How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Yeti]

Super 30 upgrade is on the cards in the future that will give us a upgraded pilot cockpit, new radar and several structural elements enhancing the jet’s stealth features that make it less visible to the enemy.

272 of these beasts is enough to face any threat the sheer numbers we have linked to the Phalcon AWACS which we will order more of is enough to deter anyone.

Also if PAF enters Indian airspace it will also have to face the threat of SPYDER missile system.

 

[rockstarIN]

Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise.
Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.

I read somewhere in PDF itself that in recent IDEAS 2012, an interview with a PAF senior officer..he stated that the BVR capability is not yet ready and the integration is going on. BUt I'm not able to find out the exact interview here now.

 

[mylovepakistan]

LOL!

i find it funny how much BARS radar is over hyped like i heard someone saying that it could/would scan as well as track a clean JF-17 at 200 km or more...

official specs tell BARS has a 'detection' range of 140 km against a 5 meter square target...while vayu-sena tripod mentioned the detection range for a MIG-21 as 135 km...

oh well,what about aero india 2011?

here you go..

 

[Hobo1]

jft and mki both would detect each other at almost same range

rest bvr will decide the outcome

if jft really got sd-10b than probably it would either have to get aim 120d or there is no missile in russian inventory even remotely close to sd-10b

MKI having more powerful radars means that MKI can for longer lengths guide their BVR missiles. So MKI can at take shots at Jf17 at much safer distance. JFs have to come much closer to MKI to have successful shot.

Indian MKI having two pilots and other other added advantage over JF17s.

And PAF have just acquired BVR capabilities where as at Time of Kargil India had BVR missiles. So Indian pilots are better trained in BVR tactics.

Chinese BVR missile outdoing their Russian counterpart at this moment seems a bit unbelievable at this stage.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Where did he even suggest of any Pakistani plans to 'invade' India????

Kashmir, Longewala, etc. Don't even try to deny the fact that Pakistan has "invaded" without air cover on at least 2 major occassi

 

[arbit]

Conclusion:

You specialize in ranting, not debating.

His arguments have merit. Also why are you quoting 10 years old articles / blogs in your support?

 

[ironman]

There is always a way to counter aircrafts, MKI is not invincible .. PAF definitely explored each and every possibilities. But at the end of the day numbers play the game. At times, I have posted this.. for who wants to downplay MKI's capabilities.

At General Dynamics we did a study of Flankers and its impact on our Business Development efforts internationally and the results surprised us.

We need to be very careful when comparing Flankers with other aircrafts. Realistically, it is one of the best if not the best among the 4th gen. brood.

I will try penning down a post based on the lessons learnt.

We can put BVR capable F-16s and JF-17 against any aircraft in the Indian inventory but SU-30 is a beast which will not be easy to kill. Though US has devised scenerios to confront and tame it if and when needed.

 

[Dazzler]

Your debate is for all to see.... go and come back when you have some strong argument and stop posting useless pages and outside forum pages which are from 10-8 years back and prehistoric times.

These "useless" pages have discussion contributed b some of the most knowledgeable people out there, some are retired AF personnel but you stand tall above the rest with your valuable analysis. Old pages does not mean the information become wrong. The SP-518/ SP-14 jammer pod info was given for a member who mentioned an "exclusive" super pod in possession by IAF which is far from truth.

Lastly, for once, try to make some sense and see the real picture of the region and stop considering MKI as the analogous of F-22 in the region, otherwise don't bother.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The other big problem for PAF is in WVR even leaving out the TVC problem,they don't have any counter to the HMS and r-73 archer off boresight missile.As far as i know PAF doesn't have the AIM-9X and without this and the python-5 which are the only 2 equivalents of the r-73 in WVR they will be at a serious disadvantage.When germany unified the luftwaffe took over the east german air forces mig-29s,they tested it and came to the conclusion that their mig-29s totally dominated all western aircraft in the wvr due to this missile and HMS combo.They even kept them in service.

 

[DARKY]

These "useless" pages have discussion contributed b some of the most knowledgeable people out there, some are retired AF personnel but you stand tall above the rest with your valuable analysis. Old pages does not mean the information become wrong. The SP-518/ SP-14 jammer pod info was given for a member who mentioned an "exclusive" super pod in possession by IAF which is far from truth.

Lastly, for once, try to make some sense and see the real picture of the region and stop considering MKI as the analogous of F-22 in the region, otherwise don't bother.

Neither was there any Su30MKI/Su35/Sap-14/518 or whatever related to this thread back in 2002.
There are many retired and passed off AF personnel who would've already died from that time how do you expect them to explain about something which is developed only recently.... There's hardly even the mention about such EW equipment on those 10 year old pages.

It is valuable no doubt but it is hard to understand what was the use ?
Those jammers have been tested on Su30MKI in Russia and are part of a few MKIs specially designed for EW and escort jamming abilities... much like Growler of USN... those jammers and ECM radiate a lot more power than the ALQ-99 pods.... and would be used for stand of jamming of airborne and ground based radars and communication system.

You won't find every 2nd MKI flying with those pods as they are too heavy and require a lot of power hampering the kinematics and load carrying ability for a normal MKI.

I never said that Su30MKI is an equivallent of F-22A I am only trying to provide a rough idea as to what a Su30MKI is.

The other big problem for PAF is in WVR even leaving out the TVC problem,they don't have any counter to the HMS and r-73 archer off boresight missile.As far as i know PAF doesn't have the AIM-9X and without this and the python-5 which are the only 2 equivalents of the r-73 in WVR they will be at a serious disadvantage.When germany unified the luftwaffe took over the east german air forces mig-29s,they tested it and came to the conclusion that their mig-29s totally dominated all western aircraft in the wvr due to this missile and HMS combo.They even kept them in service.

F-16block52 have got JHMCS which help the pilot to fire Aim9L/M missile.
However claims about Jf-17 are dubious.

 

[MilSpec]

jft and mki both would detect each other at almost same range

rest bvr will decide the outcome

if jft really got sd-10b than probably it would either have to get aim 120d or there is no missile in russian inventory even remotely close to sd-10b

RVV-AE-SD outranges everything else... including AIM120D

 

[Mav3rick]

Did you even understand what was said earlier ?

I gave you an rough account of the advantages the BARS have over KLJ-7.
But since it has gone over your head once again... and as expected... you'll get a lot more surprises but that.
How does the JF-17 launch a Aim120 ??...

You can't go... you don't know a jack about that... Its plain and simple from your posts and your understanding about radars.
The EW suit on a few Su30MKI of IAF is capable enough to provide escort jamming capabilities and barrage jamming features which can Blind multiple radars like KLJ-7 on a Half dozen JF-17 type aircrafts... you haven't even seen the tip yet.. the elta 8882 is just a small example... even Mig29UPGs would have a wide array of ECM and Jamming devices most notably absent on Jf-17.

Good for you why wasting the time on this thread and declaring the forum administration stupid as for running such a thread.

That was a typing error.
Doesn't mean PAF are the only ones... we are talking of Singapore Airforce Half a dozen or even more pilots with over 2000hrs experience on F-16... and many more with 1000+hrs.. not to mention the friendly support the IDF has been giving on crucial inputs about EW devices and other electronics equipment meant to beat with good overall evaluations of F-16 and later blocks.

All types of Su27 and Su30 are not Su30MKI but can we expect your stupid brain to understand

As I said earlier IAF doesn't upgrade its equipment based on what Pakistan and China does... and Its good that PAF is sitting quiet and relaxed... for the IAF.

It is not Pakistan here.... have a good time with all the piss and **** you swallow daily there.
You made a lot of sense here... perhaps the standard brain of a general Pakistani... you cannot be blamed for that.

16 were not BVR shots.
Only If you can read.... Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s

You keep on wondering... with that (no we cannot call that brain)... of yours.

No the temple where you guys perform SATI rituals!!

Actually.....did you??

You are exactly right about the first part......that your account of advantages of BARS was rough, indeed!

Would you ask me how the JF-17 starts its engines next????

It's apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other so lets just leave this argument! Otherwise I will continue to claim how JFT is actually a threat to MKI even 1 on 1 and you would continue to claim otherwise, no point really.

Again, lets just quit as I cannot repeat how much more direct access PAF has to SU-27's and SU-30's including those SU-30's that are closest to MKI's. I mean what else is there as PAF pilots have flown these Jets on multiple occasions unlike IAF that could have only looked at the F's on the ground and to spot the F's behind in the air!

Anyway, you eventually forced me to stoop to your level. I cannot compete with you at at your level though.

 

[Yeti]

Actually.....did you??

You are exactly right about the first part......that your account of advantages of BARS was rough, indeed!

Would you ask me how the JF-17 starts its engines next????

It's apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other so lets just leave this argument! Otherwise I will continue to claim how JFT is actually a threat to MKI even 1 on 1 and you would continue to claim otherwise, no point really.

Again, lets just quit as I cannot repeat how much more direct access PAF has to SU-27's and SU-30's including those SU-30's that are closest to MKI's. I mean what else is there as PAF pilots have flown these Jets on multiple occasions unlike IAF that could have only looked at the F's on the ground and to spot the F's behind in the air!

Anyway, you eventually forced me to stoop to your level. I cannot compete with you at at your level though.

Indian pilots have flown the f16 many times

 

[Mav3rick]

I don't want to spoil the Belief some people have over their PAF... and Its BVR capability but too much ranting that we are prepared and relax and don't need to worry etc..etc.. is not what your beloved PAF thinks thats why they pushed for BVR induction... after a Gap of over 10years behind inferior to IAF in this regard and you people say they are relaxed.. how shameful you don't even appreciate the effort.

Here another ace up sleeve IAF EW capabilities.

Other than this there are also IR and EO versions too.

The person you are 'NOT' quoting has repeatedly told you and still failed to get the point across that you may just as well be flying with a water gun instead of Russian BVR's, that's how effective they are. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised if the WVR missiles of Russian origin performed only marginally better then the American ones from the 60's.

 

[Mav3rick]

@Mav3rick :


1. RCS doesn't matter in 4th gen warfare, No matter how low or huge the RCS is.
2. In same generation fighterplane AAMs can't guarentee sure kill... In one incident F16 and MiG25 exchanged 10 Missiles without scoring a single kill.
3. F15 has massive RCS still its unbeatable.
4. Bigger plane means more space, more avionics , more weapons.
5. Small plane can have advantage of agility, but that count only in WVR scenario.

JF17 is not even matured to call 4th gen fighter (even accepted by Pakistani think thanks), Its still evolving. Su30 MKI is 4+ gen fighter. For sure MKI has all advantage over FC1. Please don't bring one generation below fighter to counter MKI.

In one of my post in this thread I have posted an line about MKI "Team red (USAF) paid heavy price by pitching low end fighter against MKI". Trust me USAF low end fighters are better than PAF high end fighters....

The only thing can counter a heavy fighter is is heavy fighter or SAMs...

1) WTH?? Why not??
2) As the generation of fighters progress, so does that of the Missiles.
3) Only because it faces Russian Junk, let it fight it out against a Rafale or a Typhoon without aids (such as AWEACS) and then we will see.
4) Brings us back to point 1, also means massive RCS.
5) Even planes without powerful radars can be guided by AWEACS systems for missile launch.

Lol.....JFT is beyond Gen4 let alone a gen behind it. And 4+ or 4.9 is still not 5th Gen. Your MKI would face stiff resistance from JFT's, especially those that are aided by AWEACS, SAMS and other ground based EW assets.

Super 30 upgrade is on the cards in the future that will give us a upgraded pilot cockpit, new radar and several structural elements enhancing the jet’s stealth features that make it less visible to the enemy.

272 of these beasts is enough to face any threat the sheer numbers we have linked to the Phalcon AWACS which we will order more of is enough to deter anyone.

Also if PAF enters Indian airspace it will also have to face the threat of SPYDER missile system.

I don't believe PAF would have plans to enter Indian Airspace. But within Pakistani air space, PAF is quite capable of holding its ground.

Kashmir, Longewala, etc. Don't even try to deny the fact that Pakistan has "invaded" without air cover on at least 2 major occassi

Is that what he said in his post?

By the way, Kashmir is a part of Pakistan that is under illegal occupation