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IAF MIG29SMT Superior to F16/52 Report

@WindJammer
F-86 v SU-7 India/Pakistan conflict
Su-7 was a ground attack aircraft. How can you compare it to the Sabre?
Gnats were the Sabre's primary opponents and if I remember right they gave as good as they got against the Sabres.

If you are talking about 65 war only 2 squadrons of F-86s were equipped with lame 1st generation heat seekers which gave sabers little edge over IAF however IAF had a response by inducting 14 earlier version Mig-21 which were whipped out during air strike. other then 2 Saber squadron the rest sabers were inferior to IAF Gnat, and Hunters.
In 71 war IAF Mig-21 which were a generation (3rd gen) ahead of PAF fleet. however PAF F-6 and F-86 had better record in air against Mig-21 then vice-versa.
 
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@WindJammer
F-86 v SU-7 India/Pakistan conflict
Su-7 was a ground attack aircraft. How can you compare it to the Sabre?
Gnats were the Sabre's primary opponents and if I remember right they gave as good as they got against the Sabres.

Indeed there is no comparison, as the F-86 was a Korean vintage subsonic mover while the SU-7 was a latter day supersonic aircraft.
Sabre's prominent opponent in both 1965 and 1971 was actually the British built Hunter 36 of which were shot down in 1971 while the SU-7 was runner up with 32 being destroyed, however most of the engagements materialized between the F-86s and SU-7s.
The Gnat may have scored a few victories against the F-86 but then again the humble Sabre shot down at least two MIG-21s.
 
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In Iraq invasion campaign US kill Iraqi MiG-29 with BVR.
It does not prove inferior training of Iraqi pilots rather technological disadvantage.
If Iraqis also had Eurofighter or Raptors armed with BVR than they could also have equal kills.
So don't exagurate without knowing the true facts and dynamics.

You don't quote any credible sources for what you wrote and then claim I exaggerate "without knowing the true facts and dynamics"?! Lame.

Now here is an excerpt from F-15 Eagle Engaged: The World's Most Successful Jet Fighter written by Steve Davies and Doug Dildy (ISBN: 9781846031694) -

The Soviet supplied MiG-29s were believed to have not been provided with the R-27/AA-10 'Alamo' radar missile, or the advanced high off-boresight and the highly maneuverable R-73/AA-11 'Archer' IR missile, but this could not be counted on by USAF fighter squadrons. Additionally, the NO-193 'Slot Black' radar was significantly downgraded from those in Soviet or Warsaw Pact air arms and proved very poor in the look-down/shoot-down scenario. Thus, as with NVN pilots decades before, Iraqi pilots required GCi vectors to close with incoming adversaries. However, even without the BVR capability, the 'Fulcrum's' excellent maneuverability, very agile short-range R-60/AA-8 'Aphid' IR missile and GSh-301 30mm gun made it an excellent point defense interceptor that would have to be swept away from the Coalition's high-priority targets so that the strikers could get in and begin to dismantle and destroy the IRAF's IADS.

Now, in your next post you will definitely post some internet articles written by amateur self-proclaimed "military experts" who will claim that the Iraqi MiG-29s were indeed armed with R-27. The point is, even if they had R-27 missiles, they were still doomed to fail because they didn't have the more potent R-73 missiles and most importantly, their NO-193 radar was severely down-graded.

So... why were Iraqi radars down-graded? Perhaps the Soviets weren't very keen to sell their top radar. Perhaps the Iraqis couldn't afford it.
 
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In Iraq invasion campaign US kill Iraqi MiG-29 with BVR.
It does not prove inferior training of Iraqi pilots rather technological disadvantage.
If Iraqis also had Eurofighter or Raptors armed with BVR than they could also have equal kills.
So don't exagurate without knowing the true facts and dynamics.

So... in my previous comment I proved you wrong regarding the MiG-29 being at a technical disadvantage compared to the F-15s. To be precise, it were specifically the Iraqi MiG-29s which were at a technical disadvantage. The MiG-29s as such is a more potent platform for air-to-air combat compared to the F-15s provided that their operator adequately equip them with potent missiles and radars.

Now lets talk about Iraqi pilot training -

On target : organizing and executing the strategic air campaign against Iraq by Richard G Davis (ISBN: 9781428990241) -

The MiG-29 seemed less formidable close-up. It had below average pilots, even Soviet advisors judged them as not as good as Soviet pilots, and it lacked AA-11 advanced missile. In addition, its pilots spent little time in training for look-down, shoot-down engagements. MiG-29 pilots, like most Iraqi pilots, flew only 9 hours a month, most of the time with visual rules. Iraqi pilots were weak on maneuver combat, disliked high-G and high-power moves, and were overly dependent on GCI. Even F-1E pilots, the Iraqis' best, received ratings of below average from their instructor pilots.
 
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In Iraq invasion campaign US kill Iraqi MiG-29 with BVR.
It does not prove inferior training of Iraqi pilots rather technological disadvantage.
If Iraqis also had Eurofighter or Raptors armed with BVR than they could also have equal kills.
So don't exagurate without knowing the true facts and dynamics.

I want to add some more interesting assessments of Iraqi pilots' capabilities by US analysts -

Guardians of the Gulf: A History of America's Expanding Role in the Persion Gulf, 1883-1992 by Michael A Palmer (ISBN: 9780684871066) -

Nor were the Iraqi pilots well trained compared to their Western and Arab counterparts. The Soviet flight instructors referred to their Iraqi students as "stoneheads". During the course of the warfare, the Iraqi pilots downed more of their own aircraft than they did Allied aircraft. According to analyst Norman Friedman, on January 17, one Iraqi pilot flying a MiG-29 downed his flight leader, then flew into ground himself.

:lol:

That proves my statement that even if you give Iraq Eurofighters and Raptors, they still will have no chance to shoot down an enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat.

:)
 
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I want to add some more interesting assessments of Iraqi pilots' capabilities by US analysts -

Guardians of the Gulf: A History of America's Expanding Role in the Persion Gulf, 1883-1992 by Michael A Palmer (ISBN: 9780684871066) -



:lol:

That proves my statement that even if you give Iraq Eurofighters and Raptors, they still will have no chance to shoot down an enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat.

:)

Am not sure if it was just the Iraqis,,,think same problems with all Arab Air Forces trained and supplied by the USSR.
 
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Am not sure if it was just the Iraqis,,,think same problems with all Arab Air Forces trained and supplied by the USSR.

Well... I can't disagree. Arab air force pilots in general have a pathetic record, especially against Israeli Air Force.

But seriously, how many times do we get to read these gems -

The Soviet flight instructors referred to their Iraqi students as "stoneheads".

During the course of the warfare, the Iraqi pilots downed more of their own aircraft than they did Allied aircraft.

On January 17, one Iraqi pilot flying a MiG-29 downed his flight leader, then flew into ground himself.

I still can't stop laughing...
 
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Well... I can't disagree. Arab air force pilots in general have a pathetic record, especially against Israeli Air Force.

But seriously, how many times do we get to read these gems -



I still can't stop laughing...

Cant remember detailsbut the only F15 shot down in combat was one Pakistan plane shooting down another Pakistan Plane. They dont like to talk about so thats just between me and you.:sniper:
 
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Cant remember detailsbut the only F15 shot down in combat was one Pakistan plane shooting down another Pakistan Plane. They dont like to talk about so thats just between me and you.:sniper:

You sure F-15s? IIRC, PAF has no F-15s!

And no F-15 has ever been shot down, ever! 0-107 combat kill ratio!
 
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You sure F-15s? IIRC, PAF has no F-15s!

And no F-15 has ever been shot down, ever! 0-107 combat kill ratio!

it was F-16 i guess which was flown by Fl Lt Qadri (not confirmed) which was hit by sidewinder fired by winger while engaging a Russian invader
 
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The link you quote talks about the service life of the engine. 4K hours service life of the RD-33MK is when the F-16 engine is up for the 2nd overhaul (done at 2K intervals) with a total life on the GE F110 engines of around 8000 hours. As such there is a big difference in the longevity of the Western engines with that of Russian ones.
I also think that Russian engines are not as good as western in maintenance, but I think the new versions aren't that far away. Btw 8000h for GE F110, or do you mean the total service life for F16? The newer GE 414 engine that the LCA MK2 could get is sometimes reported with 7 - 8000h, so I have some doubts that older engines could serve the same time. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but PAFs F16 doesn't have GE engines right? Block 15 and 52 normally use P&W engines.
HAL will be assembling engines. There is a difference between production and assembly...you need to get spares and kits for the latter. Its a costly affair with dependence on supplier for timely delivery of components.
No not only assembling, HAL is manufacturing Russian designed engines for some years and also makes the overhauling of the engines.
Exactly because IAF don't want to be too dependant on Russian components we produce more and more parts in India. Reports say Su 30 MKI will be produced completely (airframe, engines, avionics...) in India by next year.
Possible, however all news reports seems to be pointing to fact that if a new Mig-29/35 deal goes through, the existing aircraft and their upgrades would be different from the MMRCA Mig-35s. But you could be right on the commonality.
First of all Mig 35 for IAF is hypothetical, why not think about already ordered fighters. The upg Mig 29 of IAF and the new Mig 29K of IN (16 - 45) will have the same Zhuk ME radar, same upgrades on OLS and weapons and most likely same avionics too. Also upg MKI and FGFA are planed with commonality to reduce costs, most likely with same Klimov S117 engines, similar avionics and weapons. So IAF and IN clearly are looking for less difference and lower maintenance costs.
The Erieye would negate the advantage of the MKI radar given the profile that we would most commonly see the PAF fly. Air defence missions are usually always flown under positive radar coverage. For strike etc., you do require aircraft with their own AI capability however if the past is a precedence to go by, at least PAF aircraft will be conducting most sorties to support air defence missions over own airspace. Not discounting the need for AI radars, but I think there will be considerable redundancy in the near future.
That's what I said, when PAF will have all planed AWACS aircrafts inducted the advantage of IAF will be equalised, but this will take some time. Till that the MKI/Phalcon AWACS combination gives clearly superiority in this field and BVR combats.
That's why I don't see the induction of new F16 as a big problem for IAF, because they won't make a big difference, but the situational awareness advantage with AWACS will be a much greater benefit for PAF and I guess that's why Antony is pushing Russia for faster development of Pak Fa/FGFA and that's also why I expect a fighter with very low RCS to win MMRCA.

However, I think we've gone to far. Back to topic!
 
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it was F-16 i guess which was flown by Fl Lt Qadri (not confirmed) which was hit by sidewinder fired by winger while engaging a Russian invader

Could have been F16,, but thought it was only one shot down in air to air combat,,,I talked to a retired AF instructior that had taught air combat in the middle east,,, he said it was almost impossible, that you could not get an Arab to accept responsiblity for any thing, first they would blame some one else or the equipment,, an in the end rather then saying I did that wrong they would just say "inshallah," some kind of culture thing. He said that attitude was fine when you were dealing with camels but it sure did not work when flying or maintaining planes,,,he said thats why they had so many crashs per flying hours,, I dont know the satistics but its bad, India is the same way he said.
 
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If India is buying more Migs then wts bad in that....
They shld......coz they know their ~120 MKI, 60 Mig 29, 40 Mirage, 125 Mig 21 Biason and 100 Jaguar might face against 40 F-16, 200 Mirage, 200 F7, 40 A5 and 160 J-10, 300 J-8, 400-500 F-7, 100 Su 30 MKK, 76 Su 27, 130 J-11, 100 JH-7, 100 H-6, 480 A5/Q5

Green and red are supperoir in quality and quantity.

Dont worry, we are going to have 4.5th generation fighters in our fleet

Double standard...Double standard...

Same Mirage in blue became weaker than Mirage in Green? :azn:
Common..it would have been better to sit back close the eyes take a deep breath and pat your own back than post this
 
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