aviation News: F/A-18F guns down F-22A

You should so 'wonder' but keep in mind that such doubt works both ways. We may never knows the exact details regarding those claims, but here are two of my previous explanations on how this is possible...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/792296-post169.html

These Luneberg enhancers on the F-22s are ejectable. They have been used in exercises to show those who goes up against the F-22 the radar difference between a 'normal' size adversary and when the F-22 eject a pod. Pilots and air traffic controllers are always shocked after an F-22 eject a pod. Even when the F-22 is within visual range, on the radar screen, the difference between when the same aircraft is with pod and when it is without still results in surprises. This is why some F-15 pilots have reported that they cannot get a radar lock on the F-22 even when they have visuals of their targets.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/806003-post11.html

Air controllers WORLDWIDE requested that the B-2, F-117 and F-22 flies into their areas of responsibilities equipped with Luneburg Lens lest they see the 'stealth' fighter too late. Some F-15 pilots reported they could NOT attain good radar locks on their visually acquired F-22 adversaries, suggesting they were fighting against non-Luneburg equipped F-22s. Many ships, assorted small marine crafts and even cell phone towers are equipped with Luneburg Lens radar reflectors for safety reasons.

As usual, I do provide sources so the readers can do their own research into the technicalities of my explanations and make up their own minds.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Gambit, do you think its possible for the F16C to get a kill against the F22 one on one. That is F22 without the Luneberg Enhancers, i ask this because i remember reading that the pilot of F16C got a clean kill against the F22 whereas the pilot for Growler bended quite a few rules before getting the kill.

 

[Icarus]

1) Very much a possibility. Destroying IAf aircraft in Pathankot, Ambala etc will severely dent India's offensive capabilities. However, IAF Phalcons change the dynamics from 1971. Any PAF aircraft coming in will be detected and IAF will have time to scramble. And most of the PAF aircraft will be bomb laden, with minimal Air-to-air weapons, making life easier for IAF.

Too true, the Phalcons will indeed prove to be a problem, but i believe that the Ra'ad cruise missile can be employed to counter this problem, It can be fired from stand-off range i.e: 350km, this means aircrafts can deliver their load without venturing too deep into hostile airspace.
The ALCM can be used to target Runways or Ground Control tower, anything that will make it difficult for IAF to send their birds up.

2) SAMs will pose a problem, but not an insurmountable one. IAF does use the KH-31 ARM. Plus, Pak doesn't have high altitude SAMs, so IAF can fly above the SAM threat.

If the planes are flying over SAM range then they wouldn't be able to drop their load either, unless they are using precision guided instruments.(To the best of my Knowledge)

3) Again, IAF is numerically superior, so the viability of this strategy is questionable. If a lot of pakistani air craft are coming in, they will be easily detectable, and IAF can scramble more aircraft to intercept them.

Indeed IAF is numerically superior but we have seen from previous conflicts that IAF chooses to save the Best for another day, eg: in 71 the IAF tried their best to keep their Mig 21s as far away from action as possible. So I can guess that the IAF will choose not to send Mig 29s and SU-30s up to often. But this is merely speculation ofcourse......

4) True. The question of leasing J-10s from China comes to mind, but I have no idea whether China will interfere or not, so lets leave that out for now

Even if China chooses not to interfere, we can expect favours from them, such as when they sold us A-5s at throw away prices of 1 million dollars per piece.

5) Iran helped during the Shah's regime. The current Iranian regime is arguably closer to India than Pak. So most likely, Iran will stay neutral. Jordan might help, but depends on whether USa stops them or not.

The Shah was indeed a vehement supporter of Pakistan and relations have indeed remained luke warm since the Islamic Revolution in Iran.
But the two nations are pretty close, Pakistan provided Iran with Centrifuges in 1986 and still supports Iran's right to run a peaceful Nuclear programme. I think though that you are correct here, even if the general population does have sympathy for Pakistan, the govt will refrain from taking sides, they have too many interests in both countries to risk by taking sides........