IAF Plans For 125 AMCAs

[MirageBlue]

There is a very good reason why I'm saying this. The tejas was originally supposed to be a 200 to 300 initial order, but after 40 years even India's air force doesn't want it, and is being forced to buy roughly over 100. Not to mention its still not fully developed.

The AMCA is still just a concept on paper, and India is already announcing plans to buy a large amount of a plane that no one even knows when an actual prototype will actually fly.

No one is forcing the IAF.

What has changed is the political dispensation's attitude towards indigenous programs. Self-reliance is the new mantra and there is heavy emphasis on it since the NDA govt came to power. And the IAF brass simply have realised that there is no alternative, affordable option and the Govt. is not going to spend $10-12 billion on a foreign import for a MiG-21 Bison replacement, when they can't even get the MRCA to be contracted.

As it stands, the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A offer the IAF pretty much everything it has asked for from a light fighter and more. In fact, the Mk1A will be the most technologically modern fighter in the IAF inventory after the Rafale, even more so than the Mirage-2000I which still uses a pulse doppler RDY-3 radar.

And with Tejas Mk2 to come after this to replace Mirage-2000, MiG-29s and Jaguars, the Tejas family will more than meet the original goal.

By the way, do you believe that the PAF would have gone in for the JF-17 if a Gripen were available with full ToT and license manufacture in Pakistan? Don't kid yourself for a minute that they would have done so.

Pakistan had enormous budgetary and political embargo related difficulties which meant that whatever was on offer from China was acceptable. They had no other option, so they made the best of it.

 

[War Thunder]

IAF PLANS FOR 125 AMCAS
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 04, 2021 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS

In his pre-Air Force Day Press Conference, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria stated that the Indian Air Force was considering an order for 125 next generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

He said that the first two AMCA squadrons would be powered the current General Electric F.414 engines of 90KN thrust while the follow-on five squadrons were likely to get an indigenous power plant with a higher thrust of 125KN.

Under the current plans, first flight of the AMCA prototype would be in 2027, leading to full production by 2029.

The AMCA project has been blueprinted to fly by 2027, which has been defined as ‘very tight’ by the Indian air force (IAF). Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria has intimated that the first two squadrons of the fighters will be powered by an imported engine while the remaining five are likely to get an indigenous power plant.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly working aggressively in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to develop the indigenous AMCA.

Earlier reports suggested that six squadrons of AMCAs are planned initially. The first flight is expected in 2024-25, followed by trials and tests. It will be in full production by 2029.

AMCA will be a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth all-weather multirole fighter aircraft with an indigenous AESA radar. In 2018, $60 million was allotted for prototype design and R&D.

The 25-ton jet will have all munitions in its belly and will be propelled by two engines capable of super-cruise speeds. AMCA will have complex S-shaped serpentine intakes. These hide the spinning turbine blades in the engine and are a key stealth feature.

IAF Plans For 125 AMCAs

In his pre-Air Force Day Press Conference, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria stated that the Indian Air Force was considering an order for 125...

www.indiandefensenews.in

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Wake me up if it flies by 2050.

 

[The Maverick]

You'll see it for yourself much much before that. Your lack of belief in India's aerospace capabilities doesn't make one whit of a difference in the real world.

Meanwhile, keep showing the world C-130 tail art to prove that the AZM is a real clean sheet design that Pakistan is designing on it's own.

At mirage ......don't believe the jibes.... deep down they completely understand how tejas has mushroomed into a Massive aerospace infrastructure with ddrdo and Hal and huge private companies on board as well. They are not blind they see the helicopters,the trainers,the bvr and strike weapons the satalites and they know India will.use tejas as the kick start base to Amca.

they also know we have the finances,and the partners,willing to assist be it French Israel or usa,if needed .

we tick all.the boxes.... they have no finance no infrastructure no experience of even helicopter project and will jump or order a small quantity of j35 if they can in 2030.period

 

[That Guy]

No one is forcing the IAF.

What has changed is the political dispensation's attitude towards indigenous programs. Self-reliance is the new mantra and there is heavy emphasis on it since the NDA govt came to power. And the IAF brass simply have realised that there is no alternative, affordable option and the Govt. is not going to spend $10-12 billion on a foreign import for a MiG-21 Bison replacement, when they can't even get the MRCA to be contracted.

Self reliance has always been the mantra, and I've been hearing about it from India for literally decades. Nothing has changed.

Its very clear that the IAF does not want to buy the Tejas, considering that its orders are still far below what manufacturers have been demanding of the IAF. If anything, the IAF seems to be wanting more foreign fighters such as the Rafale.

As it stands, the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A offer the IAF pretty much everything it has asked for from a light fighter and more. In fact, the Mk1A will be the most technologically modern fighter in the IAF inventory after the Rafale, even more so than the Mirage-2000I which still uses a pulse doppler RDY-3 radar.

From what I've been reading, this is very much not true. In fact, the Tejas still has major issues with it, and the fact that its so heavily dependent on foreign parts has made maintenance a nightmare.

And with Tejas Mk2 to come after this to replace Mirage-2000, MiG-29s and Jaguars, the Tejas family will more than meet the original goal.

I'll believe it when I see it.

By the way, do you believe that the PAF would have gone in for the JF-17 if a Gripen were available with full ToT and license manufacture in Pakistan? Don't kid yourself for a minute that they would have done so.

Nope, I don't see any realisitc alternative time line where PAF would ever go buy a Gripen, and I don't know why you're acting like i ever even thought about it. Also a full ToT from a European company to Pakistan? Why would they ever do such a thing?

Pakistan had enormous budgetary and political embargo related difficulties which meant that whatever was on offer from China was acceptable. They had no other option, so they made the best of it.

Fyi, the fighter that we now know as the JF-17 Thunder was originally a Pakistani idea, and the original project was called the Saber II project. The Saber II project was eventually canned, as Pakistan decided to partner with China who coincidently had their own project the Super-7 (FC-1) project. Pakistan brought over all of its knowledge from its time working on the Saber II and of course its knowledge and experience with the F-16s to build the Thunder.

My point being, it wasn't a Chinese offer, it was a partnership. Don't make it sound like Pakistan begged China, or that China went to Pakistan with a Faustian bargain. China itself got a lot of valuable information from the thunder project, which ended up being a test bed for a number of Chinese technologies that would end up being incorporated into other advanced Chinese fighters such as the J-10.

 

[MirageBlue]

Self reliance has always been the mantra, and I've been hearing about it from India for literally decades. Nothing has changed.

A lot has changed. Most importantly the political mindset which was casual and completely ignored the extreme costs of massive imports. Make In India and Atmanirbhar Bharat are not just buzzwords but part of the Defence Procurement Procedures and even a negative list of 100 products that cannot be imported has been released.

Its very clear that the IAF does not want to buy the Tejas, considering that its orders are still far below what manufacturers have been demanding of the IAF. If anything, the IAF seems to be wanting more foreign fighters such as the Rafale.

Of course the IAF wants to buy the Rafale, it is a superb fighter. But the IAF knows it cannot get 126 Rafales + 114 + 36 Rafales to replace the MiG-21 Bison and other fighters that have retired over the years. There are 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A orders contracted for. That's nearly as much as the PAF has for the JF-17 to date. Yet you say that the IAF doesn't want to buy the Tejas..lol.

From what I've been reading, this is very much not true. In fact, the Tejas still has major issues with it, and the fact that its so heavily dependent on foreign parts has made maintenance a nightmare.

Please do inform us what are the "major issues" with the Tejas, with authoritative sources. We too are aware of the JF-17's maintenance issues and the problems it has with Chinese avionics and Russian RD-93 but that doesn't mean that the PAF is going to dump them is it?

Nope, I don't see any realisitc alternative time line where PAF would ever go buy a Gripen, and I don't know why you're acting like i ever even thought about it. Also a full ToT from a European company to Pakistan? Why would they ever do such a thing?

It was a hypothetical situation..groan..

IF the PAF could have bought the Gripen C and received ToT from Saab to build 100s of Gripen Cs in Pakistan, do you genuinely believe that they would have given a rat's *** about the JF-17?? They'd have dumped it like a hot potato since a superior fighter THAT WAS ALREADY READY, would've been available.

That's the way the IAF viewed the LCA program, a desi fighter that they were luke-warm to because it was believed to be many things,..too ambitious given the state of Indian industry back then, ridiculous timelines, etc. etc. They just thought it would die as a program because of it's delays and they would be able to import a foreign fighter instead. Things are very very different now, where the IAF WANTS the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A to be delivered as fast as HAL can build them. Now the question marks are on HAL's ability to scale up the production of the Tejas, no one is questioning the capability of the Tejas. It is considered as a great fighter in IAF circles, as much as you won't wanna believe that.

Fyi, the fighter that we now know as the JF-17 Thunder was originally a Pakistani idea, and the original project was called the Saber II project. The Saber II project was eventually canned, as Pakistan decided to partner with China who coincidently had their own project the Super-7 (FC-1) project. Pakistan brought over all of its knowledge from its time working on the Saber II and of course its knowledge and experience with the F-16s to build the Thunder.

I know the history of the project very well, right from the 1980s when Grumman wanted to help with a Super-7 upgrade for the J-7s with radar and modified side mounted air intakes.

Pakistan may have contributed in the sense of money, flight testing knowledge and the exposure to Western systems and F-16 fighters, but all the design work and actual engineering was done by CAC in China. There is no disputing that Pakistan did not contribute by way of any actual indigenous avionics or systems on board the FC-1.

My point being, it wasn't a Chinese offer, it was a partnership. Don't make it sound like Pakistan begged China, or that China went to Pakistan with a Faustian bargain. China itself got a lot of valuable information from the thunder project, which ended up being a test bed for a number of Chinese technologies that would end up being incorporated into other advanced Chinese fighters such as the J-10.

Oh absolutely China gained from the FC-1 project, thousands of jobs, billions of USD in revenue, but they had already got the J-10 in development when the FC-1 emerged. So had there been no FC-1, it wouldn't have made that much of a difference to them since they were working on the J-10 and had plans for the J-20 already in the works. If anything, the JF-17 benefited from Chinese advancements on the J-10 and J-20 programs, plus the Su-30 clones.

How highly the Chinese think of the FC-1 or JF-17 can be gauged from the fact that to date they have bought ZERO, even though they have hundreds of obsolete J-7s to replace and a production line in full swing at CAC.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

What was the technical contribution of Pakistan to the development of JF-17? Aerodynamics, Avionics, fabrication aspects, FBW, integration of the concept? NOPE

Considering your argument it is very clear that Pakistan has no know how in this aspect. When you use word JOINT in the real world you bring a portion of development to the table. You take on a certain share of design and manufacturing to a project.

I will tell you what was Pakistan’s contribution. Pakistan needed a fighter since there was nothing available from established manufacturers. China offered assistance by developing one for Pakistan. Pakistan sent its people over to China to lay down the specifications and QRs. China used its technical know how to develop one and passed on the assembling process to Pakistan.

Use of word JOINT doesn’t mean - one country develops a aircraft based on certain QRs - thereafter finalises the manufacturing process- passes on the know how of the assembling to a second country- second country starts assembling by the supplied material AND starts using word JOINT.

I hope you are able to understand the difference. If it is still not clear then let me know. We will give some other example to make it clear.

Here the thing where you are wrong mate...

Jet was designed according to PAFs requirements but PAC and CAC along woth Mikoyan worked on the design... mikoyan provided the engine related design support...

So that is 3 countries.. secondly we learned a lot and that is the reason we are making 58% in Pakistan...

As for contribution Pakistan contributed not only in design but also in avionics and most importantly in coding...

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

A lot has changed. Most importantly the political mindset which was casual and completely ignored the extreme costs of massive imports. Make In India and Atmanirbhar Bharat are not just buzzwords but part of the Defence Procurement Procedures and even a negative list of 100 products that cannot be imported has been released.



Of course the IAF wants to buy the Rafale, it is a superb fighter. But the IAF knows it cannot get 126 Rafales + 114 + 36 Rafales to replace the MiG-21 Bison and other fighters that have retired over the years. There are 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A orders contracted for. That's nearly as much as the PAF has for the JF-17 to date. Yet you say that the IAF doesn't want to buy the Tejas..lol.



Please do inform us what are the "major issues" with the Tejas, with authoritative sources. We too are aware of the JF-17's maintenance issues and the problems it has with Chinese avionics and Russian RD-93 but that doesn't mean that the PAF is going to dump them is it?



It was a hypothetical situation..groan..

IF the PAF could have bought the Gripen C and received ToT from Saab to build 100s of Gripen Cs in Pakistan, do you genuinely believe that they would have given a rat's *** about the JF-17?? They'd have dumped it like a hot potato since a superior fighter THAT WAS ALREADY READY, would've been available.

That's the way the IAF viewed the LCA program, a desi fighter that they were luke-warm to because it was believed to be many things,..too ambitious given the state of Indian industry back then, ridiculous timelines, etc. etc. They just thought it would die as a program because of it's delays and they would be able to import a foreign fighter instead. Things are very very different now, where the IAF WANTS the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A to be delivered as fast as HAL can build them. Now the question marks are on HAL's ability to scale up the production of the Tejas, no one is questioning the capability of the Tejas. It is considered as a great fighter in IAF circles, as much as you won't wanna believe that.



I know the history of the project very well, right from the 1980s when Grumman wanted to help with a Super-7 upgrade for the J-7s with radar and modified side mounted air intakes.

Pakistan may have contributed in the sense of money, flight testing knowledge and the exposure to Western systems and F-16 fighters, but all the design work and actual engineering was done by CAC in China. There is no disputing that Pakistan did not contribute by way of any actual indigenous avionics or systems on board the FC-1.



Oh absolutely China gained from the FC-1 project, thousands of jobs, billions of USD in revenue, but they had already got the J-10 in development when the FC-1 emerged. So had there been no FC-1, it wouldn't have made that much of a difference to them since they were working on the J-10 and had plans for the J-20 already in the works. If anything, the JF-17 benefited from Chinese advancements on the J-10 and J-20 programs, plus the Su-30 clones.

How highly the Chinese think of the FC-1 or JF-17 can be gauged from the fact that to date they have bought ZERO, even though they have hundreds of obsolete J-7s to replace and a production line in full swing at CAC.

Lolx 40% JF17 grounded wale propaganda k baad banda esi baate karta he ☝

Problems with RD93 and maintenance issues thats why CAP role has been transferred to JF17s

Anyways PAC/CAC and Mikoyan all 3 designed the JF17 not only CAC... according to PAFs requirements..

Secondly China developed J10 which was much advance jet which is the reason JF17 was never inducted into PLAAF

No one is forcing the IAF.

What has changed is the political dispensation's attitude towards indigenous programs. Self-reliance is the new mantra and there is heavy emphasis on it since the NDA govt came to power. And the IAF brass simply have realised that there is no alternative, affordable option and the Govt. is not going to spend $10-12 billion on a foreign import for a MiG-21 Bison replacement, when they can't even get the MRCA to be contracted.

As it stands, the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A offer the IAF pretty much everything it has asked for from a light fighter and more. In fact, the Mk1A will be the most technologically modern fighter in the IAF inventory after the Rafale, even more so than the Mirage-2000I which still uses a pulse doppler RDY-3 radar.

And with Tejas Mk2 to come after this to replace Mirage-2000, MiG-29s and Jaguars, the Tejas family will more than meet the original goal.

By the way, do you believe that the PAF would have gone in for the JF-17 if a Gripen were available with full ToT and license manufacture in Pakistan? Don't kid yourself for a minute that they would have done so.

Pakistan had enormous budgetary and political embargo related difficulties which meant that whatever was on offer from China was acceptable. They had no other option, so they made the best of it.

Pakistan would have as Gripen wouldn't have been able to give us the numbers Gripen would have been in superiority role with F16s

 

[MirageBlue]

Lolx 40% JF17 grounded wale propaganda k baad banda esi baate karta he ☝

Problems with RD93 and maintenance issues thats why CAP role has been transferred to JF17s

Anyways PAC/CAC and Mikoyan all 3 designed the JF17 not only CAC... according to PAFs requirements..

Secondly China developed J10 which was much advance jet which is the reason JF17 was never inducted into PLAAF

Pakistan would have as Gripen wouldn't have been able to give us the numbers Gripen would have been in superiority role with F16s

Oh the level of intellect these guys display..no wonder the nation is heading backwards.

 

[The Maverick]

A nation that has indengiously developed it's own nuclear powered submarines.ie Arihant over a,dozen modern destroyers and frigates,ie Kolkata and shivilk . designed and inducted over 200 dhruv helicopters inducted now 23 Tejas fighters,4th generation era it's own bvr and stand off strike weapons spy satalites and sent them.into orbit on indian rockets

can and will.develope Amca
this array of science and engineering military tech has amply demonstrated indian capability.

in contrast a nation that is yet to build it's own helicopters or small patrol.boat is suppose to build a fifth gen fighter.

your financial resources,are what one tenth of ours, do you have the billions in dollars,to actually do this,.

or are you going budget again.like thunders

 

[VkdIndian]

As for contribution Pakistan contributed not only in design but also in avionics and most importantly in coding...

Nothing documented anywhere. It’s just your word.
Although it is a fashion on PDF to demand proof for everything, I would accept your word here. If Pakistan has really achieved what you claim then it is commendable.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Oh the level of intellect these guys display..no wonder the nation is heading backwards.

Well thats is what we always think about india and andhbhakti intellectual pajeets

I can prove more than half of things I have said unlike you propagandists..

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

A nation that has indengiously developed it's own nuclear powered submarines.ie Arihant over a,dozen modern destroyers and frigates,ie Kolkata and shivilk . designed and inducted over 200 dhruv helicopters inducted now 23 Tejas fighters,4th generation era it's own bvr and stand off strike weapons spy satalites and sent them.into orbit on indian rockets

can and will.develope Amca
this array of science and engineering military tech has amply demonstrated indian capability.

in contrast a nation that is yet to build it's own helicopters or small patrol.boat is suppose to build a fifth gen fighter.

your financial resources,are what one tenth of ours, do you have the billions in dollars,to actually do this,.

or are you going budget again.like thunders

4th gen tejas was 20 years late and AMCA hasn't even got a prototype when 5th gens started around its development era so much for chest thumping with all those above mentioned programs

And Pakistan doesnt need its own helicopter seeing its requirements... as for patrol boats we are building corvettes with Turkish help and small subs and boats our own only if you had looked into it... btw what has naval development to do with air arm ? Our navy is small and not that advanced but our air forces has always shown its might and will always do...

And we have been hearing all this since 1972.. small budget no talent bla bla bla.. we started with 1 factory today its has developed to an Aviation city...

As for AZM it is going to be basic 5th gen like JF17 was and will be built upon in block by block approach...

 

[VkdIndian]

As soon as the high level intellectuals here start using words like andhbhatks, Bhakts, pajeets, cow dung etc it is time to move on because that is end of any meaningful discussion.
Abusive language is used at what stage in a discussion / argument?