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How to Overtake the Indian Armour ?

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Santro

I believe the indians have a fairly good idea of Pakistans nuclear threshold
i dont believe the indians will pass this threshold in any scenario

THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS have no first use of nukes policy.

I am certain cold start does not involve going much beyond 50km accross the borders and splitting PAKISTAN IN 2 WAS their pre cold start strategy of yesteryear.

Naval blockade is a strong possibility couplede with air strikes hence massive investment in SU30MKI AND SOON mmrca rafael i think

Splitting Pakistan in two does not mean invading so that Pakistan is broken in two, it means cutting off the lines of supply and communication between the north and the south.

What must also be understood..
most Indian territory 100km deep into the border isnt too valuable..
but a lot of Pakistani territory 100km in is.

A naval blockade of Karachi is certain.. and Pasni will be pressurized as well.
the PN surface fleet may not last for more than a week..especially the larger combatants.
However, subs and smaller coastal missile craft will form a good short term deterrent for any effective blockade attempt further west along the coast.

The MMRCA's will work the lines well.. but they may be held back for China.
the MKI's.. the M2K's.. and the Jaguars will be the main punchers.
Moreover.. the MKI's will be able to use their range to bypass defenses and attack from odd angles on key installations.
 
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1st of all everyone tell me if god forbids there is any war between india & pakistan ,do u think it would be limited to conventional war if pakistan uses tactical nukes against our forces ,absolutely no it would escalate to a full scale nuclear war .For instance there is
nuclear war there can be shield for ballistic & cruise missiles ,but is there any shield for nuclear fallout just tell me .just imagine one nuclear accident in fukushima nuclear plant created panic world wide about nuclear radiation .Imagine what would be like if a full scale nuclear war happens ,can any one survive from nuclear fallout radiation.NO mate
 
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A couple of things..
NATO forces knew throughout the 80's.. that eventually Soviet armor.. due to sheer numbers and improving weaponry would break open their lines. There was no way to match it tank for tank, shell for shell. Technology for technology.

However, late 80's.. USAF did a study on the Soviet logistics system and found that the Soviet supply system was made of some key hubs. If these key hubs could be taken out.hubs such as fuel supply stations and forward ammo dumps. The Soviet thrust would grind to a halt. The study was called "checkmate".

A similar approach may be adopted or may already be adopted or planned by the PAF. It is crystal clear that India CANNOT EVER be matched in terms of numbers and perhaps technology as well.
What must be adopted are smarter tactics, and a constant lookout for possible weakness that would negate the numerical and technological advantages.

What must also be understood, that unlike europe which has certain depth for fallback, Pakistan has none.
Any intrusion deeper than a few deca kilometers will threaten key industrial, logistical, population and infrastructure center's.
The effectiveness of an Indian force to penetrate this fault line is increasing exponentially with time.
The PA knows this, SPD knows this..
It is , whether anybody likes it or not.. very clear to the establishment that a determined Indian attack will be through within a few days if not hours.

One must also consider the PA doctrine, since the 80's and Brasstacks.. The PA is now convinced that its immediate goal is to slow down a certain IA advance, grab as much Indian territory as possible ..then hope that the diplomatic circles can get them a ceasefire.
Had the establishment been smarter , it would have slowly shifted logistical and industrial center's west, into the bad lands of Balochistan. Where there was possibility of falling back. However.. by their own folly and with a little encouragement by the perceived threat. Balochistan isnt going to be as welcoming to another encroachment by the PA.. Although efforts are underway to move the communication and logistical lines further back.

As ridiculous as it sounded.. The IA is moving to improve its mobility on the plains of Punjab, and its airborne element... but more on that later. The Idea of Cutting Pakistan in two (breaking it has been done already) via a thrust in the south.. blockading Karachi and perhaps cutting if off entirely.. the three main highway's.. and a rail artery are within a 180km from the Border.
The alternate link runs through balcohistan.. an area that can be made hostile for any resupply routes by the enemy through conventional and unconventional means.
Fuel and weapons may still arrive in Pakistan via alternate ports that may be defended for two weeks or so(if PA manages to hold its ground).

Then comes the captial, relatively open for Aerial attacks.. and if the Shakargarh bulge is taken.. a highway away from being overtaken.

Now that the likely scenario has been laid out.
The weight falls.. yet again.. on the PAF to save the day.
It must survive against insurmountable odds, and deliver precise blows that must cause any Indian IBG to slow down in its tracks.
It does not need to keep air superiority all over Pakistan, Just prevent key logistical lines of the PA from failing. These are fairly well protected in the Punjab.. but in the Thar and Cholistan areas.. and in Sindh.. they are well exposed to air attack.
the IAF will not have an easy time supporting its troops directly as the PA is in possession of many and very effective MANPADS and AAA. Which will extract losses from the IAF no matter what..as the nature of the Battlefield is as such.

However, whilst the reserves from the PA pour in.. the PAF must ensure that it survives long enough to make sure that these troops reach the fight quick.. and that their weapons do so as well.

PakMil can NEVER hope to annihilate, obliterate or do anything "ate" otherwise to the Indian Armour beyond what it is capable of.
What it must ensure is to keep it at bay long enough for diplomacy to prevail.
Problem is, if Pakistan has already lost on the Diplomatic front, then what?
Then sirs.. Weapons like the NASR come in.
However.. that is a new game.
A single NASR will invite a similar response on a greater scale from India.. We will retaliate with a strike on some airfield..
They will retaliate with a strike on GHQ or AHQ.. and we launch it all.. and they launch it all.
And the Indian subcontinent will be a quiet neighborhood for the next 300 years.

Moral of the story is You can't just use NASR against cold start doctrine. No matter how members here fantasize it on this forum!

Because India has already mentioned it clearly that:-

Any use of Nuclear weapon on its Armed forces either Inside or Outside the country will be seen as act of nuclear war! And will lead to devastating consequences!

So..either you use 1 kg of nuclear weapon or 100 kg it is the same thing a "Nuclear" Attack! Which then lead to very dangerous end!!

So stop Fantasizing the last resort!
 
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How to Annihilate the invading Indian Armour ?


Introduction

Been thinking about it ever since my close friend in the east has been developing its so called "cold start doctrine" which was envisioned to "punish" Pakistan without sparking a full scale nuclear war.
India is currently giving final touches to this doctrine through mass exercises like "Operation Vijayee Bhava" involving some 50,000 troops , battle tanks , APCs and air support.

Introduction to Cold Start

Cold Start is a military doctrine developed by the Indian Armed Forces in 2004.It involves joint operations between India's three main services Army, Navy, and Air Force and integrated battle groups for offensive operations.

A key component is the preparation of India's forces to be able to quickly mobilize and take offensive actions.Keeping in view the perceived inability of the Indian military to leverage its conventional superiority to end Pakistan's proxy war in Kashmir, the Cold Start doctrine is intended to allow it to mobilize quickly and undertake limited retaliatory attacks on Pakistan, without crossing nuclear threshold.

Setbacks

The operational study of this doctrine suggests the use of Nazi Blitzkrieg technique which involves the use of all-mechanized force concentration of tanks, infantry, artillery and air power, concentrating overwhelming force at high speed to break through enemy lines.

This technique relies heavily on two major assets , if any of two is defeated completely the invasion would fail with heavy loses to Indian side.

1: Armor
2: Air power [Close Air Support]

1:Armor


Nasr Ballistic Missile

Recently Pakistan tested BRBM Nasr on 19th April 2011 as a response to India's cold start doctrine which is considered to be a game changer.

The Nasr Missile has a range of 60 Kms and The diameter of the Nasr suggests that it is designed to carry a tactical nuclear warhead weighing less than 1 kg. This would be a boosted fission device using less than 1 kg of weapons grade plutonium, boosted with up to 4-5 grams of tritium.

The resulting yield would be in the sub-kiloton range and would be suitable for battlefield use. A sophisticated nuclear trigger mechanism would also be required.The Hatf IX Nasr seems to prove that Pakistan is capable of building small nuclear warheads for all types of delivery platforms.

This missile can well be used against invading Indian tanks like the Russian T-90 series or the Indian made Arjun main battle tank. Even though there are risks of radiation involved , this missile can turn the cold start on its toes as according to defence analysts and missile technology experts the system appears to have been developed as a "low-yield battlefield deterrent" targeted at "mechanized forces like armed brigades and divisions."

Indian plans of using IBGs [Integrated Battle Group] won't be able to sustain a large number of Tanks , APCs , Howitzers along with the infantry into an efficient , effective fighting force as the Indian establishment hopes. This gives a tactical advantage to Pakistan Military services as they can mobilize all major assets to deter such an attack in a short period of time. Thinking of IGBs the number of Tanks is expected to be between 400-600 tanks excluding APCs and other forms of light Armour. The use of Nasr Missile could mean the destruction of most of these mechanized units or at least it would ensure the destruction of a large chunk of the Indian armor leaving others vulnerable and demoralized , unable to achieve their basic objectives.

Babur/Raad Cruise Missile

Pakistan air force has a lethal , stealthy air launched cruise missile in its arsenal which could carry a 1100KG nuclear / conventional payload with a range of 350Kms which means all 15 forward Indian Air force bases , and Indian Army Installations are with in its effective range. Upon such invasion the Raad can take out vital command and control centers , communication infrastructure leaving the IBGs disconnected and isolated on the battlefield.

Thunder_Ra_ad_Air_Launched_Cruise_Missile_ALCM_Hatf-VIII_.jpg



Babur Cruise missile has an effective range of 700kms and can carry a 1500kg Nuclear/chemical/biological/conventional payload , this missile has Indian Capital New dehli in its range for taking out any vital command and control structure ie Indian Ministry of Defense and Military HQ.


Mass use of Cluster Bombs

Pakistan produces its own cluster munitions and they are highly effective against the armor , Most anti-armor munitions contain shaped charge warheads to pierce the armor of tanks and armored fighting vehicles. In some cases, guidance is used to increase the likelihood of successfully hitting a vehicle.

A207-236.thumb.jpg


Unguided shaped-charge submunitions are designed to be effective against entrenchments that incorporate overhead cover. To simplify supply and increase battlefield effectiveness by allowing a single type of round to be used against nearly any target, submunitions that incorporate both fragmentation and shaped-charge effects are produced.

JF-17%20Thunder%20jets%20.jpg


Cluster Bombs seen on JF-17 Thunder.

Pakistan air force should not abandon its old fleet of Mirages and F-7s about to be replaced , they rather should be kept in storage , some in fly away condition if the need comes by , these air crafts can be used to attack the Indian IBGs with large quantities of cluster bombs which would annihilate the indian armor in its tracks.

Example.


ATGMs

ATGMs used by Infantry can prove fatal for the invading armor , the example can be taken from the Hizbullah attacks on the Israeli Markeva tanks. As well as the use of ATGMs by Egyptian army against the Israeli armor in Sainai desert.


2: Air Warfare

Another aspect of defeating Indian cold start is in the air , IAF would not deploy majority of its assets for such an operation , but we can expect them to deploy the advanced Su-30MKI , Mig-29SMT and Mirage-2000s. Expected Number could be between 150-300 combat jets , guided by Phalcon AWACS , mainly providing close air support and air defense against PAF.

PAF has an advantage of deploying its assets according to its will , the F-16C/Ds , Air Defense Units , JF-17 Thunders and upcoming J-10B fighter air crafts to provide air support and thwart Indian air assault.

Pakistan is in talks with the Chinese to buy up to 4 advanced High end surface to air missile systems , which are highly mobile and have long range strike capability. Ie the HQ-9 , KS-1A , HQ-18 and one undisclosed system , largely considered to be the anti radiation variant of HQ-9 the FT/D-2000 , used to shoot down AWACS on long ranges and high altitudes.

If PAF and Pakistan air defense units could destroy or damage half of this air strike team of the IAF , it would be considered as a defeat as those air crafts left wont be able to meet the demanding criteria of both CAS and Air defense.

Conclusion

Limited numbers of armored vehicles , IFVs , tanks and fighter air crafts are the window of opportunity for Pakistan military , the success would totally depend on how quickly the assets are deployed in operational conditions and how effectively they are used against these so called IBGs.

Inflicting maximum numbers of casualties possible on the Indian infantry must also be considered , which in effect means the use of cluster bombs in large quantities , along with chemical and biological weapons if needed. Pakistan can defeat India but that all will depend on its preparedness and execution of this operation.

Regards: Aeronaut



* Feedback would be appreciated.




Let's assume following situation of cold start doctrine...
Time line January 2016

the build up:

There is a massive terror attack on Indian soil by non state actors originating from pakistan. there is troop buildup similar to 26/11 and then in couple of months everything calms down in the media.

Cold start

Day 1:
22.30 - Brahmos / Nirbhay Missile strikes on forward radar installations, and forward aribases in eastern sector of pakistan.

22.45 hrs:

12 strike packages , each strike package consisting of 4 M2k , 2 MKI flying Air Interdicition config, 3 Mig29SMT and 4 Rafale's flying Air superiority hit target the following targets

PAF Mianwali
PAF Sargodha
Paf jacobabad
PAf mushaf
6th Armoured Division headquartered at Gujranwala
1st Armoured Division headquartered at Multan
12th Infantry Division headquartered at Murree
26th Mechanised Division headquartered at Bahawalpur
22nd Division headquartered at Sargodha

(render them temporarily non operational) (assume 80% objectives achieved according to plan )

4 IAF strike packages same configuration as above strike Pakistan navy preceded with missile attacks from forward deployed INS Delhi, INS Trishul and INS trikand.

4 Naval strike packages attack PN assets in sea in hunter killer formation, composed of 6 Mig 29 each

Indian navy begins forward deployment for its CBG

23.30 hrs:


First wave begins.

IBG combination (assume) Fast attack Light IBG
25 t90, 10 Arjun MBT, 15 IFV, 12 Support vehicle, 3 LCH/ALH/MI 35 forward control, 6 Pinaka batteries. 2 mig 29 cover for each light IBG. 1 battalion of infantry

18 light IBG squads break loc at rajasthan and punjab and gujrat sectors,


00.00 hrs Heavy Air interdiction mission
strike package combination : 4 jaguar 4 M2k bomber missions, 4 Su30 Multirole configuration, 3 Mig 29's flying air superiority mission.
16 strike packages clear ground resistance for light IBG's

00.30 heavy shelling across all available assets

01.15 hrs
Heavy IBG Configuration
35 T90/T72, 15 ArjunMBT, 30 IFV, 4 batteries of SA8, 8 tunguska, 3 LCH/ALH/Mi 35 Forward air control configuration, 10 Pinaka mlrs, (4 Mig 27 close air support and 4 Su 30 MKI dedicated air support for group of 4 heavy IBGS)

16 Heavy IBG's and another 8 light IBG's break LOC in punjab and rajhastan and gujrat sector, Heavy IBG's aim for control of forward PA targets, Light IBG's reinforce the first wave,

01.45 Hrs. Fire missions for Artillery and cruise missiles directed by forward IbG's at resistance.

02.00 First wave IBG"s hold ground with air cover.

02.30 hrs :
Second Strike mission begins after damage estimation of first IAF strike.
20 strike packages (strike package consisting of 4 M2k , 2 MKI flying Air Interdicition config, 3 Mig29SMT and 2 MKI flying Air superiority) forward air installation and armored divisions targeted.

03.10 8 Light IBG from second wave trailing first wave by 2 hrs reinforce 8 light IBG's in Punjab sector. In rajhasthan sector and gujrat sectors 8 IBGS of first wave join into 4 IBGS .

04.00 hrs 12 dual Light IBG's and 16 Heavy IBG's are in pakistani territory engaged with PA in 3 sectors at 28 different locations. 14 locations face very stiff resistance, 6 locations see lighter resistance and IA IBG's break through at 8 locations.

4.30 2 Armored divisions break through into pakitan in 8 groups, and 411 (Independent) Parachute Field Company (Bombay Sappers), 622 Parachute Composite Company ASC are air dropped into forward engagement areas.

5.00 3 Infantry divisions and 2 mountain division mount attack on kashmir sector.

5.30 Air interdiction Missions, Strike package, 4 mig 27 & 4 jaguar strike configuration, 2 rafale flying air superiority, 8 mig 21 air patrol.

6.00 Air Interdiction mission, Strike package, 3 m2k, 5 MKI strike configuration 6 rafale air superiority configuration, 3 Mig 29 SMT air patrol, 2 MKI dedicated electronic warfare configuration.



Assume such are the initial 7 hrs of cold start? what comes next?
 
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In next war India will be at offensive position and the best strategy for Pakistan is to have strong intelligence and bombardment with A-100, Artillary, Cluster bombs, ATGM's.

PAF can defend itself they are in good offensive position compared to IAF, and PAF air support to ground and navy forces are amazingly improved with the induction of JF-17, i don't think IAF will risk 40-100Million$ plane and 2 pilots just to provide air support to few front line units not the case with PAF.

If we successfully defend ourselves in first 3 days and destroy all Indian offensive armor force and malnourished force then Delhi will collapse and our loose guns which we'll insert in India during war will make them bleed unmercifully for next 5 years. India is already Nanga from China border so Chinese can also take their territory back without much fight.
 
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Pakistan biggest deterrent to India is, the fact that China may come into action between the war of the 2 nations.
 
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In next war India will be at offensive position and the best strategy for Pakistan is to have strong intelligence and bombardment with A-100, Artillary, Cluster bombs, ATGM's.

PAF can defend itself they are in good offensive position compared to IAF, and PAF air support to ground and navy forces are amazingly improved with the induction of JF-17, i don't think IAF will risk 40-100Million$ plane and 2 pilots just to provide air support to few front line units not the case with PAF.

If we successfully defend ourselves in first 3 days and destroy all Indian offensive armor force and malnourished force then Delhi will collapse and our loose guns which we'll insert in India during war will make them bleed unmercifully for next 5 years. India is already Nanga from China border so Chinese can also take their territory back without much fight.

may be Pakistan will be nanga in next war..... waste of time to reply u.
 
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Pakistan biggest deterrent to India is, the fact that China may come into action between the war of the 2 nations.

Extremely Extremely unlikely.
Pakistan may engage India in case a war with China is on.. But China would be very hesitant to step in in case of an India/Pakistan conflict.

It will provide material and diplomatic support.
But that it it.
 
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Extremely Extremely unlikely.
Pakistan may engage India in case a war with China is on.. But China would be very hesitant to step in in case of an India/Pakistan conflict.

It will provide material and diplomatic support.
But that it it.
China has its own axe to grind with India. You don't need to see it as "saving Pakistan" per se. It's also China making its move to eliminate a competitor in Asia for good while India is preoccupied on its western front.

When Sino-Indian relations are reasonable good, the chances are not high. When Sino-India relations are poor, the Chinese leadership would be stupid not to use the opportunity to take out India but let India take out Pakistan and then turn its full attention to China later.
 
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may be we should stick on topic pls, China involvement is not needed here.
 
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No need of nukes indian armoured forces can be wiped out with handheld javelian like missiles known as Bajkhtare shikan or
milan which pakistan has in unspecified numbers
 
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I sticking to what i said GUYS.

Economically for india it will be a major setback at best and a disaster at worse for indian sustained GDP growthy and FDI

India will do everything to avoid war UNLESS they are cornored and no option left ie KARGIL type raid on indian territory.

---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

The chinease are more likely to take on USA over taiwan than india. ITS a virtual non starter

and since the intro of nukes the indo/pak war likelihood as diminished too

sorry to our arm Chair generals IT AINT HAPPENING
 
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China has its own axe to grind with India. You don't need to see it as "saving Pakistan" per se. It's also China making its move to eliminate a competitor in Asia for good while India is preoccupied on its western front.

When Sino-Indian relations are reasonable good, the chances are not high. When Sino-India relations are poor, the Chinese leadership would be stupid not to use the opportunity to take out India but let India take out Pakistan and then turn its full attention to China later.

historically your leadership has stayed away from Indo-Pak wars. I dont see much reason why they would take such a step in any future scenario. Like santro has rightly pointed out IA already stations sufficient resources to man the china border and will not move them for a PK war.
Moving our assets from the chinese border would be a waste anyway.
 
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A couple of things..
NATO forces knew throughout the 80's.. that eventually Soviet armor.. due to sheer numbers and improving weaponry would break open their lines. There was no way to match it tank for tank, shell for shell. Technology for technology.

Indeed, that is why you can see that Pakistan is not matching India weapon for weapon. But if you look closely at the Indian Armoured Core, you have to keep in mind that they have to split it in three if they decide to go for a war against Pakistan. They need to protect their flank against China, assign divisions for defence and the third force will be tasked for offensive operations against Pakistan. The numerical superiority will decrease as Pakistan can afford to direct all its Armoured Core towards the invading force not to mention the attrition the Indians will take once they take hits from well dug in ATMG threats.

The effectiveness of an Indian force to penetrate this fault line is increasing exponentially with time.
The PA knows this, SPD knows this..

PA knows this very well and that is why it has embarked on its modernization plans to deal with this threat. Well dug in Pakistani infantry armed with potent ATMG's, artillery and MLRS will make advance very costly for the invading Indian IBG's. PA is buying exactly the right weapons it needs to pin down IA's IBG's.

The IA is moving to improve its mobility on the plains of Punjab, and its airborne element...

I would disagree with this point, IA did have a huge advantage when it was the only side fielding the Smerch, now A100 gives PA the liberty to destroy any bridge the IA throws up from a safe distance.
 
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