I Almost Forgot About It---BVR Combat---No Need For The Machine Gun:---

[HAIDER]

Sir with all due respect why do you think that the Americans with all the technology at their disposal have installed a Gatling gun on the F35????

Its basically, at some point obviously plane out of AA , then gun is the last choice of pilot. Till as of today in USAF pilots still get training of gun use. Using gun is art, because in every move trajectory of bullets changes. Your gun must dance with your target movement. Now guns are recommended for helis and UAVs.

 

[khansaheeb]

Sir with all due respect why do you think that the Americans with all the technology at their disposal have installed a Gatling gun on the F35????

After a few BVRs it's back to the gun.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

Due to pressure from the " illiterate " people---( congress )---otherwise---the cannon was deemed un-neccessary for both the F35 and F22

Can be used against ground targets..this defiency was noticed recently with f35 not having it
But some version it can be removed especially if it gives you another hard point

 

[messiach]

4/4+ generation incld flankers have doable capacity to evade bvr, if picked up in time. Su was shot down as it 'failed to recognize' threat in time. In a major war scenario, situation can be entirely different.

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

The very first air to air battle of the modern and capable fighter aircraft of similar capability resulted in a BVR missile fight---resulted in enemy's aircraft casualty and supposedly had a very high kill ratio---.

Do you people remember those fools on high position on this forum who would jump back to the vietnam war era air to air combat and the failure of the air to air missiles---these morons and goofballs were think tank members and think tank chairperson---and they were full of sarcasm and insults---hey you---look who is the fool now---.

You fools---I told you then---the technology has expanded over a million times from the vietnam era---the old computer that would fill a house is being captured in the palm of the hand today and has a million times more processing power---and yet you guys kept on harping your intellect out of sheer stupidity---.

It amazed and surprised me when I tried to explain---look guys---nations are fielding these million dollar + bvr missiles---they have so much investment behind these missiles---it is technically not possible for these missiles to fail---but the error was on my part that I was trying to teach water buffaloes and bulls the intricacies and fine points of classical music---.

I then stated something else as well---the machine gun would be an obsolete item for a modern fighter aircraft---and the same group of people talked about the same vietnam era bullsh-it---the Phantom episode---.

Today I shut them off as well---.

Today's modern warfare between similar modern aircraft would not leave time for the fighter pilot to look for where his guns are pointed at---neither would he have the time to get closer and lock the target to the gun sight and let go of a burst---.

So---in this very first air to air combat---you people will acknowledge the ferocity of the BVR combat---you people will acknowledge the lethality of the BVR combat---and once you acknowledge the gains due to BVR combat---you will do your very best to stay out of any other combat that would get you in any closer position to the enemy---.

The machine gun / canon can be replaced with an extra modular fuel tank---or any other EW device helpfull to the aircraft etc etc etc---.

 

[CriticalThought]

JF-17 kill was likely WVR; that doesn’t discount BVR effectiveness but that employment tactics and windows aren’t always available.

In this case it’s possible a visual ID could have been necessary or friendly flights to be clear of engagement zone before taking down the Mig.

The pilot said in his last interview that he was looking for targets when he was shot down. Except if Thunder managed to get on his six with him being completely clueless, I'd say its more likely a BVR kill.

 

[FuturePAF]

The pilot said in his last interview that he was looking for targets when he was shot down. Except if Thunder managed to get on his six with him being completely clueless, I'd say its more likely a BVR kill.

There are other techniques to minimize detection (like terrain masking, and Self Protection jamming pod) while closing in on a careless enemy. When the JF-17 got within the SD-10's No escape envelope range, it just had to launch and watch the Mig hopelessly struggle to avoid getting hit. Also the Indian mig probably didn't have good EW equipment; i.e. no self defense jamming pod. The PAF probably used the SD-10 almost like a WVR missile; i.e. last 20-30 km so as to use the high energy of the missile at the beginning of its rocket motor burn and ability to pull higher G's. Getting a good radar lock on the enemy and passing that on to the Sd-10's seeker until the last minute will minimize the enemy RWR detecting a missile launch on it, but only an enemy radar detecting it. This is why the AESA radar is needed; it lowers the ability of the enemy RWR detecting it has been locked on to.

PAF needs to push for getting the PL-12D ramjet BVR missile or PL-15 BVR missile on the JF-17 Block III. This will allow the PAF to start fielding a meteor class BVR missile at the same time the enemy does, and prevent the enemy gaining an advantage.

A good channel to see simulations of aerial warfare (on DCS) on youtube is "Growling Sidewinder"
The following video shows the range and tactics employed to get a BVR missile into a proper position to maximize a kill not guarantee of getting a kill. Even at close range the enemy pilot can use techniques like notching to trick a missile. Therefore Pilot skill and modern EW electronics will be huge in all future aerial battles along side better and better BVR missiles.

The following video shows Migs versus Eagles in a BVR fight

 

[messiach]

The pilot said in his last interview that he was looking for targets when he was shot down. Except if Thunder managed to get on his six with him being completely clueless, I'd say its more likely a BVR kill.

@Oscar No one is willing to speak as air ops are still in continuation. Very sketchy info.

1-It is looking as more damages havr been inflicted in air or ground than being reported by ISPR, >6 incld EWS platforms , surface to air in different places along LoC.
2-Immediately after Three bogies enter an air quarantine zone. Two or possibly three BVR engagements at this point with one kill probably a long range fighter bomber!! >2 multi roles participated in killing on our side of LoC.
3- Seconds later, another engagement, a WVR/maybe BVR!!, another kill perhaps mig. One multirole involved.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

The very first air to air battle of the modern and capable fighter aircraft of similar capability resulted in a BVR missile fight---resulted in enemy's aircraft casualty and supposedly had a very high kill ratio---.

Do you people remember those fools on high position on this forum who would jump back to the vietnam war era air to air combat and the failure of the air to air missiles---these morons and goofballs were think tank members and think tank chairperson---and they were full of sarcasm and insults---hey you---look who is the fool now---.

You fools---I told you then---the technology has expanded over a million times from the vietnam era---the old computer that would fill a house is being captured in the palm of the hand today and has a million times more processing power---and yet you guys kept on harping your intellect out of sheer stupidity---.

It amazed and surprised me when I tried to explain---look guys---nations are fielding these million dollar + bvr missiles---they have so much investment behind these missiles---it is technically not possible for these missiles to fail---but the error was on my part that I was trying to teach water buffaloes and bulls the intricacies and fine points of classical music---.

I then stated something else as well---the machine gun would be an obsolete item for a modern fighter aircraft---and the same group of people talked about the same vietnam era bullsh-it---the Phantom episode---.

Today I shut them off as well---.

Today's modern warfare between similar modern aircraft would not leave time for the fighter pilot to look for where his guns are pointed at---neither would he have the time to get closer and lock the target to the gun sight and let go of a burst---.

So---in this very first air to air combat---you people will acknowledge the ferocity of the BVR combat---you people will acknowledge the lethality of the BVR combat---and once you acknowledge the gains due to BVR combat---you will do your very best to stay out of any other combat that would get you in any closer position to the enemy---.

The machine gun / canon can be replaced with an extra modular fuel tank---or any other EW device helpfull to the aircraft etc etc etc---.

Sir there are no machine guns on jets but cannons. I hope you correct the tittle.

 

[CriticalThought]

There are other techniques to minimize detection (like terrain masking, and Self Protection jamming pod) while closing in on a careless enemy. When the JF-17 got within the SD-10's No escape envelope range, it just had to launch and watch the Mig hopelessly struggle to avoid getting hit. Also the Indian mig probably didn't have good EW equipment; i.e. no self defense jamming pod. The PAF probably used the SD-10 almost like a WVR missile; i.e. last 20-30 km so as to use the high energy of the missile at the beginning of its rocket motor burn and ability to pull higher G's. Getting a good radar lock on the enemy and passing that on to the Sd-10's seeker until the last minute will minimize the enemy RWR detecting a missile launch on it, but only an enemy radar detecting it. This is why the AESA radar is needed; it lowers the ability of the enemy RWR detecting it has been locked on to.

PAF needs to push for getting the PL-12D ramjet BVR missile or PL-15 BVR missile on the JF-17 Block III. This will allow the PAF to start fielding a meteor class BVR missile at the same time the enemy does, and prevent the enemy gaining an advantage.

A good channel to see simulations of aerial warfare (on DCS) on youtube is "Growling Sidewinder"
The following video shows the range and tactics employed to get a BVR missile into a proper position to maximize a kill not guarantee of getting a kill. Even at close range the enemy pilot can use techniques like notching to trick a missile. Therefore Pilot skill and modern EW electronics will be huge in all future aerial battles along side better and better BVR missiles.

The following video shows Migs versus Eagles in a BVR fight

This was most probably a head on encounter because the Indians were giving chase to retreating aircraft and were ambushed without them realizing it. This is the most likely scenario:

1. Radar spoofing showed 24 F-16s on their radars which caused them to scramble.
2. When they reached the area, either there was nothing, or PaF aircrafts retreated into own airspace.
3. Two Indian jets foolishly decided to cross the LoC.
3. As soon as they were in the area, they were ambushed with BVRs.

This is my speculation. Only the official sources can clarify.

 

[sparten]

The pilot said in his last interview that he was looking for targets when he was shot down. Except if Thunder managed to get on his six with him being completely clueless, I'd say its more likely a BVR kill.

Means his RWR did not pick up the Thunder RADAR lock.

 

[CriticalThought]

Means his RWR did not pick up the Thunder RADAR lock.

Or, he didn't have time to react. The words "I was looking for targets" could be generalization. Or, the Thunder engaged in "Fire then lock". The Indian jet would be already under monitoring through AEWACS, it is possible NCW guided the BVR towards its target until terminal phase active guidance took over. And finally, yes, it is possible that the beam quality of Thunder radar was able to avoid the RWR. Or, it could be a BVR with IR seeker.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Nikal BSDK.. by the way, I don't know about dogs.. do you have them in your family as you know them better?

You looks like weak man, can't even argue. and You reached his family.
Pathetic.

 

[PakSword]

You looks like weak man, can't even argue. and You reached his family.
Pathetic.

Have you checked the complete trail? He started it. I offered him respect, and asked a simple question.

If someone will get personal, I will go personal with him.

And I don't understand your types who do not investigate the reason.

You are like Indian army, which always blames Indians when the security forces are killed by kashmiris.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

You are like Indian army, which always blames Indians when the security forces are killed by kashmiris.

Kashmiris are also not angel. They are doing Jihad. Do you expect flowers in return?

 

[PakSword]

Kashmiris are also not angel. They are doing Jihad. Do you expect flowers in return?

Yeah that tells why you are siding with a pathetic guy.

India attacked Pakistan, when Pakistan responded, poor souls are showing the remains of bvr missile that hit them.

When Indians kill kashmiris, and rape their women, it's fine, when kashmiris blow themselves up to kill soldiers, they are termed as terrorists..