How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[dbc]

Ah Kathy,

Happy new year and BTW why are you forgetting the same can be done by the Indian side using the Mirage 2k and the MiG 29 with the AS-31 and the KH-55 against their SAAB...and the Indian Radars far out range all the Radars in the Pakistani arsenal...the Phalcon flying a little inside can still see whats happening inside the Pakistani territory but the Erieye cant do that.

Above all it is the aircraft's radar that is going to guide the missile not the AWACS radar.

Hello and a happy a new year to you too.I'm Kathy's husband, Kathy's busy with our beautiful baby girl. I sometimes log in using her account. PAF know they don't have the territorial depth to protect their airborne radar and they train to be almost as effective without it. As for what the Phalcon can see, the problem is the Phalcon sees too much. I admit I don't know much about the Phalcon but I assume it is as good or better than the USAF E3.

 

[dbc]

If I was suggesting the most stupid scenario to you, I doubt you will address me as sir. The members suggestion was idiotic and I called a spade a spade. I would have post counter arguments if his/her post would have deserved it.

War is dirty business kid and if you don't believe me google "The CIA saboteurs handbook" the edition used during WW II was recently declassified. I'm sure the latest edition is a million times nastier. Don't expect the enemy to fight fair and the best way to loose a fight is to go into it thinking you can't be beaten.

 

[danger007]

I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.

Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.

well you are considering surprise attack from PAF on IAF bases only? i am glad you are not talking any thing related to title...
so you are saying our awacs is useless against JF-17? ....

 

[Mav3rick]

Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be.

The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)

There is as yet no confirmation on the J-10's procurement. And if there is any additional procurement, it would only be to ensure that the aging fleet of Mirages and F-7 family are retired as soon as possible.

Now to your next para, in a dog fight 1:1 without external aids and with their individual radars and weapons......assuming that both the pilots have had identical flying hours on their respective Jets.....which would hold a distinct advantage over the other in a BVR engagement and then a WVR engagement? Is not 'Air Superiority' the primary designated role of both these fighters?

Because you don't know Air-warfare and You don't have comprehensive Skills

To your primitive little excuse of a brain, that must seem the correct answer!

 

[Mav3rick]

Actually BVR capable means ability of the aircraft to perform BVR warfare, Since you don't have BVR missiles, you can't perform BVR warfare. So shut up. Your mirages are still just WVR and they will fall an easy prey to our plethora of BVR capable aircraft.

Actually NO!

BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!

Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.

That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.

Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.

 

[Mav3rick]

i will not say incorrect to u..
well as u said medium range missile...
while BVR=beyond visual range.....
medium range missile isnot beyoun visual range....
and It is clear from PAF official statements that PAF got BVR capability with induction of JF 17 means Mairages were not BVR capable....

You do realize that F-16's Block 52 were delivered with AIM-120C7 before SD-10 was integrated into JFT right? I hope you understand where I am going with this! And please, for the love of God, go and read up on the ROSE upgrades on Mirages before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

There is as yet no confirmation on the J-10's procurement. And if there is any additional procurement, it would only be to ensure that the aging fleet of Mirages and F-7 family are retired as soon as possible.

Now to your next para, in a dog fight 1:1 without external aids and with their individual radars and weapons......assuming that both the pilots have had identical flying hours on their respective Jets.....which would hold a distinct advantage over the other in a BVR engagement and then a WVR engagement? Is not 'Air Superiority' the primary designated role of both these fighters?



To your primitive little excuse of a brain, that must seem the correct answer!

in 1 vs 1 fight I don't see f16 or Jf17 having a good chance of winning..but if mki is over pak territory and challenged with multiple platforms like Sam,awac support, interceptors etc then it certainly is vulnerable..Ever seen how lions bring down a wild buffalo?

 

[danger007]

Actually NO!

BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!



That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.

Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.

doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?

 

[Mav3rick]

There is no fire and forget for the Aim120C5 If the F-16 turns away just after the launch.

And why should we be bothered by what the AIM-120C5 has? It is the AIM-120C7 that PAF possess as well as SD-10.

However when we talk about RVV-AE/RVV-AE-SD on a Su30MKI... It is a different thing... with the rear facing radar and much wider coverage the the main radar alone... which supports multiple engagements much easily done well within upto 120 degree arc.

Besides that It is not necessary that Russian AAMs are good at Kinematics and US AMMs good at Electronics... for instance RVV-SD is mch better than Aim120C5 in electronics however inferior to Aim120D in kinematics... thanks to the dual-pulse rocket motors... similarly R-73M/74 is a far superior missile as compared with Aim9L/M which PAF fields.

Far superior as in that IAF fields it? Because the fights b/w American and Russian Jets with their respective Missiles speaks volumes of the 'superiority' of Russian weapons

 

[Mav3rick]

in 1 vs 1 fight I don't see f16 or Jf17 having a good chance of winning..but if mki is over pak territory and challenged with multiple platforms like Sam,awac support, interceptors etc then it certainly is vulnerable..Ever seen how lions bring down a wild buffalo?

I meant a 1:1 b/w Rafale & MKI.

doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?

Ofcourse it would and I am sure a lot more effectively then PAF AWACS assets. But you are negating the fact that PAF AWACS will be designated to defend PAF Air space which they can do effectively 100's of km's away from the border, out of range of your fighters and Phalcons EW.

 

[DARKY]

And why should we be bothered by what the AIM-120C5 has? It is the AIM-120C7 that PAF possess as well as SD-10.

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)

$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s

Far superior as in that IAF fields it? Because the fights b/w American and Russian Jets with their respective Missiles speaks volumes of the 'superiority' of Russian weapons

Only If that can get in your Head... read about those engagements before making ridiculous statements.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I meant a 1:1 b/w Rafale & MKI.

then I would go with rafale

 

[Storm Force]

Mav3rick

Your comment re SINGPORE PILOTS being amaretish is rich coming from a pakistani paf fan boy.

PAF can only dream about the level of technology and training that is avialble to singpore air force pilots. They have military budget per pilot that is ten fold of the average PAF pilot.

I suggest you check the AIRFORCE faxciklities and planes and hardware abnd compare. BELIEVE the singpore air force do not fly MIRAGE from the 1970S OR F7s as per average PAF pilot.

BY THE WAY IAF uses israeli jammers from ELTA NOT RUSSIAN.

CHECK YOUR FACTS.

and finally

since awarding RAFALE THE MMRCA contract india have signed for a further 42 su30mki . SO youir comments about MKI being deemed russian crap is also way off the mark

ANY MORE COMMENTS im all ears

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Hello and a happy a new year to you too.I'm Kathy's husband, Kathy's busy with our beautiful baby girl. I sometimes log in using her account. PAF know they don't have the territorial depth to protect their airborne radar and they train to be almost as effective without it. As for what the Phalcon can see, the problem is the Phalcon sees too much. I admit I don't know much about the Phalcon but I assume it is as good or better than the USAF E3.

Regards to all of you in your family and Congrats on your baby girl! The Phalcon is as good as the E3 of 2005 but as they say "You will never know what the Americans bring to the war till you fight them."

 

[MilSpec]

I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.

Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.

And for some odd reason, the exact opposite is inconceivable, right?