India a partner, not ally: US envoy

[Adux]

Bugger off idiot,

You have no clue, which is the high caste all ways winning,

WHo is getting more reservations. You have no clue about politics, but you have a generelized view and you blow up isolated incidents out of propotion to fit your vision of things.

Do you know what is BSP, DMK, CPI(M), CPi(L)...the list goes on. Dalit attrocities are happening, I am not saying it isnt, but do you also know that attrocities against higher caste are happening. Welcome to India.

I am a lower caste, some of the members of this very board have met me in real life, and I am successful and from a political background. I will translate Deevran into English, I am a fisherman by caste. But I run Export houses and Institutions. Again Welcome to India. I am from a place which had the worst Casteist attrocities that ever was, Communist came and eradicated them, We have the world's first democracticly elected communist government of EMS Nambodooripad in 1947. St.Thomas landed in Cochin port, and converted so many Hindu's, The great saints churchs are here in my state, Muslim Traders came to kerala for spices and lot of Malayalee(people of Kerala) converted islamism by their choice(not sword) cuz of their love of the religion. Muslims are the most powerful community in my state, though politically the church is more powerful. You have no clue, that is a fact. Dont talk generalizitic idoicracy, we have history which you dont understand, cuz your vision is narrowed. SO as i said bugger off

It will take lot more out of you to understand India.Dont assume that you are an intelligent fellow while the rest of the world isnt. Everything aint a conspiracy my friend.

 

[Adux]

Arundhati Roy, My fellow Malayalee, the good for nothing Hippie Commie *****. Arrgh.

 

[Bushroda]

Dud, you're in denial. Dalits supposedly have the right to vote, and they form a huge part of the electorate. The lower castes combined make up the majority of the electorate. Common sense will tell you, that they would vote for a party full of lower castes. Yet always the upper castes win the elections. You call this democracy? The Dalits arent allowed to vote freely is the simple conclusion from this.

BSP, SP, DMK, AIADMK, Telegu Desam, JD, JD(U), Lok Dal & many others.. all these parties represent lower caste & most of them are holding power in their respective states. The rest(Congress, BJP, CPI etc) are national parties.

Here is the list of members of Parliament in India

http://www.sarkaritel.com/parliament/lok_sabha/member_of_parliament_a.htm

See for yourself how many are dalit & upper-caste.

 

[Bull]

This is not an issue of physical restraint, it's more, the Dalits can be abused at will by their upper castes, so they have to vote what the upper castes want else they get paraded naked etc. .

They are paraded naked in villages for various of reasons as falling in luv, dowry, votes???. But hw many have you heard, a hundred cases in a year, India is huge. '00 adds upto nothing.

And if you feel all low caste are maltreated you arewrong. There are lot of them who have come out of it. These kinds of malpracticies exists only utter poor areas.

I ask you, why would starving people vote for leaders who will keep them starved - why not vote for a dalit? .

You have no right to ask us about voting. We atleast have a working democracy. Vote for dalit. How many dalits are there in the Parliament and legislative assemblies? Go figure yourselves out.

Helis, fighter jets are used under certain scenarios and depending on the accuracy of the hardware. Pakistan is ahead IMHO in this area. But anyway, you can find a list of the "terrorist" outfits in India aka Bharat here .

Well not in the capital. Kashmir and North East is as bad any terrain in Pakistan,infact more dangerous and treachorous. Have u seen India using any of those?

I'd say there's thousands of people dying every year in India in terrorist related violence in several states of India. It's nearly as bad as Iraq..

Well lets count Pakistan and see. We might have to rephrase your earlier sentenmce and say "the situation in Iraq is as bad as in Pakistan".

There's lots of threads, but none answers the question. What happened to Kashmir's plebiscite and the binding UN resolutions to hole this plebiscite? Common sense.

We flushed it down our toilets. You have problem come take it from us.

 

[Bull]

Dud, you're in denial. Dalits supposedly have the right to vote, and they form a huge part of the electorate. The lower castes combined make up the majority of the electorate. Common sense will tell you, that they would vote for a party full of lower castes. Yet always the upper castes win the elections. You call this democracy? The Dalits arent allowed to vote freely is the simple conclusion from this.

What's my agenda, and stop screaming like a little kid that can't counter a factual argument - some high quality discussion not childish tantrums.

You mean a 'shia shudnt vote for a sunni' type of case. It doesnt happen in India, sorry.

 

[roadrunner]

Where did you even read such a ludicrous thing. I only hope its metapherical. Even if so, hugely exaggerated & bias. So called Sonia Gandhi's Brahminical order didn't pass through in Uttar Pradesh when her rival Mayawati walked into power even though Sonia & her brahmin son, Rahul made record number of rallies. Now ask her to cut off the hands of Dalit. She might probably lose her head.

Dud, you're missing the point!

It doesnt matter where Sonia Gandhi rallies. It makes no difference. It depends where her upper caste supporters are who make the Dalits vote for her (else they get threatened with beatings or work removals).

Such a case doesn't exist in the first place. Go & read about the benefits that Dalits enjoy over so called "Upper-Caste". If having an unchallenged 27% reservation in every government institute/Engineering college & Administrative jobs is injustice then I cannot understand for what kind of justice you are looking for.

Dud! Even your own Sikh prime minister admits the Dalits are discrminated against publicly. He even calls it apartheid. If he can be honest, at least you should be too.

I am not sure about Pakistan but it has worked fairly well in India atleast. In 60 years of history, the 2 years of martial law is considered as the black period in Indian politics. Indira Gandhi who brought martial law was voted out of power in the next general election. She couldn't even win her own seat in Rae-Bareilly even though being a former PM. If this isn't showcase of democracy then what is? India rejected dictatorship in 1977 & there is no way that they are going to accept it in 2007.

Read above. Indian democracy is not a will of the people. If it were the lower castes would have their own party which would cruise to victory in the next election. As it stands Indian democracy is only democracy amongst the upper castes who represent a small percentage of the country.

This is a very ignorant statement. If only minorities had less of a say in democracy, State government of Maharashtra would've wiped out all the slums from Mumbai a long time back. None of the political parties would've been trying to court Muslims all the time. Chief Minister of West Bengal wouldn't have had to revert back on Nandigram SEZ. India wouldn't have had to hold back the disinvestment policy.

I don't think Muslims have much of a say in Indian politics. For example, there's plenty of evidence of discrimination in the workplace against Muslims in India. Here's a TIME magazine link - where is their democracy??

Census figures paint a bleak picture of their plight. In rural India, 29% of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India's population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030811/story.html

Ask the Americans & see. When they are not even allowing American warship to dock on Chennai port, allowing them to kill Indians would be a far cry.

Dud, not allowing an American warship to dock in peacetime is no big deal. When an American warship is on your territorial borders and threatens to wipe you out, unless you let it dock, let's see how India reacts then. I can guarantee it'll give a very warm welcome like it did to the British.

Yeah!!! the tyrannical upper-caste were busy playing blind man's buff when these token Dalits sneaked their way to the highest corridor of power.

1 or 2 Dalits in not very high positions of power won't do anything. They need equal representation in parliament, in the judiciary etc, then there will be equality. 1 or 2 is just for political correctness.

It doesn't matter if a p!ssed off Booker prize winner, who was disgruntled on Supreme court's judgement over Narmada Dam, doesn't considers India as a democracy. She isn't the most intelligent person in the world & ofcourse not so when a huge majority considers India as the biggest democracy.

Yep, attack the messenger, she's disgruntled, despite mentioning some clear points and facts.

 

[roadrunner]

BSP, SP, DMK, AIADMK, Telegu Desam, JD, JD(U), Lok Dal & many others.. all these parties represent lower caste & most of them are holding power in their respective states. The rest(Congress, BJP, CPI etc) are national parties.

DMK is for Tamils not for untouchables.

BSP would be the target party which would promote the interests of the majority of the population of Bharat aka the lower castes, yet they do badly in elections. Why is that? Surely, the Dalits and lower castes should be voting BSP, but they vote for the upper castes who oppress them! This isn't a democracy, this is forced voting by the upper castes on the lower castes.

I don't follow what you mean .. Isn't BSP a national party? Why can't it be part of a national vote, rather than a state vote?

 

[bhangra12345]

DMK is for Tamils not for untouchables.

BSP would be the target party which would promote the interests of the majority of the population of Bharat aka the lower castes, yet they do badly in elections. Why is that? Surely, the Dalits and lower castes should be voting BSP, but they vote for the upper castes who oppress them! This isn't a democracy, this is forced voting by the upper castes on the lower castes.

I don't follow what you mean .. Isn't BSP a national party? Why can't it be part of a national vote, rather than a state vote?

Nope, BSP is not a party of much consequence at the national level. Only 1 state party. It gets max 5% votes in other states.
The population of SC(dalits) and STs(tribals) is around 24% of India. Wanna check

census table for india="http://www.censusindia.net/t_00_005.html"]
BSP represents only SC not STs. So at its max level, it can represent around 16% of Indian population. It is not the majority in whatever you want to see.
Now how will a quarter of population get majority, by combining with others. So give and take... which I guess you dont see in Pakistan where its winner take all.

BSP do you know, with whom it sided last election, huh the horror, Brahmins

Do you what was its slogan last time 'tilak, taraju aur talwar, maro unko jhoote char'
With that slogan it gets a guarenteed 20% of votes but not enough for majority, so what new slogan is it this time 'Haati nahin Ganesh hai... Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh hai'

Before it SP ruled UttarPradesh, its combination is Muslims and Yadavs(a part of Backward castes). No single entity representing only one thing at a time can get votes for a majority. It always is a compromise. If you completely exclude someone from you, you lose. Why did BJP lose big time in UP? Because it completely alienated 20% of votes(muslims) and others(BSP) chipped away its upper caste vote block.

This is but what is a drop in the ocean of Indian politics. If you can get its nuances, well you have just started a journey of 1 step in 1000 mile of understanding Indian politics.

Good luck.

Just so that you understand somethings, why dont you up on reservation system in India and other things. Oh, yes regarding the Brahmin blood suckers as you call them, read this piece

Brahmins in India="http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm"

Source for link of up politics="http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/may/11maya.htm"

P.S: This site does not allow me paste urls so I represented them as above(I should have bloody 5 posts to paste them). Sorry for the inconvenience

 

[bhangra12345]

DMK is for Tamils not for untouchables.


I don't follow what you mean .. Isn't BSP a national party? Why can't it be part of a national vote, rather than a state vote?

DMK is for tamils except Brahmins.

To explain BSP's stage more clearly, it participates in both state and central parliamentary elections. It gets majority in Uttar Pradesh(a single state) and can win a max of 50 seats out of 550 seats in India's parliament.

At present it has only around 20 seats out of 550 seats in parliaments. In essence, it is of no consequence at national level.

Technically it is a national party because it got more than 5% votes in 5-6 states.(please note the numbers may be off by 2-3). Simply it means, wherever it contests in India, its election symbol is reserved. Thats about its national stature. It is a primarily a non-entity out of Uttar Pradesh.

 

[bhangra12345]

Dud, you're missing the point!

It doesnt matter where Sonia Gandhi rallies. It makes no difference. It depends where her upper caste supporters are who make the Dalits vote for her (else they get threatened with beatings or work removals).

Oh really, thanks for the information on my own country.

Dud! Even your own Sikh prime minister admits the Dalits are discrminated against publicly. He even calls it apartheid. If he can be honest, at least you should be too.

and your own president said that pakistani women get raped to get canadian visa. Should I agree with him? The primeminister is a bloody politician and he has to say such things for getting something which you dont do normally(vote).

Read above. Indian democracy is not a will of the people. If it were the lower castes would have their own party which would cruise to victory in the next election. As it stands Indian democracy is only democracy amongst the upper castes who represent a small percentage of the country.

Read about the percentages I quoted, and then there are many many factors. FYI we have 5 chiefminister who are christian out of 30 and their population percentage is 3%. It is a case of whether you are politically mobilized and many many factors. For example punjab has 30% SCs but rest are all sikhs. So their votes do not form majority in either state or central elections. Please read up, I cannot point to one factor all over India. There are points which will vary from state to state, hell they vary inside a state too.

I don't think Muslims have much of a say in Indian politics. For example, there's plenty of evidence of discrimination in the workplace against Muslims in India. Here's a TIME magazine link - where is their democracy??

Oh really! thanks.

Census figures paint a bleak picture of their plight. In rural India, 29% of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India's population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.

so 26% hindus and 29% muslims, oh my god great discrimination.
When people instead of going for modern education, prefer going into informal trades right from child hood, this will be the case. I personally know 2 examples. I am from south. The upper castes over here are so much discrimated against. Do you want to know, my relative has to get around 300 rank in medical entrance for getting into a college of her choice, while a SC gets the same seat even when they get 5000 rank. and add to that 33% reservation for women. You get the idea right. Even then, the realization that only higher education can get us over this cycle has been ingrained in us. None of us even believe that we have a remote chance of getting Govt employment. Thankfully the supreme court, said reservation will stop at 50%. Do you know even now, Tamilnadu says it wants 70% reservation. ******* 70% and the bloody thing is the castes that have reservation can compete in non-reserved category also. The religious minorities normally subvert this reservation by establishing what are called minority education institutions.

Dud, not allowing an American warship to dock in peacetime is no big deal. When an American warship is on your territorial borders and threatens to wipe you out, unless you let it dock, let's see how India reacts then. I can guarantee it'll give a very warm welcome like it did to the British.

Do you remember 1971?? when America sent its enterprise, we showed them the finger. You can say whatever you wish to say, but ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

1 or 2 Dalits in not very high positions of power won't do anything. They need equal representation in parliament, in the judiciary etc, then there will be equality. 1 or 2 is just for political correctness.

My uncle is a contractor, do you know what he says, the IAS(civil servants) dalit lobby is very strong. Rest of the details he quoted are personal, so I cant quote him more. With 27% in all govt offices, in parliament, in assemblies, what more do you want, when their population percentage is 27% only?

 

[roadrunner]

Nope, BSP is not a party of much consequence at the national level. Only 1 state party. It gets max 5% votes in other states.
The population of SC(dalits) and STs(tribals) is around 24% of India. Wanna check

census table for india="http://www.censusindia.net/t_00_005.html"]
BSP represents only SC not STs. So at its max level, it can represent around 16% of Indian population. It is not the majority in whatever you want to see.
Now how will a quarter of population get majority, by combining with others. So give and take... which I guess you dont see in Pakistan where its winner take all.

Hello? Anyone home? This is my whole point isn't it for the 100th time. BSP if it is a pro Dalit party, SHOULD GET THE DALIT VOTE BUT DOES NOT. The reason it does not is? Because the dalits are forced to vote for the upper castes and Congress..

Have to get through the rest - let's hope it's of better quality than this opening parangraph or two.

 

[Adux]

What this idiot doesnt understand is a Hindi Speaking Dalit party in UP cant win elections in a malayalm speaking state!!!!! Half-assed. Coalition politics is a reality. A Pakistani Muslim would find more in common with a Hindu North Indian rather than Malayalee Muslim south Indian. i am getting a head ache of this guy's complete half-assed knowledge, The national parties are congress, BJP, SP and CPI, all of them together cant make enough seats, this where regional parties come to the foray, THE Reason we have more Minister's than any other country in the WORLD.


A Tamil speaking dalit will vote for a tamil speaking upper caste than rather vote for a Hindi speaking Mayawati. Idiocracy
Cant understand Politics, doesnt know anything but bits and pieces here and there.

 

[bhangra12345]

Hello? Anyone home? This is my whole point isn't it for the 100th time. BSP if it is a pro Dalit party, SHOULD GET THE DALIT VOTE BUT DOES NOT. The reason it does not is? Because the dalits are forced to vote for the upper castes and Congress..

Have to get through the rest - let's hope it's of better quality than this opening parangraph or two.

First read what I just said in the same post otherwise shoo of..........

This is but what is a drop in the ocean of Indian politics. If you can get its nuances, well you have just started a journey of 1 step in 1000 mile of understanding Indian politics.

There is not only caste involved, language, religion, and everything else that you have under the sun involved. Dont make ANY generalizations. BSP tried to represent only the SCs of UP only and only. It doesnt figure in parts of the state in which it rules. It got 20% of vote which was not enough, so tried to get 30% by wooing brahmins. This is only in UP, nowhere else. DONT generalize.

Edit: I will give you an example. In UP, yadavs and muslims are voteblocks for SP, in bihar the same combination is the voteblock for RJD(laloo prasad). In most of the other states, muslims are represented by congress. In a single state, muslims of one area are represented by one party and else where other parties. For example in Andhra Pradesh state, MIM represents muslims only in hyderabad. In rest of the state, they are divided in two other parties(congress and TDP). So f*king dont generalize.

 

[roadrunner]

^^Earth calling bhangra12345, come in bhangra12345. The very least you could do is to stop posting on this forum under the influence of weed. You are just confirming my whole friggin' point - that the Dalit vote is under-represented in Indian politics, when they (Dalits) SHOULD be voting for parties like SBP. They do not vote for them, because they are OPPRESSED and FORCED into not voting for them. Now don't say I am not fair & persistent with you slow folk.

 

[bhangra12345]

"But then let us not get facts in the way when dealing with India, we simply shouldnt......."


bug off, road runner.

A dalit can be hindu malayali from malabar living presently in tamilnadu. He will vote differently from a hindu hindi bihari living in tamilnadu. If you cant get it into your thick skull, the only hope is break the skull off, like this.

P.S: Quote is by someone on the same forum. I seem to remember it as Samudra. If it is by someone else, it is by that person only.