How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Mav3rick]

IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.

Yes but the award has yet to be awarded.....deliveries and training is a matter in some distance too. You will see swift reaction from our side once acquisition begins.

Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
No It won't.
Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.

Lol.....you like repeating nonsense.
Yes it will, probably even sooner.
All that are in service and more.
Google
Spada is the tip of the iceberg.

Why don't you show your research ?

And invest time, on you?? Why don't you do a bit of research, for your own self?

It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.

Right!! Do you, even yourself believe that?

How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.

Reading Wiki again? Anyway, the Russian Jammers are crap, all that you can rely on are some Israeli Jammers (not available on all MKI's).

You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.

I did, but still cannot find any such encounter where the MKI had supposedly completed it's mission before being 'escorted' out

multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.

I am saying that there has never been a Russian BVR kill!!! Not a single one! How's that my friend? I am also saying that the Russians rely on missile salvos because their missiles are not reliable enough for a single shot single kill probability or any probability above 0.7, They have to usually fire 4 missiles for a probability kill of 0.8 or greater. The Americans achieve that probability with a single Missile!

I gave the links some post ago.
It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).

I found no such link, not only that....I couldn't find any confirmed kills of any Russian BVR Missile anywhere!

Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.

There would be no restrictions on use of F-16's if a war is thrust upon us. That's all that matters.

 

[Muradk]

JF-17 is not designed to take on MKI's. Agreed.

However, in a conflict, JF-17 will ultimately have to take on the MKI's.

Hence, a comparison is in order.

May be you are right JF-17 might have to go against MKI's but have you guys ever thought there is a very simple way to take MKI's down. If I had one of those babies behind me drop down to 200 AGL and let the Subedar-Major take care of it with a Man-portable air-defense systems simple. Just because you are in a Fighter doesn't mean you have to go head to head. New Warfare or Art of war has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
I have seen one of those simulations they are pretty good 80% of the fighters who entered the 20 mile radius called the CIRCLE were shot down by the ground forces and it showed that the enemy fighter were so distracted by the ground forces that the hunter became the hunted, When the pilot entered the RED ZONE the CIRCLE he quickly went on the offensive and was taken down. Plan old tactics 2 fighter go into enemy Air Space finger them and lower then into the CIRCLE. You can do it only once the enemy will not fall for it again so you move your position. Ironic how ground forces needed Air power and now Air power needs ground forces.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

You got to remember the SU-30 the Chinese have is a whole diffrent kind of bird to mki in many respects so you can't say it is a fact when you have not faced the mki until that happens nothing is certain.


One example is the Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft

tell me are their RCS same , if su-30 would have been stealthy it would surely have been a threat , but now it is not that much threat to us , our jets can easily detect it from about 100km away that,s what they need ... in battle they will need range of 50 km or little more


jammer doesn't guarantee that your jet is secure , work has been done on it , and we have advance quality anti jamming pods from china , remember china too have access to this technology

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

once again , su-30 mki is very good fighter of its class but dear it,s not invincible for us , so plz come out of extreme euphoria

 

[karan.1970]

It's not the nationalities that I have a problem with, honestly. You wouldn't believe the number of close Indian friends I have. It's the continuous lies and propaganda that sort of puts me off some of you guys as if anything could have been achieved alone. I'd much rather we all stay real.

Its a load of hogwash mate.. Let me rewrite what you posted..

Especially when some cheap, used up excuse of a country claims victory while the actual victor stays on the side lines!

If thats not abusing nationalities, then surely you are not able to express what you want to say.

I could as easily have abused Pakistan and trust me, there are a bunch of more backable adjectives that I can pull up for your country, but meh, wont make much of a difference...

 

[EzioAltaïr]

That may be the answer to Indian acquisition of Rafale (if it does indeed materialize in this decade!). Answer to MKI is our JF-17! As a purely defensive power (atleast initially while the numerical odds are in favor of the opposition), JF-17's would be complemented by AWEACS & SAM Systems as well as ground based EW/ECM/ECCM systems.

As the Indians boast of the actual power of the BARS radar on MKI's and it's classified performance, the performance of radars on JF-17's is also highly classified and so are the problems of both of these systems.....well atleast the problems of JF-17's radar, if any, are yet classified unlike those of SU-30MKI's that were evaluated and rejected by the Chinese!! No wonder IAF is in such a rush to upgrade the Radars on their MKI's.

Also, note the performance of Russian Jammers on their jets in the Russia/Georgia war in which the Russians were unable to jam their own SAM systems!! No wonder the Chinese have to further advance and modify almost all their acquisitions as most are unreliable. Only the Jets with Israeli pods hold threat, others hardly any jamming worth another look. And I will not even bother to write about the Indian pods!

It's yet no wonder still that the Russian Jets have to carry so many AA missiles whilst the opposition is considerably satisfied with half that on their fighters. Furthermore, is there a single example of a Russian BVR score........the icing here is that the PAF had always been aware of the poor performance of Russian BVR missiles and hence their comfort in not acquiring it until the purchase of AIM-120C5! And the whole world is aware of the ratio of Jets downed in head to head contests.

Really? JF-17 vs Su 30 MKI?

And what makes you think the Bars is inferior to the KLJ-7? The Bars can track while scan 15 targets, engage four of 'em simultaneously. The KLJ can TWS 10 targets and engage 2. And you just see the range, to figure out which one is superior.

And we don't even use the Russian jammers, we use Indian ones.

And the JF-17 can't use AIM 120s AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong here. The only PAF plane that has AMRAAMs, is F-16 right?

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

Some Southies (South Asians) are getting hot, heavy & puerile on this topic and straying farther from the facts.

So here is my FACT CHECK.

-"USA will not give you spares in a war scenario" - Did not realize Victoria Nuland had a new assistant. If I was an Indian trying to psyche out the Paks, I would fret more over Indian feet-dragging over CISMOA and Interoperability issues.

-Some over-enthusiastic guy mentioned AESA & Su-30 MKI (NATO CS: Flanker). Not true, it is a PESA.

-Someone said AMRAAM Aim-120C5 is retired?- 120C5 is a very potent weapon system and part of US inventories. If I was a Flanker flyboy packing AMRAAMSKIs, I would not like it if someone fired a live Aim-120C5 at me....make for a bad day!

-"At Red Flag we did not use our Main Radar or our Data Link " - Why? The Su-30 has the same radar as Malay Su-30MKMs, Algerian Su-30 MKAs. Anyone can fingerprint their signatures. In fact the french sent their Rafales to RED fLAG to snoop on your Flankers. Ironic huh? BTW how is you Flanker Data Link working with Israeli radars?

-Now for the other side. There is a video on 'The Aviationist.com' of a Typhoon cleaning a Viper's clock in DACT WVR. That is in direct response to PAF bragging about Typhoon shots. I am interested in what PAF pilots have to say about that..?


Back on Topic:

Best antidote for Su-30MKI is another Flanker. It could be a advanced chinese re-interpretation of the Flanker as in J11B or J15 or some such iteration. PAF would not have to buy in numbers but a modest amount as AGGRESSOR squadron and give it to ...what used to be called CCS or some such thing.

If the Great Kayani actually has developed an understanding with Comrade Putin, then maybe Pakistan can get 6-18 Su-35 SuperFlankers with 117s and AESA radars. Such a training tool is priceless and will send a chill down the enemy's spine.......

Another solution is to negotiate with incoming Secy of State, and nag him about giving a few more Vipers with "V" upgrades. Taiwan is getting them as the first foreign customer.

Another option is to take a billion or so dollars out of JF-17\FC-1 program and begin a staggered purchase of Typhoons; six a-piece at a time.

Of course, I would sit tight till Indians wrap the French deal first.

My BEST solution is to use the money to establish enduring infrastructural links like highway, railroads, pipelines and power-lines with Central Asian region. If global commerce comes to depend on Pakistan as the major conduit for stability and prosperity of countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Azeri republic then extremely powerful forces will come into play to neutralize any Flanker threats........

Peace be upon all on this happy day!

 

[drunken-monke]

May be you are right JF-17 might have to go against MKI's but have you guys ever thought there is a very simple way to take MKI's down. If I had one of those babies behind me drop down to 200 AGL and let the Subedar-Major take care of it with a Man-portable air-defense systems simple. Just because you are in a Fighter doesn't mean you have to go head to head. New Warfare or Art of war has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
I have seen one of those simulations they are pretty good 80% of the fighters who entered the 20 mile radius called the CIRCLE were shot down by the ground forces and it showed that the enemy fighter were so distracted by the ground forces that the hunter became the hunted, When the pilot entered the RED ZONE the CIRCLE he quickly went on the offensive and was taken down. Plan old tactics 2 fighter go into enemy Air Space finger them and lower then into the CIRCLE. You can do it only once the enemy will not fall for it again so you move your position. Ironic how ground forces needed Air power and now Air power needs ground forces.

Dear Sir,

How is your health... Its been quite a long since last time had you on the forum..

Sir, all this talk about the RCS of MKI, but how good the missiles of PAF will be against EW of IAF... Are there any counter measures to deny jamming of radars with PAF..

Thanks in advance for the answer..

 

[rockstarIN]

-"At Red Flag we did not use our Main Radar or our Data Link " - Why? The Su-30 has the same radar as Malay Su-30MKMs, Algerian Su-30 MKAs. Anyone can fingerprint their signatures. In fact the french sent their Rafales to RED fLAG to snoop on your Flankers. Ironic huh? BTW how is you Flanker Data Link working with Israeli radars?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2Fze2qJ32

I do not know that Algerians or Malaysians came to Red flag. I do not think so. The BARS Radar was in training mode and the possible use of some technology in PAK FA, we did not use it. We knew that Rafales were always tailing MKIs during Red flag, it is understandable that this was the first time MKIs going out to meet them. After all, all these excercises are great experiences.

All our jets use our own data link, including MKI. So they were not connected to the western AWACS. Also we use Israli radars only only navy fighter jets now.

y BEST solution is to use the money to establish enduring infrastructural links like highway, railroads, pipelines and power-lines with Central Asian region. If global commerce comes to depend on Pakistan as the major conduit for stability and prosperity of countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Azeri republic then extremely powerful forces will come into play to neutralize any Flanker threats........

Peace be upon all on this happy day!

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2Fzg54hJO

Thats excellent, but we already constructed a good road across Afganistan and financing a port at Iran to connect it. So we can do business without their help.

 

[Storm Force]

India signs for 42 more SU30MKI kits today

BBC News - India, Russia sign new defence deals

This confirms the latest batch ordered TAKING su30mki nos to 270 fighters by 2017

That is a lot of firepower and HUGE TRUST in this machine which has been in service for a decade now.

coming back to the thread can we please stick to REALISTIC options this talk of J20/J31 is not happening

PAF has 2 options

MORE F16s bock 52S (18 additonal on the table) I ASK WHAT YOU WAITING FOR 70% OF YOU SWEAR by the F16/52 being the best counter to MKI...

and

FC20/J10 = Again where is PAF with this deal ?????THE fighter has been flying in PLAAF since 2005 and the MKI threat is now massive 150+ AND FRM above BBC news is growing even bigger WITH 42 MORE KITS ORDERED for assembly in india

 

[wakapdf]

In this age of BVRs, our JF17s are more than capable of taking care of Su30MKIs. No need to waste money on American tech that comes with warnings and strings attached. I say invest in jf17 block 1 and hopefully 2 variant. These beauties will blow Su30 out of the sky

 

[MilSpec]

FC20/J10 = Again where is PAF with this deal ?????THE fighter has been flying in PLAAF since 2005 and the MKI threat is now massive 150+ AND FRM above BBC news is growing even bigger WITH 42 MORE KITS ORDERED for assembly in india

Will happen when PAF deems the right time, or we might see a completely new fighter LWF new gen fighter custom built for PAF closely based on the j20/31 design aspects

In this age of BVRs, our JF17s are more than capable of taking care of Su30MKIs. No need to waste money on American tech that comes with warnings and strings attached. I say invest in jf17 block 1 and hopefully 2 variant. These beauties will blow Su30 out of the sky

It's not just about defensive attributes of countering MKi but also offensive capabilities without AWACS cover to deep into the indian territory.

 

[wakapdf]

It's not just about defensive attributes of countering MKi but also offensive capabilities without AWACS cover to deep into the indian territory.

We dont need to counter MKIs in Indian territory. Our doctrine is defensive based. ''Dont come in our air-space or we will shoot you down''. No plans to enter deep into Indian airspace. For that we have missiles...

 

[MilSpec]

We dont need to counter MKIs in Indian territory. Our doctrine is defensive based. ''Dont come in our air-space or we will shoot you down''. No plans to enter deep into Indian airspace. For that we have missiles...

If that rhetoric is shared by your military... good for you...

 

[Storm Force]

Sandy

Will happen when PAF deems the right time, or we might see a completely new fighter LWF new gen fighter custom built for PAF closely based on the j20/31 design aspects



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2G01uAiak

Whislt PAF wait for this LWF based on J20 (10 YEARS) WHO TACKLES 270 SU30MKI ????

The threat is here TODAY not 2020 WHEN RAFALE & FGFA have arrived