I Almost Forgot About It---BVR Combat---No Need For The Machine Gun:---

[BHarwana]

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

The very first air to air battle of the modern and capable fighter aircraft of similar capability resulted in a BVR missile fight---resulted in enemy's aircraft casualty and supposedly had a very high kill ratio---.

Do you people remember those fools on high position on this forum who would jump back to the vietnam war era air to air combat and the failure of the air to air missiles---these morons and goofballs were think tank members and think tank chairperson---and they were full of sarcasm and insults---hey you---look who is the fool now---.

You fools---I told you then---the technology has expanded over a million times from the vietnam era---the old computer that would fill a house is being captured in the palm of the hand today and has a million times more processing power---and yet you guys kept on harping your intellect out of sheer stupidity---.

It amazed and surprised me when I tried to explain---look guys---nations are fielding these million dollar + bvr missiles---they have so much investment behind these missiles---it is technically not possible for these missiles to fail---but the error was on my part that I was trying to teach water buffaloes and bulls the intricacies and fine points of classical music---.

I then stated something else as well---the machine gun would be an obsolete item for a modern fighter aircraft---and the same group of people talked about the same vietnam era bullsh-it---the Phantom episode---.

Today I shut them off as well---.

Today's modern warfare between similar modern aircraft would not leave time for the fighter pilot to look for where his guns are pointed at---neither would he have the time to get closer and lock the target to the gun sight and let go of a burst---.

So---in this very first air to air combat---you people will acknowledge the ferocity of the BVR combat---you people will acknowledge the lethality of the BVR combat---and once you acknowledge the gains due to BVR combat---you will do your very best to stay out of any other combat that would get you in any closer position to the enemy---.

The machine gun / canon can be replaced with an extra modular fuel tank---or any other EW device helpfull to the aircraft etc etc etc---.

Your analysis on BVR is good but you forgot this is limited engagement. In full out war gun play an important role. If a jet get too close you BVR becomes useless.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar No one is willing to speak as air ops are still in continuation. Very sketchy info.

1-It is looking as more damages havr been inflicted in air or ground than being reported by ISPR, >6 incld EWS platforms , surface to air in different places along LoC.
2-Immediately after Three bogies enter an air quarantine zone. Two or possibly three BVR engagements at this point with one kill probably a long range fighter bomber!! >2 multi roles participated in killing on our side of LoC.
3- Seconds later, another engagement, a WVR/maybe BVR!!, another kill perhaps mig. One multirole involved.

Too soon to tell and our adversary has a history of hiding air combat losses for years on end. Hopefully more principled air authors on our end will clear the air since folks with some moral and ethical valued like ACdre Tufail do it on our side.

My concern is that the enemy reached out to SME’s including LM right after this and started conversations on how to negate our assets especially the F-16s since they trashed their original plans after that strike.

The next engagement may not be favorable at all.

4/4+ generation incld flankers have doable capacity to evade bvr, if picked up in time. Su was shot down as it 'failed to recognize' threat in time. In a major war scenario, situation can be entirely different.

Situational awareness will trump any technology anytime.

The Indians were lacking SA, and as we both have stated in different places- heads need to(and have) rolled on their end.

 

[Army research]

Kashmiris are also not angel. They are doing Jihad. Do you expect flowers in return?

We will continue to do so , rest assured we will fight the gangadeshis to the last

 

[messiach]

Agree here.

My concern is that the enemy reached out to SME’s including LM right after this and started conversations on how to negate our assets especially the F-16s since they trashed their original plans after that strike.
The next engagement may not be favorable at all.
.

 

[GumNaam]

^^^ famous last words of that vietnam era pilot who took on 6 mig21s in an f4 phantom without any machine gun!

 

[messiach]

I think Sw-FLIR mated to laser range finders failed onboard.

Situational awareness will trump any technology anytime.
The Indians were lacking SA, and as we both have stated in different places- heads need to(and have) rolled on their end.

 

[Ultima Thule]

View attachment 544530
^^^ famous last words of that vietnam era pilot who took on 6 mig21s in an f4 phantom without any machine gun!

Time is changing BVR is/will more reliable then gun, future wars will wholly based on BVR engagements, at vietnam war USA think BVR were reliable but they were not @GumNaam

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Mounted gatling guns on wing hardpoints or belly hardpoint is always an option for jf 17. If need ever arises. But yea MG fire at a target 10 km or 50 km away is just not practical.

 

[GumNaam]

Time is changing BVR is/will more reliable then gun, future wars will wholly based on BVR engagements, at vietnam war USA think BVR were reliable but they were not @GumNaam

can't discount the value of guns dude. usaf pilots actually argued and fought for having a gun on both the f22 and the f35.

 

[SQ8]

I think Sw-FLIR mated to laser range finders failed onboard.

I think their C4I net too sufferred some confusion.

To reiterate, the problem with surprises is that we let the cat out of the bag and now they are busy adapting and adjusting to what they learnt from us.

We may have thrown away some “trade secrets” to send a message but it was “damned if you do it, damned if you don’t “ situation.

 

[Ultima Thule]

can't discount the value of guns dude. usaf pilots actually argued and fought for having a gun on both the f22 and the f35.

Yes i am completely agree with you bro but in future there is is plan that F-35 will eliminates its gun and LASERS will put instead of a gun as well as upcoming 6th gen will have LASERS instead of a gun @GumNaam

 

[Vortex]

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

The very first air to air battle of the modern and capable fighter aircraft of similar capability resulted in a BVR missile fight---resulted in enemy's aircraft casualty and supposedly had a very high kill ratio---.

Do you people remember those fools on high position on this forum who would jump back to the vietnam war era air to air combat and the failure of the air to air missiles---these morons and goofballs were think tank members and think tank chairperson---and they were full of sarcasm and insults---hey you---look who is the fool now---.

You fools---I told you then---the technology has expanded over a million times from the vietnam era---the old computer that would fill a house is being captured in the palm of the hand today and has a million times more processing power---and yet you guys kept on harping your intellect out of sheer stupidity---.

It amazed and surprised me when I tried to explain---look guys---nations are fielding these million dollar + bvr missiles---they have so much investment behind these missiles---it is technically not possible for these missiles to fail---but the error was on my part that I was trying to teach water buffaloes and bulls the intricacies and fine points of classical music---.

I then stated something else as well---the machine gun would be an obsolete item for a modern fighter aircraft---and the same group of people talked about the same vietnam era bullsh-it---the Phantom episode---.

Today I shut them off as well---.

Today's modern warfare between similar modern aircraft would not leave time for the fighter pilot to look for where his guns are pointed at---neither would he have the time to get closer and lock the target to the gun sight and let go of a burst---.

So---in this very first air to air combat---you people will acknowledge the ferocity of the BVR combat---you people will acknowledge the lethality of the BVR combat---and once you acknowledge the gains due to BVR combat---you will do your very best to stay out of any other combat that would get you in any closer position to the enemy---.

The machine gun / canon can be replaced with an extra modular fuel tank---or any other EW device helpfull to the aircraft etc etc etc---.

I’m not an expert at all so what I will say could be ill placed.

Doesn’t the cannon and its munitions working like a placebo for the confidence of the pilot ?

As we know the very first armed planes were with machine guns/cannons so cannon could be intimately linked to the pilot psyche

I remember one day I was going to office and I forgot my mobile phone at home (Nokia 3310), and I felt like I was alone in the world even if it was very exceptional if I called 5 minutes in a month in that time.

So in my humble opinion it’s up to the pilots to say yes or no to remove the antic cannon. After they are the guys going in the fight, not us.

 

[MastanKhan]

Your analysis on BVR is good but you forgot this is limited engagement. In full out war gun play an important role. If a jet get too close you BVR becomes useless.

Hi,

You are dead by that time---.

BVR launch---WVR launch---and you are on bingo fuel heading to the base---.

You want to stay in the arena for a dog fight with the enemy---and another enemy aircraft for 30 miles away would launch a BVR at your aircraft and you would not even know what hit you---.

In todays combat---the dog fight is a senseless engagement---it even the odds of dying---and if the enemy is more in numbers---you are already dead before you even knew about it---.

The intensity of a dogfight is extremely severe---with your focus on the target---you have no clue to what is happening around you---you don't even hear of the warnings your system is giving you---.

 

[messiach]

I think their C4I net too sufferred some confusion.

I have a mature idea now - from AeSp pers.

No. They were blinded. "Mirage" managed escape. They need French help.

We may have thrown away some “trade secrets” to send a message.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

.

guilty as charged

I might have been one of them who always fantasizes the a gun based dog fight.
but I still listened to the missile only narrative.


I also recall an old video of an aviation expert who contended that a merge is inevitable to take place to cannons are must.
on the other side the counter narrative was carrying a cannon weight with a very rapidly depleting ammo for a very limited range which is better used to carry an extra missile

one day when energy weapons make their entry into the production then yea.. but maybe not in our lifetime or maybe when .. we wont even care