If Pakistan Goes To War?.

[Contrarian]

There's not going to be a nuclear war, both countries have developed extensive second strike capabilities and realize that if anything resembling a nuke if launched, there will be 5 more in the air before the first even lands on target.

This is about Pakistan terrorizing the world with nuclear weapons if anyone - including US - attacks India. It will not work despite sounding so.

Same old rhetoric, still no proof. Didn't even bother to read the rest of your post after this. Sure, we have supported proxies in the past, but then again, who hasn't?

India-Mukti Bahani, LTTE, Northern Alliance.
US-Cuban Rebels, SVA, Mujahideen.

Ofcourse every nation has sponsored proxies. The problem with Pakistan is that it did so long after this methods expiry date passed. Thus there is no support or sympathy for Pakistan.

Secondly Pakistan cannot control these proxies. Who is to say another 'rogue' ISI operative starts or just supports another operation 'on his own'. Do you know that this has happened?
Many in ISI are very sympathetic to the militants and have long been aligned to them?

Lets take another case, even if lets assume that ISI stops any and all kind of support to these networks - which it hasnt - they are still incapable stopping the terrorists from using their soil as ground base for terrorism in neighbouring countries.

Pakistan as a nation cannot even willingly stop militants fighting the State of Pakistan, let alone stopping those who are targeting neighbours.

 

[acid rain]

The OP is right in his use of words here,

IF PAKISTAN GOES TO WAR...remains to be seen with whom, with India most probably because Pakistan has gone to war with India numerous times, Pakistan has initiated wars 48, 65, 71 or have done events which have escalated or dangerously brought war clouds closer like 99 Musharrafs kargil misadventure, 2002 Indian parliament attack by Pakistan sponsored terrorists, or in 2008 by Pakistani terrorists.

Pakistan has been the initiator for war, and will be in the future too, so remains to be seen who of Pakistans friends list still see justifications in it going to war with India again.
Past helpers have been Afghan Mujahadeen and the Taliban, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, The US and UK..
How many from among them will come to Pakistan's aid if its a war with India?

The Taliban and Mujahadeen are a certainty and will be out in full force defending Muslim brothers, they might attack Indian interests in Afg too.

China didn't in 99 though there were multiple pleas to them from PA.. in contrast they came to their aid in 71, I think their aid will depend on Pakistan's reason for war.

Iran...not sure what are the internal dynamics, but Irans premier has promised help to Pakistan during any future war..but that was if its the US or NATO wonder what if Pakistan goes to war with India? might be some covert help.

Saudi Arabia, helped always but thhat was when Pakistan was quite compliant with them, they might help out materialistically if war is with India.

Help from other Muslim nations like Turkey, Arab, African might come for Pakistan but again will depend on which side the US is tilted towards if the US supports Pakistan then we can expect lots of help and if its towards India then they will help covertly.

 

[Icarus]

No country is coming to give physical support except nuclear cover like given by China during Kargil. And they wont do anything today even if India is the one threatening. For their calculations vis-a-vis India are changing rapidly - our military is gearing up to be able to hit even North China. They also realize this.

1) I don't expect physical support from any country under any circumstances.
2) In a war, diplomatic support is what makes all the difference, case in point USA on Kargil.
3) I agree that that too will be hard to come by, seeing India has become increasingly relevant on the global landscape.
4) I believe your "Hitting China" idea is a bit over bloated, India is still in no position to "Hit China" from a safe position, yes, you can bully Bangladesh and try to intimidate Pakistan but the Chinese Military still boasts superiority in Technology, Number and Defence Production.

 

[Icarus]

Ofcourse every nation has sponsored proxies. The problem with Pakistan is that it did so long after this methods expiry date passed. Thus there is no support or sympathy for Pakistan.

My friend, you cannot force this down my throat, every nation has their hands dirty in Afghanistan, almost every nation in interests in the region has their own favourite band of bearded mullahs with drugs and guns that they are helping.

Secondly Pakistan cannot control these proxies. Who is to say another 'rogue' ISI operative starts or just supports another operation 'on his own'. Do you know that this has happened?

Cite example.....It's very difficult for one man to set up an independent extra-national terrorist operation without any resources.

Many in ISI are very sympathetic to the militants and have long been aligned to them?

Long? The entire composition of the ISI changes every 3 years, define long?

Lets take another case, even if lets assume that ISI stops any and all kind of support to these networks - which it hasnt - they are still incapable stopping the terrorists from using their soil as ground base for terrorism in neighbouring countries.

I doubt if we were still supporting these proxies, we would be the ones taking most damage from them.

Pakistan as a nation cannot even willingly stop militants fighting the State of Pakistan, let alone stopping those who are targeting neighbours.

Swat and FATA Ops sure seemed to dent their operational effectiveness, from one major terrorist incident, we are down to one per 4 months. With regular multiple suicide attacks, they are down to using planted low intensity devices that are much less effective.

 

[Contrarian]

The entire post is preposterous, Pakistan has never been a successful country, wrong. Until 2007 Pakistan was the 2nd fastest growing economy and the hottest place to invest, come better days, we'll get back on track. Don't you worry.

A rising tide lifts all boats as they say. I doubt you are getting back to 'better days' anytime before 2020.

Secondly, why would only a Pakistani divulge details about national assets? Your post makes vague assumptions and then pulls the nuke out of the hat and expects me to clap in awe? Here's a quiz for you? How many Pakistani defectors has India secured (leaving Bengalis in 71)? Ho many Jawans have turned for India? I can post at least 5 examples right now of Indian Army ORs working for ISI, I think you should worry about your own asset's integrity. Ours are in the safest hands, our guys (me included) will gladly watch every single member of our family die before us but never divulge the location of this nation's assets. We have some sense of honour, but I don't expect you to understand.

Ofcourse an Indian cannot understand honour right?
Yet Indians were successful in getting assets by the thousands in Bengalis? You think Balochis would be harder?
Or are you trying to say that the US is unable to get assets within the Pakistani Army? Since they already have every politician in Pakistan.

Spare us the bull$hit called honour. Numerous Pakistani's have been bought/lured by US - from every section of Pakistani society.

 

[Contrarian]

1) I don't expect physical support from any country under any circumstances.
2) In a war, diplomatic support is what makes all the difference, case in point USA on Kargil.
3) I agree that that too will be hard to come by, seeing India has become increasingly relevant on the global landscape.
4) I believe your "Hitting China" idea is a bit over bloated, India is still in no position to "Hit China" from a safe position, yes, you can bully Bangladesh and try to intimidate Pakistan but the Chinese Military still boasts superiority in Technology, Number and Defence Production.

Not safely at all. Not safely by any stretch of imagination for India. Yet in '99, India was a non entity for the globe and completely incapable of hitting China anywhere beyond Tibet easily, bar the limited missile capability of greater range.

So basically back then, China was absolutely immune from India except in the border areas - and not where it hurts most - their political and economic hub - North East China.

Today and within 10 years, we have developed the technology to be able to hit North China. Within 10 years, this technology will be operationalized in mass numbers. Our global influence has increased exponentially from '99.
That is why i said, military capability and diplomatic heft of India has increased exponentially since 1999 and this is why most countries - and China prominent among them - are reevaluating their chips vis-a-vis India.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

47,65 & 99 was won by Pakistan...keep living in denial. Even the highest point liberated in 99 is still in Pakistan's control.

pt 5353 is the only point in pakistan's control...what about the others that pakistan took before the war and was compelled to leave during it??? and how on earth pakistan won in 65 & 47??? do you have any pictures of pak army unfurling the green flag at the red fort in delhi

 

[Icarus]

A rising tide lifts all boats as they say. I doubt you are getting back to 'better days' anytime before 2020.

Well, the stock market is showing improvement, exports showed slight improvement this year, as long as we're on the right track, I can wait for better days knowing that they're ahead.

Ofcourse an Indian cannot understand honour right?

You are loading things, I could infer the same from your post.

Yet Indians were successful in getting assets by the thousands in Bengalis? You think Balochis would be harder?

A Baloch Officer, yes much harder. India does not have the same type of leverage as they did in Bengal. To quote Sam Bahadur Makenshaw: "The Pakistanis fought valiantly but they were a thousand miles from their base of operations and outnumbered 50 to 1, they never had a chance". India no longer has that advantage.

Or are you trying to say that the US is unable to get assets within the Pakistani Army? Since they already have every politician in Pakistan.

By assets I mean strategic assets, what you are referring to is a Mole. Someone who will divulge details of assets to a third party and no, I don't think the US can secure a Mole in the Pakistan Army.

Spare us the bull$hit called honour. Numerous Pakistani's have been bought/lured by US - from every section of Pakistani society.

They were not Officers of the Military or Intelligence Agencies of Pakistan. Incorruptible, trained to resist both torture and temptation.

 

[Contrarian]

My friend, you cannot force this down my throat, every nation has their hands dirty in Afghanistan, almost every nation in interests in the region has their own favourite band of bearded mullahs with drugs and guns that they are helping.

True. Yet Afghanistan is different from India is it not? The life of an Afghan for the international community is worth less than the life of an Indian which is less than the life of a Westerner.
That is how things always work. Having terrorists from Pakistan target India leads to a completely different set of threats and response from the world than one in Afghanistan.

Cite example.....It's very difficult for one man to set up an independent extra-national terrorist operation without any resources.

Yet it is very easy for one/few men to aid a terrorist outfit which already has extensive funding and establishment for over a decade to conduct one more operation - the likes of which the ISI supported less than 1 decade back.

Long? The entire composition of the ISI changes every 3 years, define long?

Decades.

I doubt if we were still supporting these proxies, we would be the ones taking most damage from them.

Today there is militancy in Pakistan precisely because you have in the past supported these proxies extensively.

Swat and FATA Ops sure seemed to dent their operational effectiveness, from one major terrorist incident, we are down to one per 4 months. With regular multiple suicide attacks, they are down to using planted low intensity devices that are much less effective.

True. Yet the current dithering of Pakistan in launching more operations is giving a good space for the terrorists to get respite and regroup.

 

[Icarus]

pt 5353 is the only point in pakistan's control...what about the others that pakistan took before the war and was compelled to leave during it??? and how on earth pakistan won in 65 & 47??? do you have any pictures of pak army unfurling the green flag at the red fort in delhi

By that logic, do you have any pictures of Indian soldiers unfurling the Tri-Colour in Islamabad or Karachi? That means that maybe some third party won the war, maybe the Tuna Fish?

Not safely at all. Not safely by any stretch of imagination for India. Yet in '99, India was a non entity for the globe and completely incapable of hitting China anywhere beyond Tibet easily, bar the limited missile capability of greater range.

So basically back then, China was absolutely immune from India except in the border areas - and not where it hurts most - their political and economic hub - North East China.

Today and within 10 years, we have developed the technology to be able to hit North China. Within 10 years, this technology will be operationalized in mass numbers. Our global influence has increased exponentially from '99.
That is why i said, military capability and diplomatic heft of India has increased exponentially since 1999 and this is why most countries - and China prominent among them - are reevaluating their chips vis-a-vis India.

Thank you for clarifying, that makes sense.

 

[Icarus]

True. Yet Afghanistan is different from India is it not? The life of an Afghan for the international community is worth less than the life of an Indian which is less than the life of a Westerner.
That is how things always work. Having terrorists from Pakistan target India leads to a completely different set of threats and response from the world than one in Afghanistan.

So you understand that it's a an affair that requires significant investment. Something that Pakistan at the moment, simply cannot spare.

Yet it is very easy for one/few men to aid a terrorist outfit which already has extensive funding and establishment for over a decade to conduct one more operation - the likes of which the ISI supported less than 1 decade back.

An example would be great because no one in the ISI knows more than they need to and those who know are kept under scrutiny long after the termination of their employment with the Intelligence Agencies.

Decades.

Explain then how elements within the ISI will continue to support the terrorist elements when the entire composition of the agency changes about thrice each decade and sustaining proxies has for long been expelled from national policy.

Today there is militancy in Pakistan precisely because you have in the past supported these proxies extensively.

I beg to differ, this militancy that we are facing today is a spillover from the Afghan Conflict but I agree that it reached it's climax because we failed to address the issue earlier on.

True. Yet the current dithering of Pakistan in launching more operations is giving a good space for the terrorists to get respite and regroup.

I will agree with you here, I too have long been campaigning for an Op in NWA but the fact of the matter remains that we cannot launch an additional Op without the requisite funds another important consideration is the troops that we will need to pull to add to the strength in NWA which will either compromise our Ops and security in other Hot Zones, Domestic Security in Cities and sensitive installations or our security on the eastern border. Each in their own right, is vital to national security, which is why at the moment, the NWA Op is on hold. Another reason for the reluctance in the launch of NWA Op is that the US and Afghans are engaging the Afghan Taliban for talks, if we attack one of their important bases now, it will upset the peace process and win us further condemnation.

 

[Slav Defence]

We should establish an Islamic Union.We will cause peace and beauty to reign all over the world. There will be complete peace and security, insha’Allah. Islam will rule the world in all its glory. There will be no more bigotry, extremism or violence. Everyone will have freedom of ideas and belief.

But what we need for this???curruption free environment,piousness like our great ancestors eg:Saladin,we need SCIENTIST,DEFENSE ANALYSTS,STRONG POLICY MAKERS,MOMINS, WE NEED CLASS APART MUSLIMS! AND FOR THIS WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE PATHWAY OF ALLAH JAL E JALAHOO,WE HAVE TO RESISTS OUR INNER FALSE DESIRE AND MOST PROMINENTLY WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT:OUR GOLDERN ERA IS PASSED!

IF WE WANT TO BE A PART OF GOD'S ADMIN THEN FIRST WE SHOULD ACT LIKE MOMIN
AND THE SIGN OF MOMIN IS THAT HIS WORSE OPPONENTS RESPECT AND LOVE HIM AND MOMINS DOESN'T TALK!THEY ACT FIRST AND THEN TALK!

 

[Hyperion]

Its funny because its not achievable. Someone down Pakistan's chain of command will want a better future for their kids. They will not want them slaughtered on Pakistani soil.

After all it is almost sure that any war on Pakistan will be waged by any power due to Pakistan's continued support for terrorism or one kind or another against other nations.

So someone important - will not want to lose their family - even if he has sent his kids to US/EU - they might be threatened.

He along with many others will give up the details of your weapons.

Maybe even the public of Pakistan is goaded to fight against their military to prevent usage of weapons. There are a hundred options available for the world to exercise.

Pakistan is till date - not a successful country - it is not a responsible nation the likes of Turkey, India or even Iran are. And the world is increasingly getting little on patience with Pakistan.

Mate, get rid of your hangover first (superiority complex one).

"War on Pakistan" aka "War on Terror"
"Responsible nation"
"Not a successful country" aka "Failed state"
"India is......." "India this" "India that"
"Little on patience" "On thin ice" "Patience is failing"

Happy using the standard keywords? Go eat some "Indian" lentils, fart and contaminate your surroundings like a nice "responsible" person, as we are running "thin on patience" with your rhetoric.


@RazPaK ko unban karo. Log haath say nikaltay jaa rahai hain. Restore the balance. We want Razi Back.

 

[Bratva]

The entire post is preposterous, Pakistan has never been a successful country, wrong. Until 2007 Pakistan was the 2nd fastest growing economy and the hottest place to invest, come better days, we'll get back on track. Don't you worry.
Secondly, why would only a Pakistani divulge details about national assets? Your post makes vague assumptions and then pulls the nuke out of the hat and expects me to clap in awe? Here's a quiz for you? How many Pakistani defectors has India secured (leaving Bengalis in 71)? Ho many Jawans have turned for India? I can post at least 5 examples right now of Indian Army ORs working for ISI, I think you should worry about your own asset's integrity. Ours are in the safest hands, our guys (me included) will gladly watch every single member of our family die before us but never divulge the location of this nation's assets. We have some sense of honour, but I don't expect you to understand.

Oppa Intel Officer Style

 

[arp2041]

@RazPaK ko unban karo. Log haath say nikaltay jaa rahai hain. Restore the balance. We want Razi Back.

Don't worry, @RazPaK has been replaced by @ajtr, it's like replacing first generation Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star with that of fifth generation F-22