IAF backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'

[IND151]

No Lies,IAF Maintained Its Line which it was Taken since day One, Are RAF rebutting it them-selfs Please Quote Me one RAF Authenticated Source who are Rebutting IAF claim other than Media Anonymous Sources

In Last Exercise 2011 RAF Air chief was Bragging "Well they Lost" This time there Silence Say it All,Eventually this time the gone Step beyond Raising Small issue At highest Diplomatic Level.Pressuring IAF Issue Press statement to cool-down things But Still they are Maintained there Claim And Altered Article Titles won't Hide Facts.

Perhaps you are right.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

 

[IND151]

Well tell you most important thing
From a blog this statement sums up the view best:
" The IAF might not have made a statement of 'We is best' but many news papers closely linked to the Indian government have done so. The RAF has to respond in some way, especially considering the perilous situation of its funding and future support and acquisitions with the SDSR coming up later this year. It's completely blown up beyond proportion and it makes sense for the RAF, having been effectively accused of the media of being utterly useless, to make a reasonable response."

So there you have it ,,, now why would pro government newspaper make claims which may be at times beyond scope of comprehension and leads to lots of heartburn
Simple for news media catchy and idiotic headlines gets more web hits and more revenue earned via that..

What abt the government?
Officially its IAF statement which says it all.. no scorelines.. no result talks.. all diplomatic language.

Off the record, i feel this if its a Government of India, a la Doval type strategy then you can expect two scenarios
Scenario 1:
Accept Su30 MKI is good enough and you see them as the dominant bird in IAF.. Expect more new birds either directly from Russia or new orders beyond 272 and keeping line open beyond 2021
Scenario 2:
Say and accept with honesty the "weakness" of MKI in BVR combat and also when you end up doing high bleeding enegry maneuvers,,.. This opens up the door for making informed opinions among the domestic massess and makes up new pressure on MOD/GOI to effectively look at options to working out this "weakness". In simple words, it opens up the path for Say Rafales/PAKFA procurement irrespective of cost/delays..

If i remember correctly in Cope 2004, truly India scored 9:1 kills when it engaged with larger number of MKis vs F15s.. on record, US accepted that.. But most folks should also remember that that was the time for budget discussion for F22.. So this "underhanded" tactic/strategy enabled the budget approval for F22 program in a big way.. Thus a history can be repeated.. RAF needs to retire its Tornados too and typhoons are costly for them due to budgetary as well as manpower training constraints. India on other hand needs the domestic masses to come to terms of true cost of modern jets which are costly and the need is strategic in nature..

For others who are just laughing bashing and enjoying on silliness... you folks just played into he hands of this strategy.. it was much smarter to say MKI is better and face MKIs in case of an engagement rather than face MKI/PAKFA/Rafales.. after all its ur own assertiveness questioning the efficacy of results along with this online debate on indradhanush 2015 which will become the stepping stone for procurement which were stalled over costs and public perceptions. BTW its not just PDF but many many forums across globe debating on this... (Some blogs clearly suggest its a repeat pf Cope 2004 underhanded tactic for getting procurement approval)

think a bit calmly.. not any rheortic.. you will see clearly whats really going on..

@Abingdonboy : I know my friend you have taken lots of stick and personalised attacks on this topic.. but no worries mate.. keep up the good work.. Soon a day will come when views truly supporting what u said will emerge.. perhaps when a Doval like person opens up and says about this strategy in a packed auditorium 10 years later

Nice explanation

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

A stray dog sits between guns and gloves belonging to Indian Air Force soldiers during a break for the Republic Day parade's rehearsal.

 

[Indian Patriot]

No one here has claimed that combat training with pre determined engagement constraints have any bearing on real combat... The results are only and only tangible for the engagement scenario as designed for the exercise. in those constraints if a platform outperforms the other, it is not reflective of the superiority of the platform or combat tactics as a whole... It only reflects what it is in the given constrained rules of engagement.

Ina BVR theater with Meteor sim, EFT could have scored 30:0 against MKI ... that doesn't mean that is reflective of real combat scenario.

In a BVR theater MKI guiding LOAF on r77 rvv ae from a mig 21 could defeat f15, but that has no bearing in real combat unless the same oppurtunity presents itself.... Thus - the term exercise...

So why are you so excited about the 12-0 scoreline. You get over excited over a silly media article and at the end you don't know how to cover your embarrassment.

Personally I don't even know what the pilit said, but if he did say 12:0, then I will take that number, unless RAF gives an alternate number. IAF's official statement is nothing but realistic, because 12:0 or 30:0 wouldn't really mean a damn thing in the real world.

If a CIVILIAN like you is aware of this fact don't you think the professionals in RAF would be aware of the same? Now then don't you think the RAF, UK Govt. was protesting more because of a possible breach of protocol rather than some fancy score board?

Some trolls here are mouthing the line that RAF is shocked and embarrassed by the score board which you have quoted does not "really mean a damn thing in the real world" and thus want IAF to back down. Now as an educated person yourself, I assume that since you are Think Tank, shouldn't you be dismissing the delusions of the trolls who are not aware of what these exercises really mean?

Or are you worried they will call you a false flag as well?

 

[Manas]

Results of various exercises IAF participated over the last decade .

1. Garuda1 vs FAF(French Air Force ): We "won" in WVR, lost in BVR. French advantage, better radars, better missiles simulated & better tactics (they called Fox faster repeatedly in BVR). IAF learnt. Note, it was Mirage vs Mirage

2. CopeIndia 1 vs USAF in 2004: IAF won, with a 9:1 ratio. Key points: IAF flexibility, greater numbers skill, use of active missiles simulated, inability of USAF to anticipate high skill levels & tactics plus airframes they were facing (which is where greater numbers counted, USAF wanted those numbers because the F-15s train to a lower tech threat in greater numbers). Afterwards, USAF went and changed their concept of Red Air to "all up fighters training with all tactics", mirroring the IAFs concept. Key takeaway "IAF doesn't do red air, they send their best guys up doing all they can to win against the trainees", paraphrased.

3. Cope India 2 w/USAF: Intermixed packages of F-16s with Su-30Ks, Bisons and MiG-27s, possibly MiG-29s (going by memory) with USAF AWACs. Bison hard to track on radar (low RCS w/small size, bodes well for LCA as it has both attributes) and IAF fighters responded faster to AWAC calls despite no datalinking
USAF quote on a website : we trained against the IAF MiG-29s, they lost one, we lost one, this was scary, we weren't used to this. Possibly quote from Cope1
USAF pilots on net: Praise for IAF professionalism and high flight hours and tactics. "Their senior guy flew the Su-30s backseat as a mission commander"..

4. RSAF (Singapore) vs Su30MKIs, Mirages and Bisons. Su-30MKIs do very well against F-16s, Bisons about average and Mirages are at parity. IAF concerned about former & looking at tactics, tech (since RSAF F-16s are better than those in Cope2 where Bisons did well) and Mirage upgrade needs to be progressed.

5. Indradhanush-1 vs RAF: Su-30MKIs vs Tornado ADVs, ADVs leverage AWACs and do stage ambushes (RAF/ADV combination is very experienced) but overall Su-30MKIs come out on tops. The key thing, IAF's first reported use of "radar with only some modes" which still held up well.

6. Red Flag: IAF tops in WVR in Mountain Home, does very well in Red Flag (gets called to the podium for a special appreciation) in BVR, LFE, A2G. Uses Litening, has restrictions on chaff/flare, datalink employment and uses radar in training mode, range reduction and mode limitation. Former causes higher attrition figures but overall everything holds up well, especially radar in jamming.

7.Garuda-2: IAF vs French AF Mirage 2000s and Rafales. Points to note from press comments, Su-30 agility and radar/weapons performance called out for long range. Radar in training mode, no EW from Indian side (no pods shown). French state their Rafales are more discreet, Su-30 has to be handled in the initial merge otherwise its performance will "tell" against their Mirages etc.

8.SAF deployment: Mirage deployment - notable as was Red Flag for a huge long distance deployment. Very good learning for IAF apart from the minor mishap when a Mirage prangs on the runway (subsequently repaired)

9.Indradhanush2: Not really that useful as RAF deployment of ELINT aircraft makes IAF wary and not use radars. TVC not used in WVR. Mostly joint ops familiarization and long distance deployment.

10.Indradhanush-3 in 2011: RAF with Typhoons. RAF claims victory via publicized leaks and then media reports. Point to note: This is while MMRCA negotiations are ongoing. Possibly PR tactics.

11.Indradhanush-4 in 2015: RAF with Typhoons. Su-30s dominate in WVR & do well/equivalent in BVR. IAF confirmation that an upgrade package is also in the works for Su-30MKI.

 

[MilSpec]

So why are you so excited about the 12-0 scoreline. You get over excited over a silly media article and at the end you don't know how to cover your embarrassment.



If a CIVILIAN like you is aware of this fact don't you think the professionals in RAF would be aware of the same? Now then don't you think the RAF, UK Govt. was protesting more because of a possible breach of protocol rather than some fancy score board?

Some trolls here are mouthing the line that RAF is shocked and embarrassed by the score board which you have quoted does not "really mean a damn thing in the real world" and thus want IAF to back down. Now as an educated person yourself, I assume that since you are Think Tank, shouldn't you be dismissing the delusions of the trolls who are not aware of what these exercises really mean?

Or are you worried they will call you a false flag as well?

Dude,
read again what I have posted, your lack of comprehension skills is least of my issues.

 

[Thorough Pro]

LOL if facts were facts, why withdraw earlier statements?

What a Big RELIEF for our " FRIENDS " in Pakistan

Some statements HAD to be made DIPLOMATICALLY given the
Heartburn they were causing to UK Government and RAF and Eurofighter Consortium

But Facts are Facts

No surprise! this was expected now that the whole indian nation has had orgasm, they can "withdraw" their statements.

The Air Force has backed down on claims over an absolute 'win' during a recent Indo-UK exercise with an official statement arguing that there are no 'wins and losses' during such war games.

NEW DELHI: The Air Force has backed down on claims over an absolute 'win' during a recent Indo-UK exercise with an official statement arguing that there are no 'wins and losses' during such war games. A detailed statement has come from the Air Force on exercise 'Indradhanush' that was held in the UK in July, days after reports surfaced quoting IAF officials that the Indian side had a whitewash victory.

The statement comes a day after the UK officially raised the matter with a senior diplomat bringing it to the notice of his counterpart in Delhi, as was first reported by ET. A nuanced release on the exercise says 'there are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability'.

The Royal Air Force (RAF) has been peeved by Indian reports that IAF Su 30 MKIs had a 12-0 victory over their Typhoons during the exercise. The reports partly quoted the delegation leader of the IAF for the exercise but the victory claims were attributed to unnamed officials.

Official of the RAF have commented strongly on the reports, saying that they were not based on facts and the actual result of the exercise. However, after the official protest by the UK in New Delhi, the IAF statement seeks to correct the image around the exercise, toning down the rhetoric.

"Such exercises are conducted under controlled conditions with mutually agreed weapons performance parameters, with the basic aim of learning from each other's best practices. Additional advantages that accrue are greater understanding of each other's general operational philosophy and exposure to a different operating environment," the release says.
Defence News - Air Force backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'; says no wins and losses

So all the chest thumping on 12-0 victory just turned out to be the cricket score.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

LOL if facts were facts, why withdraw earlier statements?

Because ONE should NOT Insult your Friends

We want to do more exercises with Eurofighter in Future

Eurofighter is a new and EVOLVING Platform

It will get better

The British will also develop new tactics and we can benefit from them

 

[Indian Patriot]

The douche bag @MilSpec hands out negative ratings when he gets his a$$ handed back to him for being a douche bag. Why am I not surprised?

Because ONE should NOT Insult your Friends

Because one should not break protocol.

 

[MilSpec]

The douche bag @MilSpec hands out negative ratings when he gets his a$$ handed back to him for being a douche bag. Why am I not surprised?



Because one should not break protocol.

bcos u r an idiot. Follow the forum regulations and there will be no ratings.

 

[Indian Patriot]

The douche bag is on a roll. Hey douche, is this the only way you feel good about yourself. By handing out negative ratings when you get trounced in a debate? Or are you feeling the heat at being ignored and are desperate for some atention?

 

[IncredibleIndia]

For those who cant understand hindi....
There are 70 crores men in india and they average spend 52 rs for shaving and haircutting each month..which equals 42000 crore rupees a year.....
Now the funny thing related to that is pakistan's total defence budget is 41000 crores a year....:-D

 

[IncredibleIndia]

Ladies beauty parlour cost is still not included...;-)

 

[Asian.Century]

And From which Word from you taken that.Ohh It was Pre-judged Line you waiting to say

LoL. So now u r accusing me, that these whitewash 12-0 kill scores by Indians over Britians is a pre-judged line and madeup by Pakistanis...but somehow...Indian the superpower as usual slaves of west...being 'Officially' asked to back down on them ...Which clearly and loudly - Indian Media claimed & IAF Group Captain said was an exceptional success