Imran condemns indian army's brutality on Kashmiris

[PlanetWarrior]

last time george fernandes traded for dead indian soilders, plz ask him cause he was the making money out of those cofins?
or better leave both kashmirs in the hands of UN ?
cause indian occupied forces are torturing the civilians there!

Dude , Indian soldiers get paid to die if necessary. So do all soldiers, even Pakistani soldiers. Coffin manufacturers make money out of all armies even during peacetimes. Soldiers drop dead in their barracks as well and coffins are needed to cremate/bury them. Stop idolizing George Fernandez on the basis that he made money out of selling coffins to the IA. That is kinda childish. As for Kashmir, if I was responsible for making any decision about that place I would have given it to the Eskimos if they asked for it. I'm extremely generous see. Sadly I am not responsible for deciding the future of Kashmir. The Indian government is. Go take your gripe up with them. Need a number to call ? I believe that there are cheap call rates between Thailand and New Delhi

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong*RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN ON 13 AUGUST 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/1100, PARA 75, DATED THE 9TH NOVEMBER, 1948)

THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the Representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and

Being of the opinion that the prompt cessation of hostilities and the coercion of conditions the continuance of which is likely to endanger international peace and security are essential to implementation of its endeavors to assist the Governments of India and Pakistan in effecting a final settlement of the situation.

Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal

PART I

CEASE-FIRE ORDER

1. The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that their respective High Commands will issue separately and simultaneously a cease- fire order to apply to all forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as of the earliest practicable date or dates to be mutually agreed upon within four days after these proposals have been accepted by both Governments.

2. The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals "forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides).

3. The Commanders-in-Chief of the Forces of India and Pakistan shall promptly confer regarding any necessary local changes in present dispositions which may facilitate the cease-fire.

4. In its discretions and as the Commission may find practicable, the Commission will appoint military observers who under the authority of the Commission and with the co-operation of both Commands will supervise the observance of the cease-fire order.

5. The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favorable to the promotion of further negotiations.



PART II

TRUCE AGREEMENT

Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.



(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.



(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.



2. (1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission



(2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the Commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.



(3) The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within their power to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human and political rights will be guaranteed.



3. (1) Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communiqué containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.




PART III

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.


*The UNCIP unanimously adopted this Resolution on 13-8-1948.

Members of the Commission: Argentina. Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and U.S.A.

Did you even read what I wrote ?

This is the Original Resolution & in the light of the objections raised by Pakistan & the recommendations of the aforementioned Canadian-General, 4 subsequent resolutions were adopted which talked about synchronous (simultaneous) withdrawal & not Pakistan withdrawing first !

Additionally so far 11 different demilitarization mechanisms have been proposed - All accepted by Pakistan, not one by India !

 

[Parul]

Did you even read what I wrote ?

This is the Original Resolution & in the light of the objections raised by Pakistan & the recommendations of the aforementioned Canadian-General, 4 subsequent resolutions were adopted which talked about synchronous (simultaneous) withdrawal & not Pakistan withdrawing first !

Additionally so far 11 different demilitarization mechanisms have been proposed - All accepted by Pakistan, not one by India !

Yes, I read it & have replied too.....

 

[batmannow]

Dude , Indian soldiers get paid to die if necessary. So do all soldiers, even Pakistani soldiers. Coffin manufacturers make money out of all armies even during peacetimes. Soldiers drop dead in their barracks as well and coffins are needed to cremate/bury them. Stop idolizing George Fernandez on the basis that he made money out of selling coffins to the IA. That is kinda childish. As for Kashmir, if I was responsible for making any decision about that place I would have given it to the Eskimos if they asked for it. I'm extremely generous see. Sadly I am not responsible for deciding the future of Kashmir. The Indian government is. Go take your gripe up with them. Need a number to call ? I believe that there are cheap call rates between Thailand and New Delhi

son, dont need to use cash to calll dehli, its all on skype?
till there is no solution to indian voilent occupation of kashmir, things like that bound to happen?
but our militry,s hands are far more clear thn of yours not belive me ask GENRL V K SINGH plz?
sure you are not the dam decesion maker of anything, but still you can act against voilent activities of your govt troops, by a peacefull protest as good indian peace loving citizen?
even in africa indian embsy is just right there, find a pice of paper barow a pen from some one, & just write violence against kashmiris by indian govt troops are nt accepted, thn just go infront of your embsy, all that process is just cost freee. isnt it?lol

 

[Armstrong]

Actually UN resolutions are dead for all practical purposes because you never planned to work though UN system in the first place. Did UN resolution call for armed invasion (1947, 1965, Kargil). The purpose of a UN resolution was to solve the issue through the UN (International) system, no two ways about it. The moment you took another route (armed conflict)to solve the issue, I don't see why the other party (India) should respect the other side of the bargain when you want it to. In short Pakistan has used the UN route whenever it was or is comfortable with it, it did not have qualms about abandoning it when it thought it could finish the conflict through armed means. Since Pakistan does not give two hoots about ending the staemate through UN system I don't understand why India should, after all the the international community seems to ignore the issue completely, even Pakistani government thinks it is not a viable solution, otherwise you would not be seeing your leaders talk about "Out of the box solution" etc. To sum it up UN resolutions are a piece of paper which Pakistan talks about following in sudden bursts whenever it does not have any other means, thus India need not adhere to UN resolution . So for Practical purpose UN resolutions are practically dead.

Is that why of the 11 different demilitarization plans recommended by the UN all were accepted by Pakistan & none by India ?

Apparently Pakistan's initial misgivings about India being sincere about resolving the Kashmir Issue proved right when Pakistan's concerns were even noted by the UN & that coupled with the UN's own appointed man's recommendations resulted in 4 subsequent resolutions asking for 'synchronous' troop withdrawal were ignored by India !

India had not committed to any specific troop levels in the agreement - however, Pakistan was committed to withdrawing ALL its troops.

Even the original agreement talks about India withdrawing all her troops barring the minimum required for the maintenance of law & order - So yes there was talk of specific troop levels !

However this was revised in the subsequent 4 Resolutions whereby both India & Pakistan was supposed to withdraw simultaneously !

And that was further revised in the subsequent Resolutions that proposed different demilitarization mechanisms !

None of them have been accepted by India whilst all have been accepted by Pakistan; if it were one or two one might give India the benefit of the doubt but 11 is enough to establish who was acting in 'good faith' & who wasn't !

Plebiscite cannot happen anymore, if Punjab and Bengal were divided and we are OK with it, lets just declare the LOC as border and call it quits, Militarily Pakistan wont get an Inch from India and diplomatically India wont give an inch of land. India doesn't have the will or the interest to invade Pakistan for Kashmir. Hence, call the LOC as International Border and end the Blood Shell

Its not a question of 'land' ! Pakistan has always maintained let the people decide & if they decide India or Pakistan or Independence (now) - We're alright with it !

 

[Argus Panoptes]

To pakistan ko taraqqi karna hai to kashmir ko bhool jaye. Yeh kahan ki logic hai hazrat?

That is NOT what I said Sir.

I am saying that trying to regain Kashmir while the rest of Pakistan is falling apart is going to be unsuccessful. We need to build Pakistan first before we have any hope of regaining Kashmir. Nowhere do I suggest forgetting about ti.

 

[Armstrong]

Yes, I read it & have replied too.....

Your reply doesn't make any sense - You're quoting the Original Agreement despite it being superseded by numerous subsequent agreements !

That is NOT what I said Sir.

I am saying that trying to regain Kashmir while the rest of Pakistan is falling apart is going to be unsuccessful. We need to build Pakistan first before we have any hope of regaining Kashmir. Nowhere do I suggest forgetting about ti.

Imran's condemnation doesn't equal a call for Jihad on Kashmir - I do think you're blowing this vastly out of proportion !

Its never a zero-sum game, if country's the world over were to react to everything contingent on whether their domestic conditions were A-Okay....we'd never have a peep out of the Foreign Ministries or Influential Leaders of that said country !

You solve the mess at home & voice your opinion at the same time - There is no trade-off there !

 

[Argus Panoptes]

.........


Imran's condemnation doesn't equal a call for Jihad on Kashmir - I do think you're blowing this vastly out of proportion !

Its never a zero-sum game, if country's the world over were to react to everything contingent on whether their domestic conditions were A-Okay....we'd never have a peep out of the Foreign Ministries or Influential Leaders of that said country !

You solve the mess at home & voice your opinion at the same time - There is no trade-off there !

But please note that with the mess we have at home, voicing our opinion simply has no credibility. No one is listening to us Sir.

 

[karan.1970]

Now, why do I find that hard to believe?

No Idea mate.. I am responsible for the Srinagar branch of my employer and have an ancestral property that does a pretty decent business in tourist season. So have to visit it fairly frequently. And if you are so hell bent on denying me once a month, then ok.. may be 9-10 times a year

 

[Armstrong]

But please note that with the mess we have at home, voicing our opinion simply has no credibility. No one is listening to us Sir.

How is the mess at home related to the Kashmir Issue ? Fighting against the Taliban, a nosediving economy & rampant mis-governance does indeed effect Pakistan negatively but how does that prevent us from calling a spade a spade ?

You're right no one is listening to us right now but if our stance is a principled stance than so what ? Or are you suggesting that outrage should only be expressed when one has an audience sitting in front of them with rapt attention ?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

How is the mess at home related to the Kashmir Issue ? Fighting against the Taliban, a nosediving economy & rampant mis-governance does indeed effect Pakistan negatively but how does that prevent us from calling a spade a spade ?

You're right no one is listening to us right now but if our stance is a principled stance than so what ? Or are you suggesting that outrage should only be expressed when one has an audience sitting in front of them with rapt attention ?

Sirjee, please read my initial posts again. IF we are calling a spade a spade, and IF our stance is principled, then why are we not condemning the same atrocities by our own forces in our own lands? We cannot be selective in which spades to call spades, and pretend the ones in our own hands are not. That is why our stance on Kashmir has no legs to stand on.

 

[Armstrong]

Sirjee, please read my initial posts again. IF we are calling a spade a spade, and IF our stance is principled, then why are we not condemning the same atrocities by our own forces in our own lands? We cannot be selective in which spades to call spades, and pretend the ones in our own hands are not. That is why our stance on Kashmir has no legs to stand on.

Who isn't calling out the atrocities by our Armed Forces ? Why do you think both PML N & PTI have called for a stop to the dumped bodies & the Agencies to be subservient to the Civil Apparatus ?

At any rate how does killing terrorists equate with killing unarmed protestors ?

Besides tell me of a single country that doesn't adopt such an approach whereby it covers up her own failings & condemns another ? India does that...so does Israel & the State - Every one does that !

 

[Amolthebest]

Has Imran apologized BD for slaughter in 1971 yet? There is already race begun to apologized BD. I just dont understand, its Pakistan who lost the war , its them who surrendered unconditionally and still its them who still asking apologizing

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Who isn't calling out the atrocities by our Armed Forces ? Why do you think both PML N & PTI have called for a stop to the dumped bodies & the Agencies to be subservient to the Civil Apparatus ?

At any rate how does killing terrorists equate with killing unarmed protestors ?

Besides tell me of a single country that doesn't adopt such an approach whereby it covers up her own failings & condemns another ? India does that...so does Israel & the State - Every one does that !

Sirjee, meri posts dobaara parh tey lau. I have said the Imran Khan has never condemned the atrocities being carried out by our own armed forces therefore his condemnation of events in Kashmir is meaningless.

And please don't forget that Israel and India back up their stances with military might, economic strength and political savvy. Only then they say what they say. We have no military might, no economic strength and no political savvy. Now when we talk no one listens. When they talk, people listen.

Bas yehi faraq hey.

 

[Armstrong]

Sirjee, meri posts dobaara parh tey lau. I have said the Imran Khan has never condemned the atrocities being carried out by our own armed forces therefore his condemnation of events in Kashmir is meaningless.

What atrocities do you want him to condemn ? Hes condemned the FATA Operation, hes condemned the Baluchistan Operation, hes condemned the Bulled Riddled Bodies, hes condemned the Army's decision of joining the war, hes condemned the forced disappearances - What more do you want him to do ?

Or do you think hes asking Shareef & Kiyani to meet up with him before the APC because he wants to eat bagels with a cup of coffee in GHQ or the Presidential Suite ?

And please don't forget that Israel and India back up their stances with military might, economic strength and political savvy. Only then they say what they say. We have no military might, no economic strength and no political savvy. Now when we talk no one listens. When they talk, people listen.

Bas yehi faraq hey.

Indeed ! So what do you do - Remain Silent & tell to the Kashmiris yaaar let us build up our economic strength, our military might & our political acumen & then when we've done all of that we'd speak out against anything that is done to you....in the meantime get raped, shot at, let them fill those mass-graves with your sons & your daughters - I'm not sure if I'm ready to say anything right now....you see the bank balance doesn't allow it & yes my WW2 era Lee Enfiled only has one bullet in its magazine...till then Bhugtuuu....Sanuuu kii !

There is a rationale behind building yourself up but then there is a rationale on speaking out against atrocities committed by India in a land we consider our own & a people we consider our own - They are listening !

You may not have interacted with many Kashmiris but I being one have ! I've interacted with more Kashmiris from Occupied Kashmir (some from the family...others from amongst friends & family friends) to know that 'they' are listening but if you'd rather send a message of 'mute silence' to them till the GDP has grown by such & such a factor - Be my guest ! Till that time I'd think the rest of us would act in difference.