Imran has literally taken PPP by SURPRISE - and no one noticed.

[Syed1.]

I think you folks are misreading what's actually going on. PTI's fight with PPP, or rather the federal government's fight with the main province they cannot control directly and politically is all about provincial funds and 18th division of revenues. Punjab has signed on since they are effectively run by IK himself, KPK is theirs so no fight there etc. But Sindh has resisted and this has been going on for a long time now.

Karachi and its situation is bad and PPP is rightly facing flak, but the federal and Sindh government tussle is largely irrelevant and based on finances, Karachi just another political tool being used in the game right now. I don't see any productive or constructive calls coming from the federal government regarding Karachi. IMO karachi needs decentralised and devovled governance. Federal is trying to repeal the 18th which in fact would only damage Karachi at best as it ensures more centralisation and not less, the rest is just bluster and outrage being directed at PPP because of the preceding fight about finances and the 18th.

The federal government have their own scores and books to settle. Ideologically PTI's current love of presidential style and ordinance driven rule, 18th repeal and more centralization is the last thing Karachi needs. Karachi needs to be free of Sindh level governance and have it local, it does not need to be used as a tool by those who want to centralise power for other reasons. If you're a Karachiite, PTI is not your savior nor is the federal government, you need to fight for your own city and local governance. Be free of PPP, and don't fall victim to being used as a political tool by the federal government, that is all.

Now Noon leaguey will tell us what's best for us?


Please mind your own business and not talk about things you don't know about. 18th amendment is a tool used by the PPP to enslave Karachi. Do a survey in Karachi and 99% of the people would tell you their lives were better before the 18th amendment. Hold 10 elections in Karachi and PPP will lose 10 times. This is the very reason why PPP will never want any improvement in the city. This is also why they have systematically destroyed Musharraf's local government model that was working so well for Karachi.

A national city like Karachi needs central rule so that it is not subject to the whims of Sindhi waderas. Obviously your hate for IK is clouding your judgement.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Please mind your own business and not talk about things you don't know about. 18th amendment is a tool used by the PPP to enslave Karachi. Do a survey in Karachi and 99% of the people would tell you their lives were better before the 18th amendment. Hold 10 elections in Karachi and PPP will lose 10 times. This is the very reason why PPP will never want any improvement in the city. This is also why they have systematically destroyed Musharraf's local government model that was working so well for Karachi.

You telling people to only comment when informed about a subject is rather rich. Please explain to me, uneducated as I am how repealing the 18th will save Karachi? You're suggesting/supporting it, let's hear your arguments. You are a blind supporter of PTI so I don't need to take lessons from you on partisanship.

Also, I'm not here arguing in favour of PPP, so pls come off it. You always fail to grasp the very basics of any post. Please read more carefully, why do you always require dictation? Here's what I said about them in the post you quoted:

Karachi and its situation is bad and PPP is rightly facing flak,
....
If you're a Karachiite, PTI is not your savior nor is the federal government, you need to fight for your own city and local governance. Be free of PPP, and don't fall victim to being used as a political tool by the federal government, that is all.

So please learn to read properly, it's the least you could do.

A national city like Karachi needs central rule so that it is not subject to the whims of Sindhi waderas. Obviously your hate for IK is clouding your judgement.

Completely and utterly disagree. You need local government and management. And decentralization and devolution. I've made several suggestions for this in the past:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/are-...ven-up-on-karachi.663206/page-3#post-12272267
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/is-karachi-not-a-part-of-sindh.672911/page-11#post-12474141

I don't care frankly if PPP, PTI, PML, MQM, or some other party rules Karachi. In the end, Karachi should be run for its own people by its own people, and the way to do this is to decentralise and devolve power to Karachi. Your suggestion of centralization is completely nonsensical and suggests you've taken federal propaganda at face value, that is incredibly naive of you.

 

[Syed1.]

You telling people to only comment when informed about a subject is rather rich. Please explain to me, uneducated as I am how repealing the 18th will save Karachi? You're suggesting/supporting it, let's hear your arguments. You are a blind supporter of PTI so I don't need to take lessons from you on partisanship.

Also, I'm not here arguing in favour of PPP, so pls come off it. You always fail to grasp the very basics of any post. Please read more carefully, why do you always require dictation? Here's what I said about them in the post you quoted:



So please learn to read properly, it's the least you could do.


Completely and utterly disagree. You need local government and management. And decentralization and devolution. I've made several suggestions for this in the past:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/are-...ven-up-on-karachi.663206/page-3#post-12272267
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/is-karachi-not-a-part-of-sindh.672911/page-11#post-12474141

I don't care frankly if PPP, PTI, PML, MQM, or some other party rules Karachi. In the end, Karachi should be run for its own people by its own people, and the way to do this is to decentralise and devolve power to Karachi. Your suggestion of centralization is completely nonsensical and suggests you've taken federal propaganda at face value, that is incredibly naive of you.

Haha sure sure Mr. Expert we should listen to you who probably hasn't lived a day in Karachi.


The 18th amendment very clearly says that powers will be devolved down to local level, but did that happen? Is that ever going to happen? Will Sindh centric PPP ever want predominantly Urdu speaking Karachi to ever have a voice of their own?


Therefore, that is why I suggested the Musharraf system worked well. Karachi had local representation and local nazim and their funding came directly from the center. In the special case of Karachi Mush cut out the middle man of the provincial government. That is what people of Karachi want.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Haha sure sure Mr. Expert we should listen to you who probably hasn't lived a day in Karachi.

I haven't, but why don't you try refuting the arguments I made if they're wrong? I know you can't, they're sensible suggestions. You're instead parroting nonsense which you yourself evidently don't understand. You're being arrogant here, but you've got so little to show for it.

The 18th amendment very clearly says that powers will be devolved down to local level, but did that happen? Is that ever going to happen? Will Sindh centric PPP ever want predominantly Urdu speaking Karachi to ever have a voice of their own?

So you're problem with the 18th is that it has not led to enough decentralisation (I agree with this). You want more devolution of power, again I agree have said this in previous posts.

And please explain if 18th fails to provide enough devolution, how repealling it (removing all devolution) helps? That makes no sense AT ALL!

And then in the same thread you said this?...

A national city like Karachi needs central rule.

How does that work? What is this magical form of centralised but decentralised, federal but devolved, oxymoronic form of government? I think you are completely contradicting yourself here.

Therefore, that is why I suggested the Musharraf system worked well. Karachi had local representation and local nazim and their funding came directly from the center. In the special case of Karachi Mush cut out the middle man of the provincial government. That is what people of Karachi want.

I agree with the calls for devolution as you have said here. I've gone further and said that PPP should not run Karachi from Sindh level. It should have even its own assembly and a presidential system headed by its own mayor.

Your posts have wrongly assumed that I am somehow advocating something else. While you've also contradicted yourself here multiple times, and failed to explain why you're for removing the 18th. Your posts have made no sense thus far. I'm sorry to put it in such stark terms.

 

[The Diplomat]

The main problem is that Karachi is poorly understood in far off Islamabad and the power centers of the Punjab.
The rest of Pakistan does not understand the underlying socioeconomic and political dynamics of Karachi. They just think that it is a simple problem of the people of Karachi voting for the PPP or MQM. It is deeper than that.
And for your information, MQM has been washed out from Karachi. The rest of the population literally spits in their face today. I have literally seen expletives being spray painted on the boundary wall of an MQM ex-MPA. That same MPA can now be seen moping around in dirty pyjamas or smoking cigarettes at the tea dhaba.
So, in short, MQM is history. PPP does not have a mandate in Karachi except in 2/3 constituencies. But, PPP has kept the rest of Sindh so pathetically underdeveloped that for all practical reasons it is still in 2000 BC. The people of interior Sindh are literally living like animals or perhaps worse, as bonded labourers. Karachi is the only thorn in their side because they know that Karachi's educated urban middle class has swung towards PTI and it is only a matter of time before the rest of Sindh does so as well albeit slowly. The PPP already has the end in sight and so it is just a matter of intensifying the plunder along the lines of the British in India.

That is the same problem with every province. You can't win Punjab by just winning Lahore. The people of interior Sindh need waking up and they need to be shown that there is hope, provided you are willing to change your voting habits. I have a lot of friends from Karachi, from my school days in Qatar. I know how anti PPP and MQM they are however the problem still lies in the masses. Karachi has in the previous elections voted for the same parties over and over again, despite knowing those parties have done nothing to help Karachi or Sindh.

 

[The Diplomat]

Therefore, that is why I suggested the Musharraf system worked well. Karachi had local representation and local nazim and their funding came directly from the center. In the special case of Karachi Mush cut out the middle man of the provincial government. That is what people of Karachi want.

What Pakistan needs is a change from Parliamentary system to Presidential. Pakistan also needs to create several provinces.

 

[Syed1.]

I haven't, but why don't you try refuting the arguments I made if they're wrong? I know you can't, they're sensible suggestions. You're instead parroting nonsense which you yourself evidently don't understand. Your arrogance is immense yet you've got so little to show for it.



So you're problem with the 18th is that it has not led to enough decentralisation (I agree with this). You want more devolution of power, again I agree. And then in the same thread you said this?...

And please explain if 18th fails to provide enough devolution, how repealling it (removing all devolution) helps? That makes no sense AT ALL!



How does that work? What is this magical form of centralised decentralised, federal devolution, oxymoron government? I think you are completely contradicting yourself here.



I agree with the calls for devolution as you have said here. I've gone further and said that PPP should not run Karachi from Sindh level. It should have even its own assembly and a presidential system headed by its own mayor.

Your posts have wrongly assumed that I am somehow advocating something else, I don't know what frankly, your comments have made no sense. While you've also contradicted yourself multiple times, and failed to explain why you're for removing the 18th. Your posts have made no sense thus far. I'm sorry to put it in such stark terms.

That's because you are unable to understand them.


Let me make it simple for you in bullet points perhaps then you will be able to wrap your head around it.

1. PPP never wins from Karachi and never will.
2. Karachi population is 45% Urdu speaking, 20% Punjabi and Pathan each, and the rest of the 15% is Sindhi Baluchi, Bengali, Kashmiri etc.
3. It's in the benefit of Sindh centric PPP to enslave Karachi since 95% of their tax revenue comes from there.
4. 18th amendment clearly says devolve power but PPP has not and will not do it.
5. People of Karachi want a local government but direct funding from the center.
6. Sindh government allocated a measly Rs. 2b in Karachi development budget for FY21.



I hope these 6 points are easy enough for even someone like you to understand who has zero ideas of the ground realities in Karachi but strutting around giving expert advise.

 

[Jungibaaz]

That's because you are unable to understand them.


Let me make it simple for you in bullet points perhaps then you will be able to wrap your head around it.

Yes please let's hear it.

1. PPP never wins from Karachi and never will.

I know that. Thanks for stating the obvious.

2. Karachi population is 45% Urdu speaking, 20% Punjabi and Pathan each, and the rest of the 15% is Sindhi Baluchi, Bengali, Kashmiri etc.

Ditto, thanks. Obvious.

3. It's in the benefit of Sindh centric PPP to enslave Karachi since 95% of their tax revenue comes from there.

I know, that's why I'm advocating Karachi devolution. You also advocated devolution, but contradicted yourself when you said you want centralization. How on earth does that work??

4. 18th amendment clearly says devolve power but PPP has not and will not do it.

It's not incumbent on them alone, it talks about a long term process, but sure. 18th aspires for more devolution. Where did I disagree with this? More importantly, how does this devolution work when you said you want more centralisation? You are contradicting yourself.

5. People of Karachi want a local government but direct funding from the center.
6. Sindh government allocated a measly Rs. 2b in Karachi development budget for FY21.

Agree. Hence why in the past and in this thread I've spoken at some length about the need for Karachi to have devolved assembly, maybe a mayoral style system. Local authorities and local tax collection etc.

You can see it all in the posts I previously mentioned, here and here.

I hope these 6 points are easy enough for even someone like you to understand who has zero ideas of the ground realities in Karachi but strutting around giving expert advise.

Frankly, you've unknowingly made the same points I've made here and in previous threads. Yet, you have contradicted yourself multiple times on here and also tried to attack my post and failed miserably.

By the way, I'd still love to hear how you want both devolution, and less devolution (centralisation) at the same time. How does that work? No need to keep on parroting why Karachi needs devolution, I already agree with you here and said as much several times which you clearly failed to comprehend. And specifically you haven't said how repealing 18th helps Karachi. You made all of these points separately, you contradicted yourself in the former two and never explained the latter.

Please do better next time. This was an exceptionally poor display.

 

[Zibago]

The same IK will beg for the restoration of 18th amendment after the next elections as PTI will be confined to KPK and then he would have to beg PM Maryam/Bilawal for funds for the completion of Peshawar BRT.

20 pmln mpa defected,pmln leadership is begging for acway put of Pakistan,mariam is disqualified and you want think pmln will win Punjab ? Lol

 

[Kabira]

Looking at NFC award criteria, Karachi would get around Rs225b in 2019. Apart from that local taxes. Lets say Sindh keep 50% of revenues from Karachi and rest goes to Karachi in ideal scenario where article 140 of constitution is implemented. Thats another Rs125b.

Now the question is did Sindh government spend Rs350b in Karachi? Not even close lol

Total budget of Karachi was Rs125b. Karachi only get 1/10 of Sindh budget while having 1/3 of population. And I'm not even using figures of some who claim Karachi have 25m population, in that case half of Sindh population live in city. This is beyond ridiculous and PPP cannot live in the past by playing MQM terrorism card forever.

Here is PPP Ghani bragging about Karachi Rs125b budget.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/49...s-rs125-billion-in-new-fiscal-year-says-ghani

 

[Ghazwa-e-Hind]

Please dont glorify this lollypop

Imran Khan only visited streets of Karachi when he needed votes.

PTI collectively does not care about Karachi and its residents. Same with PPP , MQM or PMLN

Karachi is just orphan city that somehow pays most tax in country, despite suffering from servere management crisis.

 

[Mav3rick]

Personally I would love to see PTI move in however in all honesty I don't think there is any way they can. The only way that comes into my mind is through a constitutional amendment, for that they need a two third majority government, which PTI does not have.

The people of Karachi and Sindh need to stop voting for PPP and MQM. PPP is corrupt to the core and when MQM has people like Atlaaf Hussain, why do you need enemies? He is enough.

Well, this time around, people of Karachi have no one for whom we can vote. MQM has been decimated which should not have been done, Minus 1 was the best solution and a better stream of leaders should have been brought forward instead of trying to insert leaders from PTI or PSP as leaders of Karachi. Karachi has not voted PPP in decades but the heavy Sindhi migration into Karachi from interior Sindh all vote for PPP......and they all magically get a domicile to vote in Karachi! PTI is on the path to decimate the entire country, they have already decimated the economy and commerce, led by none other than than the PPP failure Hafeez Shaikh. And the senseless egoistic person at the top is soo into himself that he cannot see what he has done to the country in the past 3-4 years.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

I think you folks are misreading what's actually going on. PTI's fight with PPP, or rather the federal government's fight with the main province they cannot control directly and politically is all about provincial funds and 18th division of revenues. Punjab has signed on since they are effectively run by IK himself, KPK is theirs so no fight there etc. But Sindh has resisted and this has been going on for a long time now.

Karachi and its situation is bad and PPP is rightly facing flak, but the federal and Sindh government tussle is largely irrelevant and based on finances, Karachi just another political tool being used in the game right now. I don't see any productive or constructive calls coming from the federal government regarding Karachi. IMO karachi needs decentralised and devovled governance. Federal is trying to repeal the 18th which in fact would only damage Karachi at best as it ensures more centralisation and not less, the rest is just bluster and outrage being directed at PPP because of the preceding fight about finances and the 18th.

The federal government have their own scores and books to settle. Ideologically PTI's current love of presidential style and ordinance driven rule, 18th repeal and more centralization is the last thing Karachi needs. Karachi needs to be free of Sindh level governance and have it local, it does not need to be used as a tool by those who want to centralise power for other reasons. If you're a Karachiite, PTI is not your savior nor is the federal government, you need to fight for your own city and local governance. Be free of PPP, and don't fall victim to being used as a political tool by the federal government, that is all.

I am sorry but have to disagree here - Say what you want of IK politics but one halal deed he has done is brought Karachi out of local ethic and hateful politics (MQM etc) and joined with a national level party that has roots in two major provinces of Pakistan. Karachi must not go backward on the old mqm path, they need to play at national level and main stream parties like pti and pmln must give them space. As matter of fact we should ask where is PMLN ? Why are they completely absent from Karachi’s political scene? Is this a way of mukmuka with ppp where Punjab remains with Pmln and PPP gets a free hand in Sindh unchallenged! If there is a crime in politics this is one of them for sure. As an opposition party they could have created positive pressure to get certain things done that could help Karachi - but alas they have turned into racist bigoted bunch and consider Karachites as “Syasi Yateem”. I mean when they can get together to pass laws for Bajwas extension, wtf is wrong to find a solution for Karachi? I agree 18th amendment should not be reversed (although financial issues for federal govt must be addressed), but the current status quo of mini kingdoms in provinces is also not acceptable. Powers must be further devolved and big metropolitan must have independent modern city governments. If this requires a martial law to establish it then so be it. I hop IK move in SC to establish local govt gets traction and media must support on this national level issue irrespective of petty political affiliations.

 

[Enigma SIG]

What Pakistan needs is a change from Parliamentary system to Presidential. Pakistan also needs to create several provinces.

We don't need provinces. Each city should be a self governing body in itself. Similar to how the UK has city councils.

https://www.gov.uk/understand-how-your-council-works

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Please dont glorify this lollypop

Imran Khan only visited streets of Karachi when he needed votes.

PTI collectively does not care about Karachi and its residents. Same with PPP , MQM or PMLN

Karachi is just orphan city that somehow pays most tax in country, despite suffering from servere management crisis.

Bro, Lets see where this goes. We need a PERMANENT solution, as I mentioned myself.