Hundreds occupied Islamabad's Lal Masjid Friday, painting the walls red

[blitz]

Yes it is true that these terrorists must be clamped down with an iron hand, but it will never solve the problem. You will kill every last one of them, but when their kids grow up, they will do the same thing. You have to identify the cause, and then eliminate it. In this case, the cause is an ideology, the hardest enemy to fight.

IMVHO, there are two ways to go about it. One is a quick fix solution that will end the violence, but will hurt a lot in the long run. Impose Shariah in Pakistan.

Second is the hard and slow one, will take titanic commitment from the leadership. It will not stop the violence in the short run, but will make Pakistan a prosperous and stable nation in the long run. Revise the education system, reign upon the countless madrassahs, de-emphasize the role of Islam in everyday life, separate religion and state, inculcate unity on the basis of nation instead of religion in the young generation, and most importantly, prove to the people that their lives are not dispensable, that the government will care for them and protect them. I am always shocked to hear Pakistanis talk about their 'ja hil awam' as if they are cattle. The elitist and feudal system must be dismantled. The pervasive hypocrisy in the society will have to be eradicated to generate trust in the government. For example, people blowing up policemen in Pakistan are terrorists, but the same people blowing up policemen in India or UK are mujahideen. This thing never works. Its a generational undertaking that requires immense willpower by every Pakistani citizen.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bull]

There is a saying in the film Sarkar...'aadmi ko nahi uske soch ko marna chahiye'..

 

[Scorpius]

There is a saying in the film Sarkar...'aadmi ko nahi uske soch ko marna chahiye'..

Does that mean: you should never kill a person?

 

[roadrunner]

The radicals are a funny breed of people. They must think the alliances they're forming with whoever, Bharat or Karzai, will not a problem after they defeat Musharraf (which I doubt will happen but it's the logic that counts). Going after the ones at the top won't make any difference as someone suggested it's an ideology that's at stake here. Pakistanis are generally far too passive with these people, they should be taking to the street, but I feel the tag of something like a Mosque makes them feel they shouldnt mess with it. Trouble is there's a dense media there who are a bit like monkeys that lack any responsibility for their actions. The government looks to be the only institution run on merit, else the media is all related to each other with Uncle Ackkmed at the helm and all his nephews underneath him. None of them can write well anyway.

 

[HAIDER]

wat the hack if govt kill both his thought and person. Biggest problem again, pashtun action reflects more nationalism then religion.

 

[Awesome]

In this context it means don't kill the extremists, but kill the extremism. A concept that Pakistan has been experimenting with on and off, but our western friends suddenly turn up the pressure to go gung-ho, John Woo style after the whole situation.

Sooner or later, only that approach would work.

I too however believe that there should be a mix of strategies involved. On the one hand we need to win the hearts and minds of the young of the older extremist breed and on the other hand we need to do some action too.

Personally I believe in a little something called Broken-windows theory, proposed by Malcolm Gladwell. He suggested that if you leave a broken window on a building sooner or later some hooligans passing by would assume its broken to throw another rock at one of the building windows for fun, then another and another. A mended window in the first place would defeat the mindset that another window can be broken.

In the same sense, we need to take away the amount of guns normal folk have within Pakistan. Especially anything rifle-class and above. Earlier I mentioned how wrong it was that a particular madrassa kept grenades and AK-47s and that it was rightfully targeted by the government even though it ended up in 80 people dead (militants and innocents included). Of course one of our members close from the tribal belt argued how common it was for normal people to keep grenades and AKs so that doesn't prove they are terrorists.

That sort of mindset has to be defeated. It is not okay to keep grenades. It's not okay to keep rifles at a place of study. It is not okay for our tribal people to rejoice in the fact that their child is now old enough to hold a gun and spray some bullets in the air (yes, its time of great pride within some of our cultures, much like the first footsteps).

 

[roadrunner]

wat the hack if govt kill both his thought and person. Biggest problem again, pashtun action reflects more nationalism then religion.

What's the connection between Pashtun nationalism and what's happening in Lal Masjid? ANP are the nationalists and they supported the government actions for once

 

[roadrunner]

In this context it means don't kill the extremists, but kill the extremism. A concept that Pakistan has been experimenting with on and off, but our western friends suddenly turn up the pressure to go gung-ho, John Woo style after the whole situation.

Sooner or later, only that approach would work.

I too however believe that there should be a mix of strategies involved. On the one hand we need to win the hearts and minds of the young of the older extremist breed and on the other hand we need to do some action too.

Personally I believe in a little something called Broken-windows theory, proposed by Malcolm Gladwell. He suggested that if you leave a broken window on a building sooner or later some hooligans passing by would assume its broken to throw another rock at one of the building windows for fun, then another and another. A mended window in the first place would defeat the mindset that another window can be broken.

In the same sense, we need to take away the amount of guns normal folk have within Pakistan. Especially anything rifle-class and above. Earlier I mentioned how wrong it was that a particular madrassa kept grenades and AK-47s and that it was rightfully targeted by the government even though it ended up in 80 people dead (militants and innocents included). Of course one of our members close from the tribal belt argued how common it was for normal people to keep grenades and AKs so that doesn't prove they are terrorists.

That sort of mindset has to be defeated. It is not okay to keep grenades. It's not okay to keep rifles at a place of study. It is not okay for our tribal people to rejoice in the fact that their child is now old enough to hold a gun and spray some bullets in the air (yes, its time of great pride within some of our cultures, much like the first footsteps).

Letting people have guns isn't really a problem I think. In America you can legally own a gun, and though they've had WACO it's not a huge problem there. Lal Masjid is just a bit of the same, perhaps they shoudl have just closed Lal Masjid down. Government needs to just be firmer with them. They should use id cards for everyone, that'd at least get rid of the illegals in Pakistan, and quite a bit of Jihadi stuff. Combine it with making weapons illegal in Madrassahs, fair enough, and start teaching a different brand of Islam in public places.

 

[Awesome]

Guns in Pakistan aren't a defensive weapon, but offensive ones.

We in Dubai do just fine without any guns, I'm just arguing that rifles and above should not be allowed. Pistols seem fine, since they can't really be a terrorists weapon.

Of course a terrorist would get guns and bombs if he has to, but its kinda good if we don't have so many people comfortable with using guns.

 

[roadrunner]

Guns in Pakistan aren't a defensive weapon, but offensive ones.

We in Dubai do just fine without any guns, I'm just arguing that rifles and above should not be allowed. Pistols seem fine, since they can't really be a terrorists weapon.

Of course a terrorist would get guns and bombs if he has to, but its kinda good if we don't have so many people comfortable with using guns.

Guns can also be used defensively, for every offensive weapon used in a fight, there's a defensive weapon (if everyone had one). Lal Masjid would say they were using it defensively because they were under siege, Pak Army would say they were using it defensively because they were trying to arrest people who broke the law and they were shooting at them. Personally I feel in this situation, Lal Masjid don't have a case, they broke the law, then resisted arrest.

I do believe these people are stupid enough to believe they can make a difference in Pakistan. That or they love the attention they get in th media, which again boils down to the pen pushing monkeys with no sense.

 

[HAIDER]

What's the connection between Pashtun nationalism and what's happening in Lal Masjid? ANP are the nationalists and they supported the government actions for once

In different forums talk to people presently living in NWFP, they see anti extremism drive as anti pashtuns drive.

 

[roadrunner]

In different forums talk to people presently living in NWFP, they see anti extremism drive as anti pashtuns drive.

Dude, half the people on forums arent even from those areas. How many tribals you know with access to a PC? Half of them are Bharatis that are Pashtun wannabees on internet forums. Use election results as an indicator of what people want.

 

[blitz]

Does that mean: you should never kill a person?

In this context it means "don't kill the man, kill his ideology". Ideology lives much longer than men do.

 

[BATMAN]

I dont think the opposition parties can be blamed for this. They wont like to kill police and army personals. Its the extremists/taliban/AQ/jihadi groups with roots in various places across Paksitan thats behind it

It is Indian government and the ruling northern alliance who is behind all those sucide attacks.
All sucide bombers are comming from Afghanistan and are trained and armed by Indian Army.
Few hundred Indian bought traitors i.e. Aitizaz Ahsan, Asma Jehangir and alike, are orchestring the protests on the instructions comming from Indian pay masters.

 

[Keysersoze]

It is Indian government and the ruling northern alliance who is behind all those sucide attacks.
All sucide bombers are comming from Afghanistan and are trained and armed by Indian Army.
Few hundred Indian bought traitors i.e. Aitizaz Ahsan, Asma Jehangir and alike, are orchestring the protests on the instructions comming from Indian pay masters.

You got some proof of that? lets not hit conspiracies quite yet..