India a partner, not ally: US envoy

[Bull]

more like:

India is a partner in our proxy war against China, not an ally: US envoy

Very true.

Well to believe there wud be a loyal and divine relationship btw two countries at any moment of time wud be asking for too much.

 

[blitz]

Caste system tolerance?

Why is democracy mentioned twice also?

Do Dalits have liberty? Should Kashmir have liberty to plebiscite?

This isn't an attempt at spam - these were just the questions that came to mind, when reading that statement.

Why doesn't Pakistan practice before preaching ? A good start will be to hold Plebiscite in Balochistan and Waziristan. A second step would be to hold general elections in the country. Another nice thing to do would be to stop bombing your own citizens with fighter bombers and helicopters. Use police and ground forces to quell rebellion, like India. Using tanks and planes makes it seem as if Pakistan is at war with itself, if there even is a single entity such as Pakistan.

Then, and only then, come and talk to Indians about democracy and liberty and freedom and respect for its citizens.

Makes sense ?

 

[Adux]

Well said!!!!

 

[Contrarian]

Why doesn't Pakistan practice before preaching ? A good start will be to hold Plebiscite in Balochistan and Waziristan. A second step would be to hold general elections in the country. Another nice thing to do would be to stop bombing your own citizens with fighter bombers and helicopters. Use police and ground forces to quell rebellion, like India. Using tanks and planes makes it seem as if Pakistan is at war with itself, if there even is a single entity such as Pakistan.

Then, and only then, come and talk to Indians about democracy and liberty and freedom and respect for its citizens.

Makes sense ?

Excellent post mate. Cannot possibly agree more! Quoted to highlight your post!
P.S: Repped you.

 

[roadrunner]

Yes, there is democracy!!! far more than you have ever experienced
Kashmir peblicite !!! we have done a lot of debating here, and pakistan has been found wanting, read it up. and post your views on that thread.
We have our problems, agreed but not that fits your propaganda.

I didn't criticize his comments on democracy, just everything else like tolerance and liberty. Though India or Bharat I should say does allow some people to vote (others are prevented from voting, others are prevented from having their own plebiscite vote), the Booker Prize winner's viewpoint that India aka Bharat is a fake democracy has a lot of weight behind it - if nearly 50% of your country lives on an energy intake less than sub saharan africa, how can this be called a fair vote? - are poor Indians aka Bharatis simply stupid that they vote for people that will make them starve? Another pointer about Indian "democracy" is that several of the states are on the verge of civil war - why are these states on the verge of civil war when they should be able to express their opinions freely - obviously democracy doesn't extend to all states. Why does Kashmir not have the right to self determination when it's part of the world's largest democracy? Why is there a raging civil war there? All these questions suggest that India aka Bharat is a sham democracy. However, I never questioned the comment on democracy, just asked why it was repeated twice.

Dalits have more freedom than most other people

Muahahhaah!
http://www.indianet.nl/dalitatroc0509.html#01
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/13/india15303.htm (nice recent report on the hidden apartheid in India aka Bharat - even your Sikh prime minister has said the Hindu practise of caste is akin to Apartheid, so save it!)
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/09/22/stories/2002092205531000.htm

you have given so much freedom for ahemdiya's, shia's, Hindu's of Pakistan!!!!!!!
Ya right!!!!

Dud, you must have weed coming out your ears..You do know that Zulfiqar Bhutto was Shia, Gen Yahya Khan was a Shia Qizilbash, heck even Benazir's Shia, and they've ruled the country for nearly as long as Sunni leaders despite being a small minority in the population.

Hindus in Pakistan are mainly Dalits - think about why they did not move to India during Partition and chose to stay behind in Pakistan - because they KNEW in India they were be discriminated against by Indians and the government. Hindu Dalits have all the rights of Muslims in Pakistan.

Now Ahmadiyyas, though they are heretic, and under the law blasphemy is illegal also have been given many ministerial positions. The point is that Ahmadiyyas are not looked down upon in Pakistan, they are looked upon as heretics, but nobody parades them naked or chops off their hands as the upper castes do if a Dalit steals an orange from his orchard.

Why doesn't Pakistan practice before preaching ? A good start will be to hold Plebiscite in Balochistan and Waziristan. A second step would be to hold general elections in the country. Another nice thing to do would be to stop bombing your own citizens with fighter bombers and helicopters. Use police and ground forces to quell rebellion, like India. Using tanks and planes makes it seem as if Pakistan is at war with itself, if there even is a single entity such as Pakistan.

Then, and only then, come and talk to Indians about democracy and liberty and freedom and respect for its citizens.

Makes sense ?

Ahh, but Pakistan DOES hold plebiscite and elections every 4 years in these areas. The ANP is the Pakhtoon Nationalist Party, the Baloch Liberation Front which was led by Bughti competed in the 2002 national elections - neither of them had any popular support (I believe Bugti's party received perhaps 4 seats out of some 60 or so seats or around that much) Tell me, which autonomous party is represented in Indian Kashmir

Also Pakistan does have elections every 4-5 years - i'm expecting the next one fairly soon. Last election was in 2002 for your info.

 

[Bull]

Though India or Bharat I should say does allow some people to vote (others are prevented from voting, others are prevented from having their own plebiscite vote), .

Do you have anything with you that justifies this claim of ' denial of vote ' ?

the Booker Prize winner's viewpoint that India aka Bharat is a fake democracy has a lot of weight behind it - if nearly 50% of your country lives on an energy intake less than sub saharan africa, how can this be called a fair vote? - are poor Indians aka Bharatis simply stupid that they vote for people that will make them starve? .

Democracy is the right to chose your leader. Speaking abt half energy levels, it wud be nice if you could check what was it when we started voting in '47.

Another pointer about Indian "democracy" is that several of the states are on the verge of civil war - why are these states on the verge of civil war when they should be able to express their opinions freely - obviously democracy doesn't extend to all states. .

Several States? Civil War? There are countires that use APC's attack Helis, Fighter jets in their won capital and still say they are not in the verge od collapse or civil war. There is nothing like that happening anywhere in India. Such hardwares arent used even in Kashmir.

Why does Kashmir not have the right to self determination when it's part of the world's largest democracy? Why is there a raging civil war there? .

Read up the '00s of threads in this forum you will get an answer.

All these questions suggest that India aka Bharat is a sham democracy. .

When you havnt experience one, hw do you what one shud be?

 

[intruder]

Also Pakistan does have elections every 4-5 years - i'm expecting the next one fairly soon. Last election was in 2002 for your info.

Having elections is one thing and accepting the results is another ... remember 1970 elections .. bhutto refused to accept the 'democratic result'.... don't remember here is link to refresh your memory..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_general_election,_1970

and secondly where does generals come in picture if we talk about election ... can you please explain !!

 

[roadrunner]

Do you have anything with you that justifies this claim of ' denial of vote ' ?

This is not an issue of physical restraint, it's more, the Dalits can be abused at will by their upper castes, so they have to vote what the upper castes want else they get paraded naked etc.

But there have been many instances of whole villages being forcibly denies to vote.

The backward classes and the dalits have also been denied the right to vote. Belwa village and its surrounding areas are known for booth capturing and election related fraud. During the February 2002 election, people from these communities were brutally assaulted when they went to vote. Belwa will hold another election on 17 August 2005. Mr Giri, Dr Lenin's associate has filed his nomination and is expected to be a strong contender due to his popularity amongst the backward community.
http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2005/1203/?print=yes

Democracy is the right to chose your leader. Speaking abt half energy levels, it wud be nice if you could check what was it when we started voting in '47.

But this is it. People are not free to choose their leaders. They do as the upper castes tell them to, because if they do not, they will be beaten. I ask you, why would starving people vote for leaders who will keep them starved - why not vote for a dalit?

Several States? Civil War? There are countires that use APC's attack Helis, Fighter jets in their won capital and still say they are not in the verge od collapse or civil war. There is nothing like that happening anywhere in India. Such hardwares arent used even in Kashmir.

Helis, fighter jets are used under certain scenarios and depending on the accuracy of the hardware. Pakistan is ahead IMHO in this area. But anyway, you can find a list of the "terrorist" outfits in India aka Bharat here

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/terroristoutfits/index.html

I'd say there's thousands of people dying every year in India in terrorist related violence in several states of India. It's nearly as bad as Iraq.

Read up the '00s of threads in this forum you will get an answer.

There's lots of threads, but none answers the question. What happened to Kashmir's plebiscite and the binding UN resolutions to hole this plebiscite?

When you havnt experience one, hw do you what one shud be?

Common sense.

 

[Contrarian]

Funny, a Pakistani talking about democracy and blaming India for not being democratic

This has got to tickle some funny bones !!

 

[roadrunner]

Funny, a Pakistani talking about democracy and blaming India for not being democratic

This has got to tickle some funny bones !!

Democracy is one form of governance, not necessarily the best, depends on your point of view. Pakistan is doing better now under dictatorship than it did so under democracy - there's obvious reasons why this is. Same could apply to India but it can afford to bring corrupt people into power since the country is very big. However, I think it's only a democracy in name, the majority vote is the illiterate vote and the lower caste vote who are forced to do as the upper castes tell them, else they'll be beaten. It's no democracy.

 

[Bushroda]

Democracy is one form of governance, not necessarily the best, depends on your point of view.

Its a form of government where people have a choice as to who rules them. If not, then what is the point of having attained freedom if one form of autocratic government is simply replaced by another.

Pakistan is doing better now under dictatorship than it did so under democracy - there's obvious reasons why this is. Same could apply to India but it can afford to bring corrupt people into power since the country is very big.

No where you have a perfect system in place. If you wish for that you'll never have one. India can never be ruled by any autocratic government because of the diversity it holds.

However, I think it's only a democracy in name, the majority vote is the illiterate vote and the lower caste vote who are forced to do as the upper castes tell them, else they'll be beaten. It's no democracy.

Even an illiterate is smart enough to make out the rising prices of onions when the BJP was wiped out in all the four state elections in 98 and was on the verge of collapse in center. Indian government wouldn't stand as mute spectator if the americans decide to launch hellfires. Musharaff on the other hand is still supporting America even though americans are responsible of killing several innocent Pakistani citizens(even without apologizing).

As for lower caste, many senior upper caste civil servants are forced to take orders from Mayawati, a dalit chief minister. R Venkataraman, K R Narayannan, both dalits were the president of India and the head of the armed forces.

So,its very much a democracy. After all several hundred millions (non-Indians) across the world arn't disillusioned to call it the biggest democracy in the world.

 

[roadrunner]

Its a form of government where people have a choice as to who rules them. If not, then what is the point of having attained freedom if one form of autocratic government is simply replaced by another.

One perfect example is India. Most of the people are illiterate, low caste people that have their hands cut off if they disobey a Brahminical order to vote Sonia Gandhi. In such a case, would India benefit from autocratic Dalit rule where one Dalit rules the country and then another, evening out the injustices meated out by the upper castes. In my opinion Dalit rule is a better system of government for India than the current "demoncracy".

No where you have a perfect system in place. If you wish for that you'll never have one. India can never be ruled by any autocratic government because of the diversity it holds.

Democracy might not be perfect, but it works better in some places than others. India is not one of them - not yet..and neither is Pakistan. Diversity has no influence on democracy. In fact the more diverse, the less of a say the minorities get, one of the reasons for Partition.

Even an illiterate is smart enough to make out the rising prices of onions when the BJP was wiped out in all the four state elections in 98 and was on the verge of collapse in center. Indian government wouldn't stand as mute spectator if the americans decide to launch hellfires. Musharaff on the other hand is still supporting America even though americans are responsible of killing several innocent Pakistani citizens(even without apologizing).

How do you know the Indian government wouldnt stand by? They allowed and worshipped the British when they came in and killed everyone..why not the Americans?

As for lower caste, many senior upper caste civil servants are forced to take orders from Mayawati, a dalit chief minister. R Venkataraman, K R Narayannan, both dalits were the president of India and the head of the armed forces.

1 token Dalit doesn't mean much. It's majority votes that count, and the majority have to do what the tyrannical upper castes desire.

So,its very much a democracy. After all several hundred millions (non-Indians) across the world arn't disillusioned to call it the biggest democracy in the world.

It's not a democracy imho, or that of the Booker Prize Winner.

 

[Adux]

One perfect example is India. Most of the people are illiterate, low caste people that have their hands cut off if they disobey a Brahminical order

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is this possible I am a Lower Caste Deevran. My hands are here still, how is this possible. I am a congressman my father an ex-MLA. I have 3 or 4 Brahmins working under me, 2 of them are my Manager's, and My house maid is also a Brahmin!!!!!!!!!!!!

MY HANDS MY HANDS !!!! they are still here. But HOW HOW HOW.


What friggin idiot. More dangerous than a fool, is the one who has a half assed knowledge with a friggin agenda. Ban Me or give me a infraction for the little things as usual MODS!!! But please get some intelligence into this idoit, so we can have a decent conversation about the REAL problems affecting my country Inida.

 

[roadrunner]

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is this possible I am a Lower Caste Deevran. My hands are here still, how is this possible. I am a congressman my father an ex-MLA. I have 3 or 4 Brahmins working under me, 2 of them are my Manager's, and My house maid is also a Brahmin!!!!!!!!!!!!

MY HANDS MY HANDS !!!! they are still here. But HOW HOW HOW.


What friggin idiot. More dangerous than a fool, is the one who has a half assed knowledge with a friggin agenda. Ban Me or give me a infraction for the little things as usual MODS!!! But please get some intelligence into this idoit, so we can have a decent conversation about the REAL problems affecting my country Inida.

Dud, you're in denial. Dalits supposedly have the right to vote, and they form a huge part of the electorate. The lower castes combined make up the majority of the electorate. Common sense will tell you, that they would vote for a party full of lower castes. Yet always the upper castes win the elections. You call this democracy? The Dalits arent allowed to vote freely is the simple conclusion from this.

What's my agenda, and stop screaming like a little kid that can't counter a factual argument - some high quality discussion not childish tantrums.

 

[Bushroda]

All words, No substance.. It doesn't make an iota of difference in reality even if you keep viewing things from behind the tinted glass.

One perfect example is India. Most of the people are illiterate, low caste people that have their hands cut off if they disobey a Brahminical order to vote Sonia Gandhi.

Where did you even read such a ludicrous thing. I only hope its metapherical. Even if so, hugely exaggerated & bias. So called Sonia Gandhi's Brahminical order didn't pass through in Uttar Pradesh when her rival Mayawati walked into power even though Sonia & her brahmin son, Rahul made record number of rallies. Now ask her to cut off the hands of Dalit. She might probably lose her head.

In such a case, would India benefit from autocratic Dalit rule where one Dalit rules the country and then another, evening out the injustices meated out by the upper castes. In my opinion Dalit rule is a better system of government for India than the current "demoncracy".

Such a case doesn't exist in the first place. Go & read about the benefits that Dalits enjoy over so called "Upper-Caste". If having an unchallenged 27% reservation in every government institute/Engineering college & Administrative jobs is injustice then I cannot understand for what kind of justice you are looking for.

Democracy might not be perfect, but it works better in some places than others. India is not one of them - not yet..and neither is Pakistan.

I am not sure about Pakistan but it has worked fairly well in India atleast. In 60 years of history, the 2 years of martial law is considered as the black period in Indian politics. Indira Gandhi who brought martial law was voted out of power in the next general election. She couldn't even win her own seat in Rae-Bareilly even though being a former PM. If this isn't showcase of democracy then what is? India rejected dictatorship in 1977 & there is no way that they are going to accept it in 2007.

Diversity has no influence on democracy. In fact the more diverse, the less of a say the minorities get, one of the reasons for Partition.

This is a very ignorant statement. If only minorities had less of a say in democracy, State government of Maharashtra would've wiped out all the slums from Mumbai a long time back. None of the political parties would've been trying to court Muslims all the time. Chief Minister of West Bengal wouldn't have had to revert back on Nandigram SEZ. India wouldn't have had to hold back the disinvestment policy.

How do you know the Indian government wouldnt stand by? They allowed and worshipped the British when they came in and killed everyone..why not the Americans?

Ask the Americans & see. When they are not even allowing American warship to dock on Chennai port, allowing them to kill Indians would be a far cry.

1 token Dalit doesn't mean much. It's majority votes that count, and the majority have to do what the tyrannical upper castes desire.

Yeah!!! the tyrannical upper-caste were busy playing blind man's buff when these token Dalits sneaked their way to the highest corridor of power.

It's not a democracy imho, or that of the Booker Prize Winner.

It doesn't matter if a p!ssed off Booker prize winner, who was disgruntled on Supreme court's judgement over Narmada Dam, doesn't considers India as a democracy. She isn't the most intelligent person in the world & ofcourse not so when a huge majority considers India as the biggest democracy.