IAF strike into Pakistan - A simulation of sorts

[SQ8]

@Oscar Well I can assure you that I am not a keyboard warrior as windjammer above is assuming. While I avoid getting into these things as for me this forum is all about learning from tonnes of experiences of veterans from all over, yet you have to grant me that much, I ask you, that in any war or in any battle plan, there never is and never was the correct method or one simple solution.

Only in the training institutes is one taught not to 'fight the whites' when the DS gives an exercise solution and you simply shut up and sit or pay with your course gradings.

Having said that, there are few points you may want to consider that the soldier is simple and does not think at a strategic level.

What is the rate of retaliatory strikes by India in response to spectacular terror attacks attributed directly to Pak based groups? Nil till date.

What is the reaction of a simple soldier who is put on alert every time terror strike takes place in the neighbouring country who calls for strikes on your own and you waste time again and again doing nothing while on alert and knowing that the neighbouring country has never ever retaliated and will not as you have first strike nuclear options? He will be disinterested and his reactions and actions will be sub-optimal and he will confirm in his mind that his officer cadre are all cunts!!! So any 'high alert' for him will be just the every other time usual run of the mill drill

Now, you have assumed you will be getting fairly advanced warning of an Indian strike en-route ...... while that itself is flawed.

I concede that your HUMINT capability by penetrating the armed forces of India to a degree of flag officers is commendable and leaves a lot of loop holes in any strike being formulated, but you forget that the targets for any strike are already pre-designated.

Only an authorisation of a strike is required for the strike to complete within an hour of order. There is no requirement of targets, nor of any resources marshalling. Your first and foremost warning will come just before or as soon as the strike mission is aloft .... and all the likely targets are 8 -10 mins flying time for IAF.

The Indian decision making right now is highly PM centric, and you can expect an unilateral decision even without the RM being in the loop and the strikes being carried out without putting the forces also on alert.


That is my only contention

Your entire premise of NOT having alert is made redundant that in case of ANY such terror incident in India, the PAF goes on immediate alert.

 

[Shariq786]

That even at a disadvantage and not with real life tactics; the equipment that the PAF has still gives a good account of itself.

Name of the simulator please

 

[Dr Gupta]

What happened to the game? where we at folks?

Your entire premise of NOT having alert is made redundant that in case of ANY such terror incident in India, the PAF goes on immediate alert.

True it went on full alert straight after 26/11 but remember also thing, now we won't strike at the time that people think but of our choosing why give people a chance to be prepared?

 

[SQ8]

What happened to the game? where we at folks?



True it went on full alert straight after 26/11 but remember also thing, now we won't strike at the time that people think but of our choosing why give people a chance to be prepared?

Again, you misunderstand the point.

Alert means alert.

All sectors, all surveillance. The minute a bomb goes off, the alert procedures tick off.
Unless you are implying that India will have a strike group alert at the airfields before a bomb goes off,
so either its letting it happen or its a false flag

 

[Dr Gupta]

Again, you misunderstand the point.

Alert means alert.

All sectors, all surveillance. The minute a bomb goes off, the alert procedures tick off.
Unless you are implying that India will have a strike group alert at the airfields before a bomb goes off,
so either its letting it happen or its a false flag

Sir I am aware of it and yes it will be instant within minutes but we changed our military doctrine which has contantly been evolving since Kargil, parliament attack (our pointless waste of money in the fulll mobilisation) and 26/11.

Now this scenario is that we hit back straight after a terror attack on Indian soil, which will give you the upper hand as you will be expecting a reaction and be well prepared but say hypothetical speaking we do nothing?

Months go by still nothing things return to normal and one night boom out of no where it starts... now that is a entirety different scenorio

 

[SQ8]

Sir I am aware of it and yes it will be instant within minutes but we changed our military doctrine which has contantly been evolving since Kargil, parliament attack (our pointless waste of money in the fulll mobilisation) and 26/11.

Now this scenario is that we hit back straight after a terror attack on Indian soil, which will give you the upper hand as you will be expecting a reaction and be well prepared but say hypothetical speaking we do nothing?

Months go by still nothing things return to normal and one night boom out of no where it starts... now that is a entirety different scenorio

Still wont make a difference. Both sides have massive HUMINT on each other. Not just within the forces, but on the ground; your casual farmer passing by, the air marshal's son texting his girl( I shit you not, this is from a horse's mouth on an event happening in the PAF which your side picked up).. so what you are stating is impossible.

There is NO scenario in ANY foreseeable future other than Pakistan totally collapsing internally that India has any semblance of surprise on a conventional front. And as stubborn as it may sound, there is NOTHING you can say or add to convince me otherwise.
I have no wish to convince you since FYI and no offense, I really dont weigh much in on anyone's opinion here(besides 10 maybe) nor do I have any wish to impose mine other than calculated troll baits which I lay to ban certain idiots.

 

[Dr Gupta]

Still wont make a difference. Both sides have massive HUMINT on each other. Not just within the forces, but on the ground; your casual farmer passing by, the air marshal's son texting his girl( I shit you not, this is from a horse's mouth on an event happening in the PAF which your side picked up).. so what you are stating is impossible.

There is NO scenario in ANY foreseeable future other than Pakistan totally collapsing internally that India has any semblance of surprise on a conventional front. And as stubborn as it may sound, there is NOTHING you can say or add to convince me otherwise.
I have no wish to convince you since FYI and no offense, I really dont weigh much in on anyone's opinion here(besides 10 maybe) nor do I have any wish to impose mine other than calculated troll baits which I lay to ban certain idiots.

With the amount you guys been through, partition, Bangladesh war, Kashmir earthquake, Biblical type floods and the war on terror I think Pakistan is a brave country and believe me I wish no ill on Pakistanis as I think if there is upheaval there it will have regional consequences.

As for a surprise attack, I am not sure as you guys have been caught off guard numerous times not talking about the Bin Laden episode but the attack on various military installations but that is no different to India we also have had such attacks the one in January being the latest.

Troop movements are monitored by both our sides as is war games and changes to military doctrines. Intelligence is key not only on the ground but up in the sky with spy satellites, I think the Chinese would grant you much intel there using their systems but I was talking to one Israeli guy I know and he said they have probably the best resolution in the world I think they are one step ahead in this type of technology.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-targets-Iran-with-new-spy-satellite.html

 

[SQ8]

With the amount you guys been through, partition, Bangladesh war, Kashmir earthquake, Biblical type floods and the war on terror I think Pakistan is a brave country and believe me I wish no ill on Pakistanis as I think if there is upheaval there it will have regional consequences.

As for a surprise attack, I am not sure as you guys have been caught off guard numerous times not talking about the Bin Laden episode but the attack on various military installations but that is no different to India we also have had such attacks the one in January being the latest.

Troop movements are monitored by both our sides as is war games and changes to military doctrines. Intelligence is key not only on the ground but up in the sky with spy satellites, I think the Chinese would grant you much intel there using their systems but I was talking to one Israeli guy I know and he said they have probably the best resolution in the world I think they are one step ahead in this type of technology.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-targets-Iran-with-new-spy-satellite.html

a terror attack has a very different warning "anatomy" as compared to conventional air/ground and even naval movements.

I sometimes laugh when western nations complain of having no warning or bad intel. In their cases, terrorists are from or part of an already smaller percentage of their population. A population that stands out anyway in the crowd and is MUCH easier to profile.

Try telling a Punjabi guy with terrorist ideals apart in Haryana or Lahore.

 

[saiyan0321]

Gotta hand it to @Oscar to run this simulation... Amazing work. Come on people this isnt real life. Its a simulation. Let's enjoy it.

Can't wait for the China vs america or Russia vs america simulation..

May wanna do a america vs Pakistan one as well for those that believe we van take on america. :p :p :p

 

[randomradio]

ARe you daft? Or are you suggesting that having the MKI, UPG, M2K is inferior?
EACH of these jets has BETTER equipment simulated. The MKI has TWICE the radar power and range simulated as compared to the F-16.
F-16:
[DetectSystem]
RadarName=AN/APG-68(V)9
RadarFamilyName=F-16
RadarType=AIR_INTERCEPT
RangeUnit=NM
RadarAzimuthLimit=60
RadarElevationLimit=60
RadarSearchTime=1.0
RadarSearchRange=112
RadarSearchStrength=110
RadarTrackTime=2.0
RadarTrackRange=89
RadarTrackStrength=110
RadarSearchFreq=9.8
RadarTrackFreq=9.8
RadarMissileGuidanceFreq=6.0
RadarSearchCW=FALSE
RadarTrackCW=FALSE
RadarMissileGuidanceCW=TRUE
DopplerLookdown=TRUE
VisualBlindArc=
VisualRestrictedArc=6
MaxVisibleDistance=6600.0
HasRWR=TRUE
RWRMinFreq=0.5
RWRMaxFreq=20.0
RWRCanDetectCW=TRUE
DataLink=TRUE
NetworkType=LINK17

MKI:
[DetectSystem]
RadarName=Pero N011-1-01M
RadarFamilyName=Bars
RadarType=AIR_INTERCEPT
RangeUnit=KM
RadarAzimuthLimit=70
RadarElevationLimit=60
RadarSearchTime=1.0
RadarSearchRange=210
RadarSearchStrength=180
RadarTrackTime=2.0
RadarTrackRange=165
RadarTrackStrength=180
RadarSearchFreq=10.5
RadarTrackFreq=10.5
RadarMissileGuidanceFreq=10.5
RadarSearchCW=FALSE
RadarTrackCW=FALSE
RadarMissileGuidanceCW=TRUE
DopplerLookdown=TRUE
VisualBlindArc=5,6,7
VisualRestrictedArc=4L,8L
MaxVisibleDistance=9600.0
RCSModifier=0.6
HasRWR=TRUE
RWRMinFreq=0.5
RWRMaxFreq=20.0
RWRCanDetectCW=TRUE
DataLink=TRUE
NetworkType=AFNET


Please stop being the whiny internet Indian for once in your life; its difficult and in genetics.. but spare us from commenting if you cannot.

You've used old numbers for MKI, so yes, you've underestimated IAF equipment. You've used numbers from the 1995-2000 period which were relevant up to 2012 or even 2013. 2014 onwards, the numbers are different. Dozens of new upgrades have been initiated and that includes a major radar upgrade.

So-
RadarAzimuthLimit=70 = wrong
RadarElevationLimit=60 = wrong
RadarSearchRange=210 = wrong
RadarSearchStrength=180 = wrong

You will have to consider the newly upgraded N-011M, not the old N-011M.

Why don't you check up on the news for the Russian Su-30SM? What they really say about the Bars.

https://defencerussia.wordpress.com...t-to-upgrade-radar-control-system-of-su-30sm/

“The “Bars-R” radar control system of the Su-30SM aircraft is a further development of the “Bars” RCS of the Su-30MKI aircraft developed on the order of the Indian Air Forces. In accordance with the military technical requirement, issued by the Russian Air Forces, the system has been upgraded to get improved performance. The RCS modernization potential is not limited to that, in the near future we are waiting for the new military technical requirement from the Russian Air Forces concerning further development”, – said Beliy.

He noted that negotiations on modernization of the RCS “Bars” with India had been conducted for a long time.

Right now, with the first phase complete, NIIP is discussing with the IAF and obviously with the RuAF to take Bars up to the Irbis-E level.

So your radar search range and search angles figures are completely obsolete.

 

[OrionHunter]

Also IAF was given an unfair advantage as we never deployed our pigeons,

And I thought this was a serious discussion?

 

[OrionHunter]

and btw.. I DEMAND ANSWERS ON WHAT PROGRAM YOU USED ...

The videos below were used to create 'Strike', a simulation shown in the OP by a user called 'Strike Sim' which is based on a simulated air battle between NATO and Russia:

https://www.youtube.com/attribution?v=tymO-D2Fdeo

 

[Sergi]

@Oscar :
I am no warfare expert but want to know if the below scenario can be simulated

10 MKIs intruding Pak air space just before the dawn and after Pak responce all Mig-29K from wiki making a sweep into Pak and try to complete the bombing objective and head to Land based and Viki returning back with carrier group.

Two fronts on two side attack will have element of surprise
Can this sim be run ???

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I believe this type of attack will take place in AJK on camps or Lahore (LET headquarters) most preferably in AJK..does Pakistan have that Much assets in AJk???

we'd love for you to come try and then you find out - till then keep speculating

All good work sir however my two cents....unless one side can completely overwhelm the other as was the case in Gulf wars, in an India / Pakistan scenario, it's a well established fact that the attacking force will always suffer more. Some US think tanks also concluded, that provided there's a threat perception, any IAF aircraft entering Pakistan at low level to avoid detection will first have to compromise with soldiers patrolling border areas armed with the likes of Anza and other MANPADS.

the RBS-70 MANPADS has good accuracy, would be a good test for the Spada-2000 systems as well (not MANPADS)

as a defending force PAF would uphold its tradition of being the largest distributor of IAF spare parts, as your sig proclaims

 

[notorious_eagle]

As for a surprise attack, I am not sure as you guys have been caught off guard numerous times not talking about the Bin Laden episode but the attack on various military installations but that is no different to India we also have had such attacks the one in January being the latest.

Is India going to be attacking from Pakistan's Western Borders? Does India posse the stealthy MH-60?

The bulk of Pakistan's Surveillance Equipment is pointed towards India, and there are multiple layers of radar coverage to combat Low and High Flying Indian Fast Movers. The chances of India carrying out a surprise attack against Pakistan are almost zero to none. The IAF will have to fight its way through every inch, and i am not even taking PA's HUMAINT into account.