Independence Day celebrations in Toronto, Canada

[Spring Onion]

still did not answer my question about laws and gays !

and as for your question

20 Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.


goes against

1) Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation- (a) refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ameer-ul-Mumineen", "Khalifatul- Mumineen", Khalifa-tul-Muslimeen", "Sahaabi" or "Razi Allah Anho"; (b) refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ummul-Mumineen"; (c) refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family "Ahle-bait" of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ahle-bait"; or (d) refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship a "Masjid"; shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine. (2) Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahori group (who call themselves "Ahmadis" or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation refers to the mode or form of call to prayers followed by his faith as "Azan", or recites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

298-C. Person of Qadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith:

Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name), who directly or indirectly, poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

what is wrong there? for all civilians there is punishment for disrupting public order and look at the above read carefully the qadyanis' claims can jeopardize entire Muslim society leading to a civil war .

1. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) refers to the companions of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani as Sahaba and his wives as Mother of the Believers (Ummahatul Muminin).
   
   
2. "Mirza Ghulam took the liberty of making demeaning and vulgar remarks against him and his honored mother, rejected his miracles, belittled his mission and denied his return before the Day of Judgment. It is such unbecoming teachings that have resulted in hateful retributions by extremist Christians evangelical groups against Muslims, Prophet Muhammad(SAW), and Islam."
3. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) teaches that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was also the expected Hindu lord, Krishna.
   

there are many other things which are all against basic beliefs of Islam even the Kalima Shahda you guys reffer to ghulam mirza as Muhammad (nauzubillah).

 

[Ehsan]

what is wrong there? for all civilians there is punishment for disrupting public order and look at the above read carefully the qadyanis' claims can jeopardize entire Muslim society leading to a civil war .

1. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) refers to the companions of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani as Sahaba and his wives as Mother of the Believers (Ummahatul Muminin).
   
   
2. "Mirza Ghulam took the liberty of making demeaning and vulgar remarks against him and his honored mother, rejected his miracles, belittled his mission and denied his return before the Day of Judgment. It is such unbecoming teachings that have resulted in hateful retributions by extremist Christians evangelical groups against Muslims, Prophet Muhammad(SAW), and Islam."
3. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) teaches that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was also the expected Hindu lord, Krishna.

there are many other things which are all against basic beliefs of Islam even the Kalima Shahda you guys reffer to ghulam mirza as Muhammad (nauzubillah).

This is not a religious thread so dont make it so we have discussed all this plenty of times !

@WAJsal would someone put a stop to religious debate here too !

 

[WAJsal]

@WAJsal would someone put a stop to religious debate here too !

Do not reply ,or tag mods, there is a reason why religious debates are not allowed, only further dividing us.

 

[Spring Onion]

This is not a religious thread so dont make it so we have discussed all this plenty of times !

@WAJsal would someone put a stop to religious debate here too !

This is a very much on topic. Since you are crying about facts then lets look at views andf facts from both sides .

The article/clauses of the constitution/law you have mentioned very well revolve around these facts.

All these claims by ghulam mirza are basis for promulgation of such laws in Pakistan.

I have studied your books and i am ready to debate with you on each and every point.

qadyaniat is total negation of Islam. you qadyanis call entire Muslim ummah as unbelievers because we do not accept ghulam mirza and his teachings

 

[That Guy]

what is wrong there? for all civilians there is punishment for disrupting public order and look at the above read carefully the qadyanis' claims can jeopardize entire Muslim society leading to a civil war .

1. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) refers to the companions of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani as Sahaba and his wives as Mother of the Believers (Ummahatul Muminin).
   
   
2. "Mirza Ghulam took the liberty of making demeaning and vulgar remarks against him and his honored mother, rejected his miracles, belittled his mission and denied his return before the Day of Judgment. It is such unbecoming teachings that have resulted in hateful retributions by extremist Christians evangelical groups against Muslims, Prophet Muhammad(SAW), and Islam."
3. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) teaches that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was also the expected Hindu lord, Krishna.
   

there are many other things which are all against basic beliefs of Islam even the Kalima Shahda you guys reffer to ghulam mirza as Muhammad (nauzubillah).

This debate has more to do with self-identity, and whether the government should have the right to interfere with it, rather than being one of what Ahmedis believe.

Besides, a united Muslim society no longer exists, plus this is about Pakistan as a nation.

 

[Spring Onion]

This debate has more to do with self-identity, and whether the government should have the right to interfere with it, rather than being one of what Ahmedis believe.

Besides, a united Muslim society no longer exists, plus this is about Pakistan as a nation.

if this is about Pakistan as a nation then if you have read all the posts you will agree that most of us members on PDF sided with these qadyanis and their right to celebrate as Pakistanis but despite that the qadyani members in every other such thread are looking for religious sides and religious victim card playing.

and All the points i have posted were in response to his post.

As far as the government has a right or not well in a democracy if the parliament passes a law it has to be implemented. So why don't these powerful qadyany lobby for changing it through the parliament.

above all how would you deal with the public disorder when qadyanis are spreading own version of Quran?

 

[Musafir117]

what is wrong there? for all civilians there is punishment for disrupting public order and look at the above read carefully the qadyanis' claims can jeopardize entire Muslim society leading to a civil war .

1. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) refers to the companions of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani as Sahaba and his wives as Mother of the Believers (Ummahatul Muminin).
   
   
2. "Mirza Ghulam took the liberty of making demeaning and vulgar remarks against him and his honored mother, rejected his miracles, belittled his mission and denied his return before the Day of Judgment. It is such unbecoming teachings that have resulted in hateful retributions by extremist Christians evangelical groups against Muslims, Prophet Muhammad(SAW), and Islam."
3. Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) teaches that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was also the expected Hindu lord, Krishna.
   

there are many other things which are all against basic beliefs of Islam even the Kalima Shahda you guys reffer to ghulam mirza as Muhammad (nauzubillah).

Stop lying and spreading false information they recite same kalima which recite by normal Muslims and stop acting like a god what's in their heart and what's not. @Ehsan request to avoid to post such threads which always go wrong directions and heat up that's why it's ban in PDF. @Jaanbaz @Pakistani Exile.
@waz @Jango feel free to lock the two threads it's already heating up and served it's purpose.

 

[syedali73]

This is a very much on topic. Since you are crying about facts then lets look at views andf facts from both sides .

The article/clauses of the constitution/law you have mentioned very well revolve around these facts.

All these claims by ghulam mirza are basis for promulgation of such laws in Pakistan.

I have studied your books and i am ready to debate with you on each and every point.

qadyaniat is total negation of Islam. you qadyanis call entire Muslim ummah as unbelievers because we do not accept ghulam mirza and his teachings

What certain people fail to realize it that these laws are there to protect Ahmedis as a separate minority. In-fact the constitution of Pakistan has given them a true identity, an identity they would have lost otherwise. These laws are there to protect them from the majority and ensure that Ahmedis are recognized minority in Pakistan. These laws do not prohibit them from studying in schools, colleges, universities; they do not prohibit them from applying and getting jobs in public or private sector; they do not prevent them from buying or selling property. What is the fuss here?

The trouble they talk about is mostly invited by themselves by calling and preaching their faith (I have all the respect for their faith) as Islam for not only in Pakistan, in all Islamic countries their faith is not recognized as Islamic faith. It is like I do not believe in Jesus Christ or Marry or Trinity and start calling myself as a Christian and proselytizing my faith as Christianity. A reaction from the Christian community would be imminent against these claims of mine. Take for example Bohri or Aga Khanis. They do not call their places of worship as Masjid, they call them as Jamaat Khana. They also do not call for prayers by traditional 'azaan' and nobody bothers. Above all, they do not declare those who do not believe in their faith as non-Muslims but Ahmedis just do that.

 

[Spring Onion]

Stop lying and spreading false information they recite same kalima which recite by normal Muslims and stop acting like a god what's in their heart and what's not. @Ehsan request to avoid to post such threads which always go wrong directions and heat up that's why it's ban in PDF. @Jaanbaz @Pakistani Exile.
@waz @Jango feel free to lock the two threads it's already heating up and served it's purpose.

lies? how prove it. doesnt ghulam mirza in his own books called himself Muhammad and ahmed and hence the Kalima of shahda he means himself?

also is it not a truth that ghulam mirza declared all those Muslims as kafir who do not accept him as prophet?

you are a qadyani can you tell me did you read all your books of 'revelation"? if yes then let me post word by word from these and if i am wrong then prove it

 

[That Guy]

if this is about Pakistan as a nation then if you have read all the posts you will agree that most of us members on PDF sided with these qadyanis and their right to celebrate as Pakistanis but despite that the qadyani members in every other such thread are looking for religious sides and religious victim card playing.

Such as? I'm being serious here.

and All the points i have posted were in response to his post.

I haven't completely looked at the conversation, so sure.

As far as the government has a right or not well in a democracy if the parliament passes a law it has to be implemented. So why don't these powerful qadyany lobby for changing it through the parliament.

Tyranny of the majority. Just because a majority say 2 +2 = 22, doesn't mean they're right. Democracy is not just majority rule, its about making sure everyone is represented.

As for a lobby. If such a lobby exists and its powerful, it probably would have passed a change in the constitution, but since no such thing has happened, we can logically conclude that either the lobby is weak, or does not exist.

above all how would you deal with the public disorder when qadyanis are spreading own version of Quran?

Other religions and sects are allowed to preach their own ideas, why make an exception here? What makes you think there would be public disorder? Also, from what I know, they promote their own TRANSLATION of the Qur'an, not that they have a brand new, different Qur'an.

 

[Spring Onion]

Such as? I'm being serious here.


I haven't completely looked at the conversation, so sure.


Tyranny of the majority. Just because a majority say 2 +2 = 22, doesn't mean they're right. Democracy is not just majority rule, its about making sure everyone is represented.

As for a lobby. If such a lobby exists and its powerful, it probably would have passed a change in the constitution, but since no such thing has happened, we can logically conclude that either the lobby is weak, or does not exist.


Other religions and sects are allowed to preach their own ideas, why make an exception here? What makes you think there would be public disorder? Also, from what I know, they promote their own TRANSLATION of the Qur'an, not that they have a brand new, different Qur'an.

all other religions do not come up with lies about Islam and they teach their own non-Muslim faith. All other sects have same prophet and believe in finality of Prophethood on Muhammad (PBUH).

qadyanis can preach as a different faith.
yes there would be public disorder just try to give qadyanis free hand to come up with claims of a new prophet every now and then and you will see how this becomes a public disorder bigger than terrorism .

NO it is not their translation but false insertions. the translation of Quran throughout the world is the same only you can find difference with that of qadyanis

 

[Ehsan]

@That Guy and the funny thing is the irony in his signature

نہ جانے کون کب مار دے مجھے کافر کافر کہہ کر، شہر کا شہر مسلمان بنا پھرتا ہے۔

 

[Spring Onion]

@That Guy and the funny thing is the irony in his signature

نہ جانے کون کب مار دے مجھے کافر کافر کہہ کر، شہر کا شہر مسلمان بنا پھرتا ہے۔

nothing funny in my signature. I do NOT support killing of anybody on the basis of faith hence the signature. I may have difference of opinion with you but that is all. There is no such killing in Islam on the basis of faith.

 

[Pakistani E]

Never mind. Nothing to say on this thread.

 

[Spring Onion]

Never mind. Nothing to say on this thread.

it would have been better if you guys like us had stick to this line


Happy Independence to all my Pakistani Brothers and Sisters. Pakistan Payandabad.