How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? These machines are huge, the mobility/agility can be lesser (which some may disagree) than small fighter...

The Objective of Huge fighters (F15, Su27, MiG31) is, kill them before they know who kill them.. You see the track record of F15, instead of having RCS of 15m2 they never get caught by any Mig...

why don't u try to realize that we are very close and long range fighter is not gona be effective , whats the distance between lahore and dehli ? to engage 1st your su-30;s need to cross border ... max combat distance before missile launch will be 50 km or so , here 100 plus km BVRs aren't gona be that much effective ... effective range will be reduced to 50 km , here su;30 is gona loose that very advantage

 

[Yeti]

i has discussion with two GDPs , one flying f-16 and other f-7 ...
one have experience with chinese su-30s ,
u need to realize these facts , that u aren't ready to realize ...

You got to remember the SU-30 the Chinese have is a whole diffrent kind of bird to mki in many respects so you can't say it is a fact when you have not faced the mki until that happens nothing is certain.


One example is the Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft

 

[notorious_eagle]

What evaluation did the mature pilots perform ? what western suits were used in the evaluation against the Chinese ones ? you saying as If the PAF has open market for both west and Chinese Electronics which is hardly the case.
ECMs and Jammers evolve through time on the data engineers obtain from various exercise and conflicts and develop upon their EW capabilities.... and we talking of China here.

So i was right, you just pulled that comment out of your a**. You have zero knowledge on China's EW capabilities as i predicted. Compare how much resources China is spending on its aviation budget with that off Russia and EU combined, you will find out how much serious they are regarding electronic warfare. As far as PAF access regarding Western tech is concerned, they have had access to Western tech for the last 60 years while India is the new kid on the block.

Why not search about yourself.

Since you made this audacious claim, you have to prove it not me. If you can't back up your words with actions, than better not debate.

Why do you bother me I am tried of you leading to nowhere baby cry and pointless post.

I agree, i feel like a moron. I thought you matured with time since not long ago you claimed that super duper brahmos cannot be detected by an AESA radar and Pakistani people will welcome Indian invaders. But clearly i was wrong.

And the usual rant...
F-16 were hardly used against Su30 in one on one engagements It was against F-15.
Besides Su30 is the BAAP of F-16 sooner you swallow that the better for you.

Go through the link i posted, SU30MKI went up against both F16's and F15's. As far as SU30 being the baap of F16 is concerned, last i remember it was the F16 which locked on the SU30MKI and not the other way around . If your so confident, cross over the border and find it who the baap is.

 

[ziaulislam]

well
in 65 u had enough time to recover
in 71 india simply helped an already nearly sucessful rebellion, india didnt acheived any significant gains on the western front, it should have gained its disputed area of kashmir and northern areas but it didnt..its a pretty no gain for india type situation..


i was talking of airforces ..if u are keen historian u will know that in both 71 and 65 PAF had an upper hand over IAF..even on the eastern front..

and india used all of its fire power against us in 65 and 71..

 

[Yeti]

Notorious eagle how can you say they beat us when the bars radar was not even switched on?

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120323/172357523.html


The Chinese version of SU-30 is very much diffrent to mki that is why Russia is ordering this version,

The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

The “Chinese” line is based on a different logic that prescribes parallel installation of new systems that fall short of full integration.

Most likely, the military is attracted by how easy it is to add different weapons and equipment to the Su-30MKI, transforming it into an attack fighter-bomber, a heavy interceptor aircraft, or something else.

 

[DARKY]

So i was right, you just pulled that comment out of your a**. You have zero knowledge on China's EW capabilities as i predicted. Compare how much resources China is spending on its aviation budget with that off Russia and EU combined, you will find out how much serious they are regarding electronic warfare. As far as PAF access regarding Western tech is concerned, they have had access to Western tech for the last 60 years while India is the new kid on the block.

Usual cursing and and use of derogatory words no wonder after all you are the think tank here I guess It goes the similar way among Pakistanis and their country.
Now since I don't know any thing.. why don't you tell use what you know about the Chinese Jammers and ECM... their stand off jamming capability and self protection jamming suits.
PAF was given grants they are still given grants having access to something and obtaining grants are two different things.
India has its own electronic Industry which works in collaboration with best in the world.

Since you made this audacious claim, you have to prove it not me. If you can't back up your words with actions, than better not debate.

This must be funny for isn't it ?
Quarrels over the Border «
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victories-iraq-gulf.war.pdf

I agree, i feel like a moron. I thought you matured with time since not long ago you claimed that super duper brahmos cannot be detected by an AESA radar and Pakistani people will welcome Indian invaders. But clearly i was wrong.

Yes you were the moron who claimed that the IR signature of Brahmos could be detected by your AWACS.. you still doing research on that ?

Go through the link i posted, SU30MKI went up against both F16's and F15's. As far as SU30 being the baap of F16 is concerned, last i remember it was the F16 which locked on the SU30MKI and not the other way around . If your so confident, cross over the border and find it who the baap is.

I had a detailed argument over this with Santro in the past.. you can look for the post.
Can you show us the source which says about F-16 locking Su30 in the last engagement they had ? any image or picture ?

And they usually do cross over don't they ?.. sometime the baap knows about the intruders and scrambles other times you don't even know.

 

[DARKY]

Notorious eagle how can you say they beat us when the bars radar was not even switched on?

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia

Besides that there was no AWACS support inspite of that they did score kills and did well but who can explain that to the think tanks here.

 

[Yeti]

Besides that there was no AWACS support inspite of that they did score kills and did well but who can explain that to the think tanks here.

I know and I said that on a previous post hence why we had so many blue on blue, now just think how diffrent it would be in a real life war scenario where we would be using our phalcon radars (which btw China wanted but could not get) as well as the bars on the mki it is a whole diffrent ball game.

 

[Mav3rick]

There aren't any J-10B coming as of now.... you've had enough BS on this here on the forum.

Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.

You are trying to compare a large aperture(990mm) and highly powerful(7-10KW) Phased array radar with a small sized(660mm) and low powered(550W) slotted planer array... there can't be any competition here since both of them are of different generation even If you make either of them super classified.

If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.

The Chinese were never offered BARS... It must be noted that they are yet to demonstrate a fully functional fighter borne Phased array radar.

Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?

If IAF is going for an Upgrade on Radars its keeping up with the latest development among the best militaries around the world.. they are building a 1st class air force and that has got nothing to do with what Pakistan or China are doing or having... in simple words If PAF is still relying on primitive technology doesn't mean the rest of world has to do the same.

The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.

Electronic Jamming is a cat and mouse game... Georgia was the dumping ground for old soviet weaponry new jammers and ECMs were hardly used... specially the SAP-14 and SAP-518 stand off jamming and ECM pods which can be used only by Su30MKI and Su35 version in the RuAF... the newly inducted su34 is being currently integrated with those ECM and Jamming pods.

Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.

By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.

Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce... must be the reason we are yet to see them in any country outside China... there have been interesting encounters between PLAAF Su27/J-11 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as PLA S-300/HQ-9 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as the Chinese Destroyer Type52C and Su30MKI... and I won't give the outcome here as to trigger troll attack by the CCP brigade... however I would like to mention that most of time the results were satisfying... mainly due to the training and superior tactics by IAF Chinese can any day say that in the Su30MKI was forced to return but by then It had done its job.

Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.

Multiple AAM ensure Higher chances of kill... even French have Mica with different seekers... while the USAF also used AIM-7 along with AIM-120... Chinese too use a mix of R-27(different version), R-77, SD-10 and other missiles... something dissimilar to what you have been saying about PAF... doesn't mean rest of the world must not If PAF can't.

All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.

Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.

Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.

I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere!

And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's

SU 30MKI is a twin engine flight.

1. if one engine damaged then with other it can manage, this is not the case with jf 17.
2. The forieng object damage is a big problem in jf 17. so the paf air force will have too many deaths due to single engine failure.

If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.

 

[Mav3rick]

Lets say its enough information for now.

BTW Sapada-2000 MR-SAM, is already operational with PAF.

Spada is not the cream of our Military SAM systems

Do you know what is?

I doubt the bold part....

As do I....the MKI doesn't stand a chance against the F-16's Block 50 and above.

They found the same problem the IAF did. So its naive to assume that it was not fixed.

Ofcourse, if you have read the Jane's article on the topic, they follow the same official line as the chinese government which is to do with aircraft performance and incompatibilty than radar problems.

But my query, was more related to how radar will determine tactics and wouldn't it be a major decision factor?

It's not so much of a problem as in a shortcoming and yes IAF is addressing that shortcoming, by replacing the Radar but that will take some time. The Chinese gave the same excuse any strategic partner would have given, they wouldn't have disclosed the short comings to the world.....but to a long standing ally, well that's a different case

 

[Mav3rick]

+

Most of the time bisons remained invisible from the radars of teens

Most likely because they kept getting shot down even before they got a chance to get up there

 

[Mav3rick]

The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? These machines are huge, the mobility/agility can be lesser (which some may disagree) than small fighter...

The Objective of Huge fighters (F15, Su27, MiG31) is, kill them before they know who kill them.. You see the track record of F15, instead of having RCS of 15m2 they never get caught by any Mig...

F-15's never got caught by any Mig or Sukhoi because of the inferior quality of Russian Jets/Equipment as compared to American Jets/Equipment. It's that simple.

Good explanation... but there are some glitch
1. In 65 India was in bad shape (due to chinese attack,) our defence was weak, very weak. Ur generals saw it opportunity and mounted Operation Gibraltor. You had newer weapons from USA , Still we had good fight.
2. In 71 , ask your generals what happened.. They can either lie or hide there face.

In any war India never used entire airforce against PAF... Even in future (god forbid) India will use selective squadron against PAF, not entire 230 odd MKI...


We will not fight "World War III" with you....

1. China/India war in 1962 was but a small battle, you cannot take that as an excuse.
2. We did ask them and they told us to ask the same of Mujeeb who said the Indians were hiding behind while the mukti bahini were taking hits.

 

[SQ8]

The 2 operators and the range part are very valid arguments. The ability to surprise an enemy from a different path is as good as stealth (ok now please nobody say I am saying MKI has stealth.)

But, don't you think, that radars of the aircrafts also play an important role? Have read all sorts of stuff on the radar on board the MKI, but, none on what its actual capabilities maybe. Isn't this a more dangerous point, since, its not known (or maybe just not known in the public domain)?

Another point I keep hearing is that an MKI may direct other fighters with the help of its radar to a target? Will this not be a tactical advantage? But, then again, will not this be useful only in the interception phase, since then you are flying over your own turf. Another point may be that the planes may be detected by an Airborne Sytem across the border. So how does this come into play? If they were on an offensive mission they may anyway get detected by ground based radar?

radar's do play a critical role, but their employment strategy is also relevant.
The MKI's radar is a powerhouse...and with the AESA should be able to see pretty much everything and provide the IAF an excellent picture in lieu of AEW. However, in terms of engagement range.. the Radar provides a lesser advantage since the proximity of bases and the weapon ranges along with both sides having an integrated C4I system leaves that radar capability providing a lesser advantage as compared to say the eastern front.

 

[DARKY]

Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.

IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.

If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.

Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
No It won't.
Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.

Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?

Why don't you show your research ?

The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.

It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.

Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.

By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.

How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.

Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.

You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.

All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.

multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.

I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere!

I gave the links some post ago.
It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).

And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's

Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.



If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.

IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.

If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.

Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
No It won't.
Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.

Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?

Why don't you show your research ?

The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.

It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.

Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.

By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.

How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.

Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.

You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.

All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.

multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.

I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere!

I gave the links some post ago.
It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).

And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's

Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.



If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.[/QUOTE]

 

[Manticore]

Stop personal attacks and off topic posting