How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[TVVELVEMO$]

It seems that you know about the RVV-SD very well for making such points ?

That's a fair question. Let me answer it tangentially. Do you think if US spends $700B on defence, it would use some of those funds to keep abreast of all potential adversary weapon systems?

It is highly unlikely that USAF/USN will show up for a knife-fight without the biggest turkey carver....I thought I would just put some seasonal cheer into this drab and repetitve forum post!!!!

 

[DARKY]

That's a fair question. Let me answer it tangentially. Do you think if US spends $700B on defence, it would use some of those funds to keep abreast of all potential adversary weapon systems?

It is highly unlikely that USAF/USN will show up for a knife-fight without the biggest turkey carver....I thought I would just put some seasonal cheer into this drab and repetitve forum post!!!!

And some how you think the rest who too spend as much as $ 100B on defense are doing nothing about it.

Thats what the other poster was telling.... It is Highly unlikely that with all that defense budget and modernization available allround... Su30MKI would hardly show up for WVR without the longest slicer.. It works both ways... IAF got a good evaluation on the part of latest Americans had to offer with their most modern F-16 and most modern Super Hornet(4.75 gen).. and Upgraded the MKI fleet accordingly... with the latest R-77 RVV-SD and R-74 missiles.

Avoiding WVR and not showing up for WVR are two different things.... Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR and EW capability.

 

[Black Widow]

First what is "HEAVY" class and how is it different from a MRCA? Do you think F-15 is a heavy class Or MRCA? >>>It is hard to argue with someone who uses arcane terms to win an argument.

You had asked a question:"The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? .." Is that not your question? I supplied you with a fact that directly refutes your implication in the question. Is that not correct, now you want to dither into a ramblefest with no real direction. My POINT was that do not use bad arguments to support your contention.......BTW Have you read the book "The argumentative Indian" it is by an Indian before you get all prideful.

The BVR scenario you are using to scare the Paks was only applicable when in Kargil they had no BVR and you could shoot them at BVR ranges. Now they have rectified that deficiency. The ultra-long range "shoot & scoot" philosophy you are using was coined by USAF for F/A-22A Raptor armed with one of the best airborne Radars and AIM-120D\C-8. You keep impressing Paks that you can shoot & scoot without meeting any of their fighters.

The problem with that is your aircraft is NOT low-observable\stealth like Raptor. They will see it coming with their surveillance radars. You do not have AMRAAM 120D. Your Amraamski CAN be jammed. You may shoot and scoot. How will you know it hit anything? And lastly after a Flanky has shot his BVRAAM load and turns to exit.....is it not possible that a Pakistani fighter may scope him out as he extends back home? Is it NOT evenly remotely possible?

If these HEAVY fighters NEVER engage in WVR combat then you better let the RAF know 'cause they just put a video on TheAviationistdotCom showing 2 Typhoons (A HEAVY CLASS per your peculiar classification) successfully engaging 2 Turkish vipers (MRCA or point defence planes per you classificaton). Please let them know it is no longer a worthwhile endeavor!

And speaking of being contextually clued in....I have not seen any of my countrymen on this topic ...Please feel free to point them out to me....

Or next time when bragging about you weapon system just use accurate & cogent argument.

I could not make any sense of you last sentence about cold war and 10 exchanges. Do read up on PAF kills during First Afghan War, Israeli Viper kills over Bekaa, Sinai. Tomcats in Iran-Iraq war. Is that enough context for you?

Look like I misunderstood u as Pakistani.. Sorry for confusion. Secondly as you pick my last post you may misunderstood the context.

Finally I agree that I am less knowledgeable than you in weapon technology, and I learn form ppl like you. You guys are source of knowledge, so in future I will defy seek ur guidance.

There are few thing I would like to put into your consideration before you totally misunderstand me..
a) The topic is PAF Vs Su30MKI, not USAF Vs Su30MKI.
b) The discussion is about 4th generation fighters, not 5th generation fighters, So F22, T50, J20 excluded.
c) As we all know for 4th gen fighters RCS hardly matters, They will be detected within targeting range.
d) The BiG question is " How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI"


@ heavy fighter : There was a WIKI page on category of fighter planes, Havy weight (~30 Tonns) , Medium weight class (20 Tonns), light weight (8-12 Tonns). I am unable to find that page..

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

And some how you think the rest who too spend as much as $ 100B on defense are doing nothing about it.................
Avoiding WVR and not showing up for WVR are two different things.... Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR and EW capability.

Are you publicly stating the Indian Defence Budget at $100Billion?

Even then there is a magnitude of 7 difference. Plus US budget is procurement & maintenance. Wars, development costs borne by Defence Industry are not included. Intelligence is a separate blockbuster. Lastly US does not see India as an adversary nor is AA-12 Adder (Izdeliye 170) Indian origin weapon. Nevertheless, let me assure you that AA-12 is a very good BVRAAM of 1980s vintage with some further development. Let us just end on this. "AIM-120D \C-8 is being deployed with taking all this into account". Unless you want to make history here by telling us AA-12 has been tested at extreme ranges of 1XX nm by Indian Flankers with kill probablility >50 under dense electronic jamming & clutter....that would just make my day!!!!

One last thing before I bail; what does this actually mean? ..."Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR.." Huh? Mighty cryptic?

 

[Storm Force]

Too many scenarios being used which dont apply to indo pak conflict or potential conflict.

TO TVVELVEMO$

There is no F22 OR TYPHOON in our scenario not even close regardless if its F16/52 or mki

MKI is not going to jumped on by PAF plane and be surprised,,,, ITS BARS radar of massive seach tracking range and twice the speed of the paf KLJ7 or APG radars will ensure the MKI sees first reacts first...

PAF combat fleet is deploying inferior combat planes to MKI ........BE IT F16, F7 OR JFT /mirage5 so the only way they are going to successfully counter mki is thru using force multiplers like awacs or GCC backed by SAMS and outnumbering mki in any particular mission.

 

[MilSpec]

Mr Sandy 3126, I understand that you & Paks are going hot & heavy but Raytheon AMRAAM AIM-120 D / C-8 is currently being fully fledged out and the "true" range and Kill Zone are Classified. I doubt you got hold of that information.

I assure you in comparing systems being currently live-tested or deployed worldwide only Meteor is a serious contender. Let's deal in facts and not bluster. Range and accuracy are two different parameters you need to pay attention. Have a nice day.

Dear sir,
I wont comment on specs or deployment of RVV-SD. If you are confident that vympel is not capable of making high accuracy BVR seeker, I have nothing to say.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

See, countering Su 30 mki is very easy, see how ordinary it is !!!

 

[帅的一匹]

J10B block2 will handle MKI, no need to worry.

 

[Shinigami]

J10B block2 will handle MKI, no need to worry.

why a j10b/? why not a j11/?

 

[Muradk]

What if they shot down your own JET??? lol then why don't you bring thousands of AGL instead of bringing costly fighter jets... huh...

You know you are right but after 71 Army has put in lots of effort into Air Defence, At first they had problems recognising the fighter now they don't. I have always said he is the most dangerous man on the ground because when he fire he will say
TO WHOM MAY IT CONCERN and fire. But things have changed a lot.

 

[Muradk]

Whao I read the posts very impressive. No trolling again very impressive. Everyone of you have a good amount of idea what goes on. The simple fact is just because you have the money you can't put your finger on the fighter and its yours. The amount of work put in to change the way you induct fighters is very difficult. There are so many factors involved in it that Air Force has to take them into account before making a decisions.

 

[Mav3rick]

In late 2007,
India agreed to a 5 year lease of the
Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal
to Singapore for training of the
latter's air force 's F-16 fighter
aircraft due to limited airspace in
Singapore. This is the first New
Delhi has ever leased out its
military installations to foreign
country on a long-term basis.

Foreign relations of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US Government is critical of any close inspection of their Jets such as the F-16 by opposition (read: Russia). Why in the world would they allow such with the Singaporean Air Force? It's just not possible.

 

[Viper0011.]

Except some isolated Incident there are no incident that F15 allowed rivals to come closer.

The matter of fact is, you didn't read the entire context. ur countrymen put forward the theory that Heavy class fighters can be countered using MRCAs or point defense fighter in WVR, My argument was "Why Heavy fighter involve in WVR when they can wipe out rival from a long distance?"

For your "American AMRAAM" : During cold war, your teen countered MiG25, total 10 Missile exchanged (including American AMRAAM), without any kill. We all know what Iraqi MiGs were, They were outdated.

I am confused....how do you classify 'heavy class' and 'MRCA'? I think the terms can be interchangeable. There is a LOT more to a jet then twin turbines for it to be classified as a Heavy Class and also as an MRCA !!
In the case of India and Pak (I've written about it like 50 times), the BVR option doesn't exactly work in India's favor. You guys are neighbors, you FOB's are within a 5-10 minutes supersonic sprint from each other. And due to the proximity, the radar with a 300 KM range is not better than a radar with 100 KM range. They'll both lock each other at similar distances and timings, i.e. when the aircraft get closer to the border and the other party scrambles their jets from an airbase or FOB closer to the border.
This isn't an F-22 scenario and nor any Indian jets are stealth. BVR's will be fired and then they will miss. Then WVR will happen. So don't count on 'long range kills' as you'll lose tremendously. This scenario calls out for a WVR + BVR combat. Not just the BVR combat!

 

[Mav3rick]

Oh yes hence the reply.

I am not the usual honey pot all PAF praise here you must realize before indulging.

I asked you a basic question that how does your JF-17 fire an AIM-120... you have been puking BS all over the thread and don't even have the reason... I recommend you the JF-17 information pool of this forum go and read the length and come back when you find If any JF-17 ever had Aim120 integrated with their radar.

Only a retard thinks JF-17 being equal to a Su30MKI... you beat even the fanboys on that.

And Here I say again... those Su27 and Su30s are no where near a Su30MKI that's something even the worst of the worst troll bots know here... only Su30MKM, Su30MKA and Su35 versions are close.
And I repeat the same thing once more... IAF pilots fly F-16block52 of Singapore AF every year they are in India and are evaluated with every new development on those jets.

I never went to any level...

What kind of stupid questions are you full of? And how am I supposed to answer your stupid questions as in how JFT fires an AIM-120C5. How does the JFT fire anything? How does the F-16 fire Nuclear Capable Missiles? Have you any idea about the JFT Radar? What language its code is written in? You speak as if you are intimate with developments of JFT.

I am not thinking that JFT is equal to a SU-30MKI, I'm only saying that the JFT can successfully take on the MKI within Pakistani airspace under cover of SAM and AWEACS. Plus other ground based EW assets.

When I speak of SU-27 & SU-30, I speak of all of their different versions available with friendly countries including Malaysia/China etc.

India has no access to Singaporean F-16's and that's a fact. Just like PAF had no access to drones that were stationed within Pakistan.

 

[arp2041]

I am confused....how do you classify 'heavy class' and 'MRCA'? I think the terms can be interchangeable. There is a LOT more to a jet then twin turbines for it to be classified as a Heavy Class and also as an MRCA !!
In the case of India and Pak (I've written about it like 50 times), the BVR option doesn't exactly work in India's favor. You guys are neighbors, you FOB's are within a 5-10 minutes supersonic sprint from each other. And due to the proximity, the radar with a 300 KM range is not better than a radar with 100 KM range. They'll both lock each other at similar distances and timings, i.e. when the aircraft get closer to the border and the other party scrambles their jets from an airbase or FOB closer to the border.
This isn't an F-22 scenario and nor any Indian jets are stealth. BVR's will be fired and then they will miss. Then WVR will happen. So don't count on 'long range kills' as you'll lose tremendously. This scenario calls out for a WVR + BVR combat. Not just the BVR combat!

Usually an ac of <15 tonne weight comes in Light weight category, eg. LCA.
15 to 25 tonnes comes in MRCA eg. Rafale.
& >25 tonnes comes in heavy weight, eg. su-30s.

Technically, it has nothing to do with twin engines. While PAF maintains ac only in Light & Medium weight categories, IAF doctrines calls for maintaining a mix of all 3 weight categories.

As for BVR option, it is very much valid in Indo-Pak scenario, nearly all PAF bases are near to Indian borders & Pakistan's width is 500-600km at max, Pakistan is at disadvantage here, but don't forget IAF has su-30mki bases as far as Assam besides the bases on Indo-Pak border, with growing AAR capability of IAF, i will not be surprised if u see a su-30 base coming up in A&N, this STRATEGIC DEPTH gives massive advantage to IAF over PAF.