IAF backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'

[Viper0011.]

What a Big RELIEF for our " FRIENDS " in Pakistan

Some statements HAD to be made DIPLOMATICALLY given the Heartburn they were causing to UK Government and RAF and Eurofighter Consortium. But Facts are Facts

Oh people like you will never change!!! You debated with me and wrote me a lengthy article on the first thread on this topic. Couldn't give me ONE valid reason as to WHERE were the facts and why IAF made up the story???? I ever provided you with the actual count. But it didn't help.

Here you are again. What are the facts you are referring to and where are those? If the facts are fake Indian pride in people's head.....well that's not a fact. This is where a real conversation goes south so bad that one loses it!!!! How about we remain factual?

@MilSpec : when you get personal with me on posts, these are the reasons majority of the times I'd get India-negative. Read the above post. These are silly statements without a base that annoy everyone (specially someone actually knows a thing about an event in discussion). I just wanted you to see it. It would be VERY nice if everyone just remained factual and life moves on without getting into a verbal battle to prove a wrong to right!

Lol. Now this statement has given for making smile on UK face. Every body knows the result

I POSTED the results a few days ago. And not every body knows these results. The Indian results were wrong and unprofessionally made up. Just because 1 Million people thing men should give birth, doesn't mean they will!!!

Ask a few of your buddies on the first thread on the topic. And TRUST me, the results were FAR from 12-0!!!! The funny thing is, there are plenty of people from India (or there should be atleast) on here, who know in Dog Fight, even having a great place such as the SU-30, there are some draw backs.

For example, it won multiple battles initially with the EFT due to its instantaneous thrust and TVC. But the second they learned the aerodynamics and its speed and maneuvering; they took it down in remainder of the dog fights, ending in 2-2. Kill shot technique works very well against the SU-30 or for majority of the 4-4.5 Gen planes. These planes with awesome TVC, are sitting ducks for the few second they go into recovery post stall or inverted loop or Cobra.

Total score was SU-30 5, EFT 5, 2 contested. If you give one contested to SU-30, the score goes to 6 in favor of the SU, 5 EFT and 1 contested. And this was using a basic combat simulator pod. No radars, EMJ or other combat systems running to keep confidentiality. So really, this means absolutely nothing. It was a blind shooting another blind!!

If you guys want to jump up and down and make stuff up, it actually makes you look bad!!

But there are sources which say that in ID 2015 MKIs performed well in WVR scenario and its not surprisng as Su-30MKI's aerodynamic configuration is a longitudinal triplane with relaxed stability. The canards (aeronautics) on plane increase the aircraft lift (force) ability and deflects automatically to allow highangle of attack (AoA) flights allowing it to perform Pugachev's Cobra. In addition, the integral aerodynamic configuration combined withthrust vectoring results in extremely capable manoeuvrability, taking off and landing characteristics. .

Are you a pilot in the IAF? If not, bring one and ask him, how long does it take for an SU-30 after pulling a Cobra, Inverted loop or split through TVC to go back to 80% of its standard throttle? Any plane that fired a WVR missile at you, and then allowed you to dodge it through TVC use, had you on Guns for about 8-10 seconds easy at slow speeds. Meaning bleeding energy an recovering, can't manuver fast and escape the guns. The EFT did just that after losing the first two WVR battles and then they had the SU's for the remainder of the 2 battles in WVR.

How about really ask professionals or explain to others if you have the experience, vs. making stuff up and then wasting pages to support a made up story??? I don't understand the need to make things up when both, the SU-30 and the EFT had wins and pretty equal (Without using either one's electronic package, which is what matters the most. So these results are meaningless).

You guys are making the IAF look bad and unprofessional. Every single air-force professional or reader knowing this, would wonder why the need to make stuff up???

 

[NKVD]

Oh people like you will never change!!! You debated with me and wrote me a lengthy article on the first thread on this topic. Couldn't give me ONE valid reason as to WHERE were the facts and why IAF made up the story???? I ever provided you with the actual count. But it didn't help.

Here you are again. What are the facts you are referring to and where are those? If the facts are fake Indian pride in people's head.....well that's not a fact. This is where a real conversation goes south so bad that one loses it!!!! How about we remain factual?

@MilSpec : when you get personal with me on posts, these are the reasons majority of the times I'd get India-negative. Read the above post. These are silly statements without a base that annoy everyone (specially someone actually knows a thing about an event in discussion). I just wanted you to see it. It would be VERY nice if everyone just remained factual and life moves on without getting into a verbal battle to prove a wrong to right!

Still Doesn't

For example, it won multiple battles initially with the EFT due to its instantaneous thrust and TVC. But the second they learned the aerodynamics and its speed and maneuvering; they took it down in remainder of the dog fights, ending in 2-2. Kill shot technique works very well against the SU-30 or for majority of the 4-4.5 Gen planes. These planes with awesome TVC, are sitting ducks for the few second they go into recovery post stall or inverted loop or Cobra.

Total score was SU-30 5, EFT 5, 2 contested. If you give one contested to SU-30, the score goes to 6 in favor of the SU, 5 EFT and 1 contested. And this was using a basic combat simulator pod. No radars, EMJ or other combat systems running to keep confidentiality. So really, this means absolutely nothing. It was a blind shooting another blind!!

If you guys want to jump up and down and make stuff up, it actually makes you look bad!!

Provide source of your claims.Kindly Provide Links if you want to take debate further

 

[Indian Patriot]

The statement comes a day after the UK officially raised the matter with a senior diplomat bringing it to the notice of his counterpart in Delhi,

So? There is something called protocol which needs to be followed. If there is a breach in protocol it will be raised as is the international norm. Even India raised a similar issue with the USA when the senior USAF officials mocked IAF's lack of war-time preparedness in front of US media.

A nuanced release on the exercise says 'there are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability'.

Which is a fact. How can a 12-0 claim be established if no weapons were fired as per actual capability?

What many of you ever-eager keyboard patriots are failing to understand is that such exercises are never meant to determine which is the better air force.

What this means is that RAF and Eurofighter consortium were embarrased

Get real. Nobody outside of India is ever going to believe that the IAF is better than the RAF. Patriotism is one thing, stupidity is another.

and they went crying to UK Government who took up the matter DIPLOMATICALLY
with their counter parts in New Delhi

Hence the new nuanced release

So according to you IAF is the best and all other air-forces in this world are secondary. And any body who tries to show the reality to you is wrong.

Appreciate your thought process.

Well, there was no need to start this thread had jingoistic Bhartis had not gone berserk over that stupid off the cuff remark. I mean 12:0, is this even logical? The Brits were flying WWII spitfires or what? .

Don't use the remark "Bharti". Every Indian in PDF is not some brain dead dodo who believes hype over reality. There are sane Indians present as well.

And Spitfires were designed for dog fights, so RAF would have won. The whole 12-0 thing is a media hype and nothing else.

 

[Windjammer]

The winds may get jammed.

Why do you keep repeating same lines in every thread, i mean what's your affiliation with these terms, you may have grown up with this sound ringing in your ear or it may be an abnormality that you suffer from, in either case, no need to discuss your personal affairs on an open forum, otherwise i have an ideal new username to represent your obsession.

@ Topic..... more IAF claims coming to light and getting busted.


According to a report in The Independent, the British pilots were in dismay as their Indian counterparts had taken the unusual step of publicly claiming to have come away with a resounding victory.

“There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form,” the report goes on to quote a source as saying.

The Indian Express was also quick to pick this story up, and added that if the exercise indeed showed that the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is superior to the Typhoon, which in turn ranks above the Rafale fighter, why is India buying 36 Rafale fighters?

However, another report added that this isn’t the first time the Indian Air Force publicly claimed a debated victory. Indian Su-30's claimed to have achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets during Cope India in 2004.

However, the kill ratio was proved right at the time but it was also explained that the F-15s were defeated because they were called to fight the Su-30s in scenarios that involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with extra handicaps.

In the recent incident too, the RAF source claimed that the Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs” as they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.

 

[Indian Patriot]

And TRUST me, the results were FAR from 12-0!!!!

What people keep forgetting time and again is that these results mean NOTHING in real war situations. And it is funny in a sad way to see even so-called "think tanks" forgetting this basic concepts and believing media hype.

This is usually true, however in this case the UK has taken this to a diplomatic level which is both unusual and intriguing.

No it is not.

An exercise between two foreign militaries is not done on a whim. It takes months, maybe years (if it is multi-national), of planning and there are many parameters and protocols which are to be followed. There are strict rules which are to be observed by all participating sides on and off the field.

If there is a breach in protocol, no matter how "small", then the issue will be raised at the highest level. It is more to do with protocol then UK being embarrassed about some "12-0" score.

 

[MilSpec]

@MilSpec : when you get personal with me on posts, these are the reasons majority of the times I'd get India-negative. Read the above post. These are silly statements without a base that annoy everyone (specially someone actually knows a thing about an event in discussion). I just wanted you to see it. It would be VERY nice if everyone just remained factual and life moves on without getting into a verbal battle to prove a wrong to right!

Read the official statement of IAF there is no backing off anything.

For your comments I asked for references that you shied out off.

I don't attach a lot of weight to what people say on the forum, barring a few, and they know who they are.

as far as the rest of it, we both know how many projections, conversations and claims that you post here are purely imaginary, be it quality of composites, weld seams on airframes, economic projections, quality of aeronautical subsytems, ACM training results.... - all posted without any fact/logic checks and references....

So when you talk about being factual, I say put your money where your mouth is.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Well tell you most important thing
From a blog this statement sums up the view best:
" The IAF might not have made a statement of 'We is best' but many news papers closely linked to the Indian government have done so. The RAF has to respond in some way, especially considering the perilous situation of its funding and future support and acquisitions with the SDSR coming up later this year. It's completely blown up beyond proportion and it makes sense for the RAF, having been effectively accused of the media of being utterly useless, to make a reasonable response."

So there you have it ,,, now why would pro government newspaper make claims which may be at times beyond scope of comprehension and leads to lots of heartburn
Simple for news media catchy and idiotic headlines gets more web hits and more revenue earned via that..

What abt the government?
Officially its IAF statement which says it all.. no scorelines.. no result talks.. all diplomatic language.

Off the record, i feel this if its a Government of India, a la Doval type strategy then you can expect two scenarios
Scenario 1:
Accept Su30 MKI is good enough and you see them as the dominant bird in IAF.. Expect more new birds either directly from Russia or new orders beyond 272 and keeping line open beyond 2021
Scenario 2:
Say and accept with honesty the "weakness" of MKI in BVR combat and also when you end up doing high bleeding enegry maneuvers,,.. This opens up the door for making informed opinions among the domestic massess and makes up new pressure on MOD/GOI to effectively look at options to working out this "weakness". In simple words, it opens up the path for Say Rafales/PAKFA procurement irrespective of cost/delays..

If i remember correctly in Cope 2004, truly India scored 9:1 kills when it engaged with larger number of MKis vs F15s.. on record, US accepted that.. But most folks should also remember that that was the time for budget discussion for F22.. So this "underhanded" tactic/strategy enabled the budget approval for F22 program in a big way.. Thus a history can be repeated.. RAF needs to retire its Tornados too and typhoons are costly for them due to budgetary as well as manpower training constraints. India on other hand needs the domestic masses to come to terms of true cost of modern jets which are costly and the need is strategic in nature..

For others who are just laughing bashing and enjoying on silliness... you folks just played into he hands of this strategy.. it was much smarter to say MKI is better and face MKIs in case of an engagement rather than face MKI/PAKFA/Rafales.. after all its ur own assertiveness questioning the efficacy of results along with this online debate on indradhanush 2015 which will become the stepping stone for procurement which were stalled over costs and public perceptions. BTW its not just PDF but many many forums across globe debating on this... (Some blogs clearly suggest its a repeat pf Cope 2004 underhanded tactic for getting procurement approval)

think a bit calmly.. not any rheortic.. you will see clearly whats really going on..

@Abingdonboy : I know my friend you have taken lots of stick and personalised attacks on this topic.. but no worries mate.. keep up the good work.. Soon a day will come when views truly supporting what u said will emerge.. perhaps when a Doval like person opens up and says about this strategy in a packed auditorium 10 years later

 

[MilSpec]

What people keep forgetting time and again is that these results mean NOTHING in real war situations. And it is funny in a sad way to see even so-called "think tanks" forgetting this basic concepts and believing media hype.
.

No one here has claimed that combat training with pre determined engagement constraints have any bearing on real combat... The results are only and only tangible for the engagement scenario as designed for the exercise. in those constraints if a platform outperforms the other, it is not reflective of the superiority of the platform or combat tactics as a whole... It only reflects what it is in the given constrained rules of engagement.

Ina BVR theater with Meteor sim, EFT could have scored 30:0 against MKI ... that doesn't mean that is reflective of real combat scenario.

In a BVR theater MKI guiding LOAF on r77 rvv ae from a mig 21 could defeat f15, but that has no bearing in real combat unless the same oppurtunity presents itself.... Thus - the term exercise...

However, another report added that this isn’t the first time the Indian Air Force publicly claimed a debated victory. Indian Su-30's claimed to have achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets during Cope India in 2004.

However, the kill ratio was proved right at the time but it was also explained that the F-15s were defeated because they were called to fight the Su-30s in scenarios that involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with extra handicaps..

And thus it is deemed as an exercise....

it means to simulate hostile environments so you can hone your acm for such threat scenarios... but I doubt you will be able to understand that...

It's only PAF that makes minced meat out of rafales, eft's in exercises... where are the mention of your constraints then... no busting happens then, does it?

 

[Arsalan]

And again,, we come around a full circle and nothing have changed. It is the same arrogant self-assertion that have brought shame to the organization and its fan boys, only if they feel so!

It have been about a millionth time that false claims have been debunked and be a cause of embarrassment but still the propaganda machinery works at large still creating baseless rumors and spreading them only to eat ones word a some later point.

Thing is, only who can feel the shame will understand it,,,,

 

[MilSpec]

And again,, we come around a full circle and nothing have changed. It is the same arrogant self-assertion that have brought shame to the organization and its fan boys, only if they feel so!

It have been about a millionth time that false claims have been debunked and be a cause of embarrassment but still the propaganda machinery works at large still creating baseless rumors and spreading them only to eat ones word a some later point.

Thing is, only who can feel the shame will understand it,,,,

What rumors?I have stated the exact same interpretation of exercises and results, be it gwalior, redflag, indradhanus 12, and this one?

2014

Author of the article has got it wrong on all counts and probably should try his hand towards screen play writing instead instead of writing on actual combat after a late night topgun and diet of Cheetos and redbull........

Indian Air Force did not re-write any rules of air combat.....

results of joint exercises has no whatsoever significance in real combat....

Joint combat exercises and drills are to study certain engagement situation... their results are only valid in those constrained situations.

The main objective is to study calibrated approach tactics of participants in the given engagement scenario....

In an exercise, based on engagement constraints, a Bison can best f15's or f16's... in real combat in those exact constraints those results might have validity, but without any constraints F16's or f15's will make mince meat out of those bisons, same applies to f16 vs EFT's/ Rafales, F16's vs MKI, f16 vs Mig29 and alike.

 

[Arsalan]

What rumors?I have stated the exact same interpretation of exercises and results, be it gwalior, redflag, indradhanus 12, and this one?

What Rumors?

How about the claims of coming out a 12-0 victory in the exercise and mock combats, the media making it up, the people endorsing it and getting a half dozen threads about it, then claims coming from UK debunking this rumor and now this, a new theory that there were no wins or losses at all. If that was the case, what were they saying before?

Look dear, i know it is an embarrassing situation and you will do anything to get your country out of it, i would have done the same, but the fact is that the media and the chest thumping public and officials make the whole thing look bad for you. That is why it is always recommended to keep a check on what one say!

 

[MilSpec]

What Rumors?

How about the claims of coming out a 12-0 victory in the exercise and mock combats, the media making it up, the people endorsing it and getting a half dozen threads about it, then claims coming from UK debunking this rumor and now this, a new theory that there were no wins or losses at all. If that was the case, what were they saying before?

Look dear, i know it is an embarrassing situation and you will do anything to get your country out of it, i would have done the same, but the fact is that the media and the chest thumping public and officials make the whole thing look bad for you. That is why it is always recommended to keep a check on what one say!

Wait now...

The US pilot's speech was considered gospel of truth during redflag, although debunked by IAF at that time... back then it wasn't embarrsament for USAF, but now that same thing is with IAF on the other end, its an embarassing situation.

Personally I don't even know what the pilit said, but if he did say 12:0, then I will take that number, unless RAF gives an alternate number. IAF's official statement is nothing but realistic, because 12:0 or 30:0 wouldn't really mean a damn thing in the real world.

As far as I am concerned, I am not defending anything, my stance on exercises has always been consistent...

Author of the article has got it wrong on all counts and probably should try his hand towards screen play writing instead instead of writing on actual combat after a late night topgun and diet of Cheetos and redbull........

Indian Air Force did not re-write any rules of air combat.....

results of joint exercises has no whatsoever significance in real combat....

Joint combat exercises and drills are to study certain engagement situation... their results are only valid in those constrained situations.

The main objective is to study calibrated approach tactics of participants in the given engagement scenario....

In an exercise, based on engagement constraints, a Bison can best f15's or f16's... in real combat in those exact constraints those results might have validity, but without any constraints F16's or f15's will make mince meat out of those bisons, same applies to f16 vs EFT's/ Rafales, F16's vs MKI, f16 vs Mig29 and alike.

Scoring a kill in exercises shouldn't be exaggerated, F6 kills on F14, F7 on f16, Bisons on F15, F15 on f22's, are possible in mock combats, with pre-defined engagement rules. In real combat the later aircrafts will eat the weaker ones all day long..... Gone are the days of sabre slayers...

Not end of story but just end of logic at your end.
Outcomes of exercises are based on Rules of engagement, but you already knew that. IAF mig21's creamed USAF F15's during Cope India, which in no way implies mig21 is superior to F15C's.

But you want to peddle the notion that mighty f16's can cream everything flying, it just reeks of desperation...

As far as knowing opponents aircrafts are concerned. IAF tested the F16IN (Equivalent to Blk 60 during MMRCA trials) along with F16D Blk52 and F16C's of RSAF on regular intervals...

 

[Arsalan]

Wait now...

The US pilot's speech was considered gospel of truth during redflag, although debunked by IAF at that time... back then it wasn't embarrassment for USAF, but now that same thing is with IAF on the other end, its an embarrassing situation

WHO say this? it should have been embarrassing for them as well, i do not remember the incident but if it was a similar case, like US claimed outrageous success against IAF, IAF challenges it, and USAF comes out with a statement like "ok lets forget it, there were no winners or losers in the mock exercises" or "larai larai maaf kro" type of thing then is must and it should have been equally embarrassing for them.

However, it as i said before it will be embarrassing for those only who do feel some shame.

Personally I don't even know what the pilit said, but if he did say 12:0, then I will take that number, unless RAF gives an alternate number. IAF's official statement is nothing but realistic, because 12:0 or 30:0 wouldn't really mean a damn thing in the real world..

Well it is unfortunate that the thread have been deleted now that was filled with the rejoicing celebration about the 12-0 victory claims as it was confirmed as false by the Indian media/authorities or else you could have looked there to see what was said.
As for RAF, there is no need to trust what they say man, here:
Defence News - Air Force backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'; says no wins and losses

You do have a trust worthy in-house source to go by.

 

[Windjammer]

And thus it is deemed as an exercise....

it means to simulate hostile environments so you can hone your acm for such threat scenarios... but I doubt you will be able to understand that...

It's only PAF that makes minced meat out of rafales, eft's in exercises... where are the mention of your constraints then... no busting happens then, does it?

Put your fancy wordings to some good use, in fact give them a rest and prove your claims where a PAF pilot has gone on national TV to discuss a training exercise or where PAF has disclosed anything of the kind, they seldom disclose the type of equipment involved let alone the outcome, the few results revealed were disclosed by a third party with minimal revelation....but obviously covering your own blunders, you would have missed all this.

 

[Manas]

Results of various exercises IAF participated over the last decade .


1. Garuda1 vs FAF(French Air Force ): We "won" in WVR, lost in BVR. French advantage, better radars, better missiles simulated & better tactics (they called Fox faster repeatedly in BVR). IAF learnt. Note, it was Mirage vs Mirage

2. CopeIndia 1 vs USAF in 2004: IAF won, with a 9:1 ratio. Key points: IAF flexibility, greater numbers skill, use of active missiles simulated, inability of USAF to anticipate high skill levels & tactics plus airframes they were facing (which is where greater numbers counted, USAF wanted those numbers because the F-15s train to a lower tech threat in greater numbers). Afterwards, USAF went and changed their concept of Red Air to "all up fighters training with all tactics", mirroring the IAFs concept. Key takeaway "IAF doesn't do red air, they send their best guys up doing all they can to win against the trainees", paraphrased.

3. Cope India 2 w/USAF: Intermixed packages of F-16s with Su-30Ks, Bisons and MiG-27s, possibly MiG-29s (going by memory) with USAF AWACs. Bison hard to track on radar (low RCS w/small size, bodes well for LCA as it has both attributes) and IAF fighters responded faster to AWAC calls despite no datalinking
USAF quote on a website : we trained against the IAF MiG-29s, they lost one, we lost one, this was scary, we weren't used to this. Possibly quote from Cope1
USAF pilots on net: Praise for IAF professionalism and high flight hours and tactics. "Their senior guy flew the Su-30s backseat as a mission commander"..

4. RSAF vs Su30MKIs, Mirages and Bisons. Su-30MKIs do very well against F-16s, Bisons about average and Mirages are at parity. IAF concerned about former & looking at tactics, tech (since RSAF F-16s are better than those in Cope2 where Bisons did well) and Mirage upgrade needs to be progressed.

5. Indradhanush-1 vs RAF: Su-30MKIs vs Tornado ADVs, ADVs leverage AWACs and do stage ambushes (RAF/ADV combination is very experienced) but overall Su-30MKIs come out on tops. The key thing, IAF's first reported use of "radar with only some modes" which still held up well.

6. Red Flag: IAF tops in WVR in Mountain Home, does very well in Red Flag (gets called to the podium for a special appreciation) in BVR, LFE, A2G. Uses Litening, has restrictions on chaff/flare, datalink employment and uses radar in training mode, range reduction and mode limitation. Former causes higher attrition figures but overall everything holds up well, especially radar in jamming.

7.Garuda-2: IAF vs French AF Mirage 2000s and Rafales. Points to note from press comments, Su-30 agility and radar/weapons performance called out for long range. Radar in training mode, no EW from Indian side (no pods shown). French state their Rafales are more discreet, Su-30 has to be handled in the initial merge otherwise its performance will "tell" against their Mirages etc.

8.SAF deployment: Mirage deployment - notable as was Red Flag for a huge long distance deployment. Very good learning for IAF apart from the minor mishap when a Mirage prangs on the runway (subsequently repaired)

9.Indradhanush2: Not really that useful as RAF deployment of ELINT aircraft makes IAF wary and not use radars. TVC not used in WVR. Mostly joint ops familiarization and long distance deployment.

10.Indradhanush-3 in 2011: RAF with Typhoons. RAF claims victory via publicized leaks and then media reports. Point to note: This is while MMRCA negotiations are ongoing. Possibly PR tactics.

11.Indradhanush-4 in 2015: RAF with Typhoons. Su-30s dominate in WVR & do well/equivalent in BVR. IAF confirmation that an upgrade package is also in the works for Su-30MKI.