IAF Mirage 2000 upgrade: Scam of Biblical Proportions

[Abingdonboy]

that amounts to scam only

and honestly what did we get for 40 million??
how can u defend this?

on the other topic,,su-34 is a dedicated bomber and will kick mirage 2000 arse

And how does the SU-34 fare in a2a warfare?


And the 40 mill is easily defendable as I have stated above.

 

[he-man]

And how does the SU-34 fare in a2a warfare?


And the 40 mill is easily defendable as I have stated above.

na its shitty for a to a role and so would be mirage 2000.......................for aerial warfare we already have mig 29 and su-30 and in future rafale and pakfa

thats the whole issue

 

[Abingdonboy]

na its shitty for a to a role and so would be mirage 2000.......................for aerial warfare we already have mig 29 and su-30 and in future rafale and pakfa

thats the whole issue

So you want to replace the multi-role, single-engined, easy to maintain M2k the IAF is familiar and happy with, with the single-role, Russian (synonymous with hard to maintain and pi$$-poor serviceability) twin engined which is an entirely NEW system for the IAF and hence will intial costs will be great.

 

[he-man]

So you want to replace the multi-role, single-engined, easy to maintain M2k the IAF is familiar and happy with, with the single-role, Russian (synonymous with hard to maintain and pi$$-poor serviceability) twin engined which is an entirely NEW system for the IAF and hence will intial costs will be great.

yes if the new su-34 costs same as upgrade for old mirage 2000 whose service life left is 12-13 years

yes..............

 

[kaykay]

IAF is just upgrading it(even if its costly) because they have mastered on this aircraft and there's no way they can scrap their skills developed on this platform. Also mirages are our sole nuclear carriers aircrafts(we just can't leave it).

 

[he-man]

it

And how does the SU-34 fare in a2a warfare?


And the 40 mill is easily defendable as I have stated above.

is not if u consider mirage 2000 life left is just 12-13 years

if we had 40 million for new plane its life would have been 30 years atleast 

IAF is just upgrading it(even if its costly) because they have mastered on this aircraft and there's no way they can scrap their skills developed on this platform. Also mirages are our sole nuclear carriers aircrafts(we just can't leave it).

but it dosen't exonerates iaf for poor planning
they should have anticipated all these points 5 years ago,,,,,,heck they were negotiating for years for this upgrade.

no one can justify 40 million for a plane whose life left is only 12-13 years

 

[kaykay]

it

is not if u consider mirage 2000 life left is just 12-13 years

if we had 40 million for new plane its life would have been 30 years atleast 

but it dosen't exonerates iaf for poor planning
they should have anticipated all these points 5 years ago,,,,,,heck they were negotiating for years for this upgrade.

no one can justify 40 million for a plane whose life left is only 12-13 years

No doubt its costly but we have no option now. And again it will serve for atleat 20 years more after upgradations.

 

[he-man]

no man it

No doubt its costly but we have no option now. And again it will serve for atleat 20 years more after upgradations.

has life left of only 12-13 years

 

[janon]

that amounts to scam only

and honestly what did we get for 40 million??
how can u defend this?

on the other topic,,su-34 is a dedicated bomber and will kick mirage 2000 arse

All this, and more:

the upgrade will bring India’s Mirages to the full Mirage 2000v5 Mk 2 standard

, including a new RDY-3 radar with greater air-air and air-ground capability, a new night vision compatible all-digital cockpit, and improved electronic warfare systems. These will be tied into a joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS, usually Link 16 compatible but not always), plus helmet-mounted sights for wide-angle heat-seeking missiles. As part of the upgrade, the aircraft will also be equipped with MBDA’s Mica family of medium range missiles.
MBDA was probably unamused by India Defence’s December 2006 description of its wares as “an advanced medium-range missile that is the French counterpart to the more capable American AMRAAM missile [link added]“. MICA would actually replace both the radar-guided Super 350 MRAAM and Magic-II short-range infrared missiles on Indian Mirages, offering better performance and range. While the MICA-RF does have mediocre range compared to the AIM-120C AMRAAM, or even the Russian R-77 used by the IAF’s SU-30MKIs, it’s unique in offering a MICA-IR heat-seeking IR version for a potent medium range ‘no warning’ targeting option. French pilots who used the MICA-IR over Libya report that its sensor alone is a useful input to their systems, and its passive seeker with lock-on after launch means that it can be fired from beyond visual range at enemy aircraft, without creating any warning from the opposing fighter’s radar warning receivers. India will join France, Egypt, Greece, Taiwan and the UAE as operators of the Mirage 2000/MICA combo.

Ability to fire MICA is itself a game changer. That means that every one of these mirages can get an almost guaranteed kill in BVR range, with the enemy fighters not even knowing what hit them. A missile with passive sensors with LOAL - that means that it won't register on the enemy's MWRs, and the enemy will not take any evasive action in time.

That's just one aspect. The upgrade is quite comprehensive - the mission computer and navigation equipments will be the same a those on the Rafale. Every bit of the electronics is being changed. Other than the airframe, everything will be 4.5++ gen.

Now is all that worth the price? Maybe it is too expensive - but french stuff is expensive, and this is a platform that we have a lot of experience on. On paper it may look better to get a new aircraft, but in reality that is not so. Consider the wealth of tactics, doctrines and infrastructure the IAF has built up over the years for these birds. (BTW, if you consider the infrastructure and logistics and spares and maintainence depots for a new platform, this upgrade price will pale in comparison.) The cost of ownership of a new aircraft is not simply the flyaway cost of the new birds. It includes all the costs mentioned above, plus the man hours spent in training flying and ground crews, developing new tactics and so on. It is far easier and cost effective to upgrade the platform they have so much experience on, and have come to love.

BTW you are factually wrong in claiming that they have ony 12 years life left. They will have a service life of 20-25 years after the upgrades:

CCS to consider $ 3bn deal with France to upgrade Mirage 2000 - The Hindu

The upgrades will help to add 20-25 years to the life of the Mirages, which were inducted by the IAF in the mid-80s and are deployed at its Maharajpura air base in Gwalior.

The IAF are not idiots, if it was cheaper to get new platforms, they would do so - after all, who wouldn't like to fly spanking new jets? They know much better than us, that getting a new platform would mean giving up all the costs that have been sunk into the mirage platform so far, for setting up infra and training, and also spending all that on the new platform.

Yes, french stuff is expensive - but we get cutting edge stuff for that, and it is cheaper than getting a new platform. Looking at flyaway costs of new platforms does not give the complete picture.

 

[he-man]

All this, and more:



Ability to fire MICA is itself a game changer. That means that every one of these mirages can get an almost guaranteed kill in BVR range, with the enemy fighters not even knowing what hit them. A missile with passive sensors with LOAL - that means that it won't register on the enemy's MWRs, and the enemy will not take any evasive action in time.

That's just one aspect. The upgrade is quite comprehensive - the mission computer and navigation equipments will be the same a those on the Rafale. Every bit of the electronics is being changed. Other than the airframe, everything will be 4.5++ gen.

Now is all that worth the price? Maybe it is too expensive - but french stuff is expensive, and this is a platform that we have a lot of experience on. On paper it may look better to get a new aircraft, but in reality that is not so. Consider the wealth of tactics, doctrines and infrastructure the IAF has built up over the years for these birds. (BTW, if you consider the infrastructure and logistics and spares and maintainence depots for a new platform, this upgrade price will pale in comparison.) The cost of ownership of a new aircraft is not simply the flyaway cost of the new birds. It includes all the costs mentioned above, plus the man hours spent in training flying and ground crews, developing new tactics and so on. It is far easier and cost effective to upgrade the platform they have so much experience on, and have come to love.

BTW you are factually wrong in claiming that they have ony 12 years life left. They will have a service life of 20-25 years after the upgrades:

CCS to consider $ 3bn deal with France to upgrade Mirage 2000 - The Hindu



The IAF are not idiots, if it was cheaper to get new platforms, they would do so - after all, who wouldn't like to fly spanking new jets? They know much better than us, that getting a new platform would mean giving up all the costs that have been sunk into the mirage platform so far, for setting up infra and training, and also spending all that on the new platform.

Yes, french stuff is expensive - but we get cutting edge stuff for that, and it is cheaper than getting a new platform. Looking at flyaway costs of new platforms does not give the complete picture.

u really think that mica missile,rdy-2 radar,cockpit and ew suite would cost 40 million??

are u smoking?

a new mig -29k with better everything costs 40 million

 

[janon]

u really think that mica missile,rdy-2 radar,cockpit and ew suite would cost 40 million??

are u smoking?

a new mig -29k with better everything costs 40 million

Sigh! Are you really interested in a discussion, and are you sincerely looking to understand something? What is the point of responding to a long and detailed post with an "are you smoking" remark?

Did I say how much all that ought to cost?

OTOH I did make a few statements about associated costs and remaining service life, all of which apparently went over your head.

Please don't start threads if your sole intention is to abuse anybody who responds, an you have already made up in your mind that it's all a scam.

In that case, take it to the vigilance commision or a law court, file a greivance petition, instead of starting threads on PDF. If on the other hand your questions are with the genuine understanding of learning something, then try to listen carefully to the responses.

 

[kaykay]

no man it

has life left of only 12-13 years

without upgradations, yes. But with upgradations atleast 20 years more. I am stating an officer who said it in some article you can google it.

 

[he-man]

Sigh! Are you really interested in a discussion, and are you sincerely looking to understand something? What is the point of responding to a long and detailed post with an "are you smoking" remark?

Did I say how much all that ought to cost?

OTOH I did make a few statements about associated costs and remaining service life, all of which apparently went over your head.

Please don't start threads if your sole intention is to abuse anybody who responds, an you have already made up in your mind that it's all a scam.

In that case, take it to the vigilance commision or a law court, file a greivance petition. If oon the other hand your questions are with the genuine understanding of learning something, then try to listen carefully to the responses.

just prove ur point man...........

where is mirage 2000 better than mig-29 k

just name one parameter...............except a to g role where it is.

anything else??

no

so why does upgrade cost the price of a new mig-29k??its a simple question 

without upgradations, yes. But with upgradations atleast 20 years more. I am stating an officer who said it in some article you can google it.

i really doubt it

airframe is same and so are engines

mirages wee sourced between 1985 and 88

now tell me how is it possible that aircraft will have life of 50 years even after upgrades??

its impossible 
@janon
do u know the ew suite of upgraded mirage 2000 or jammers??
i know only of rdy-2 radar and mig-29k zhuk me is better than it

i am interested in a discussion but pls give objective analysis of whats in upgraded mirage 2000??

 

[janon]

just prove ur point man...........

where is mirage 2000 better than mig-29 k

just name one parameter...............except a to g role where it is.

anything else??

no

so why does upgrade cost the price of a new mig-29k??its a simple question

Please read my response again. Flyaway cost is only one small portion of the cost of ownership of a platform. If is was as easy as looking at price of jets and their capabilities, anybody with an intenet connection could decide the nature of the IAF fleet. Things are not so simplistic. Please understand all the associated costs, compared to which aquisition costs pale into insignificance. Training, logistics, spares, maintainence depots, not to mention the wealth of tactics and doctrines that have been developed over decades - do you expect the IAF to throw all that away because the flyaway cost of a mig-29k is cheaper?

I repeat - things are not so simplistic and trite.

 

[he-man]

the other point is that it will take 7 years for upgrades to complete

what the hell??