How Kashmir was stolen from Pakistan by Mountbatten

[Screambowl]

Sad. Indeed Sad. How else do one describe our reaction, whenever faced with historic facts.



Fear ? .... Why, it was pure barbarism on both side of the fence. Fear does not make you kill innocent's... Only hatred does.


Point here is not about mass hysteria. But why did the system fail the very people who had voted for the modern day Nepo?... A society which failed its citizen's is no society.


So what do you suggest ? .... Obliterate whom so ever we hate? ... Parry those who are too weak to fight for his right in our republic?


Does it not bother you .... when we complain about corruption in our society, high handedness of our police men, no social welfare ... yet, we covet this very same people when they violate our constitution to serve their own flavor of Justice to the riot victims ?.... Should'nt we be ashamed of saying "Dont expect Sugar for Poison" to our fellow citizens who were killed just because you and me never stood up for them, we stood silent and watched this butchers dream of becoming Prime Minister of our Country. We expect to be treated fair. But we wont afford same to our minorities?

We need to ashamed, Sir, not vindictive.

I was expecting an answer from Pakistani member, but no one replied, And ultimately, it is the secularism in India which has come up again. I hope After this Live example, of how Extremism cannot prevail in India, Pakistanis will not doubt or have any misconception against India.

And meanwhile, I am not an extremist lol.

Learn from history, but bear in mind that the Sins of the Fathers are not the Sins of the Sons.

In this case, Muslim victims were in all likelihood not even descendants of the invaders.

One should be clear-eyed, however, about the pernicious effects of indoctrination into misguided ideologies.

I am very much aware of the facts, more than you. But as always, None of the Pakistani member could reply to what I have said. And It was in comparison to the ideology of Pakistan and India. Even I know that many Muslims remained in India after 47.

 

[Panjabi Tiger]

The kashmiris people from the kashmir valley are really similar to pakistanis, kashmir valley belongs to pakistan for me there is no doubt.
Kashmir is a region, an ethnicity , a different culture, an identity
They deserve a referendum

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was expecting an answer from Pakistani member, but no one replied, And ultimately, it is the secularism in India which has come up again. I hope After this Live example, of how Extremism cannot prevail in India, Pakistanis will not doubt or have any misconception against India.

And meanwhile, I am not an extremist lol.




I am very much aware of the facts, more than you. But as always, None of the Pakistani member could reply to what I have said. And It was in comparison to the ideology of Pakistan and India. Even I know that many Muslims remained in India after 47.

I am surprised.

The principle to apply here is, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. You can say what you like, and put as many LOLs after it as a Pakistani Tiger insisting without any basis that Kashmir should be Pakistani because he, personally, sees a great resemblance between Pakistani and Kashmiri, but you will remain a duck.

 

[divya]

The kashmiris people from the kashmir valley are really similar to pakistanis, kashmir valley belongs to pakistan for me there is no doubt.
Kashmir is a region, an ethnicity , a different culture, an identity
They deserve a referendum

If kashmiris and similar to Pakistanis then
Pakistanis are similar to North Indians then Pakistan belongs to India
Bengalis are similar to Bangladeshis then Bangladesh belongs to India
Sri lankans are similar to south indians so sri lanka belongs to India
North east indians are similar to chinese so china belongs to India...

Come again what were you saying.

 

[danger007]

The kashmiris people from the kashmir valley are really similar to pakistanis, kashmir valley belongs to pakistan for me there is no doubt.
Kashmir is a region, an ethnicity , a different culture, an identity
They deserve a referendum

If you people are fighting for Kashmiris freedom..... then the title is wrong..... and if pakistan really want freedom of Kashmir why did your military attacked when maharaja decision is pending....... so pakistan want to occupy kashmir at any cost.....if maharaja didn't lean towards pakistan or even if he leaned towards India or alone..... pakistan planned to occupy forcefully....

 

[Bhairava]

Learn from history, but bear in mind that the Sins of the Fathers are not the Sins of the Sons.

In this case, Muslim victims were in all likelihood not even descendants of the invaders.

One should be clear-eyed, however, about the pernicious effects of indoctrination into misguided ideologies.

Good point. Genetically they are not the descendants of the Muslim invaders who wreaked havoc on this land.

BUt then you would notice how a section of the Muslim society [some names that immediately come to my mind include Owaisi, mj Akbar] holds an attitude that 'they' ruled over this land once upon a time and how 'they' added to India's culture, oversaw one of the biggest economies etc. Well if they are going to take ownership of the 'crests' what is the issue when people try to hoild them accountable for the 'troughs' too ?

Point here is not about mass hysteria. But why did the system fail the very people who had voted for the modern day Nepo?... A society which failed its citizen's is no society.

And the proof for your accusations ? Its "innocent until proven guilty" not the opposite.

So what do you suggest ? .... Obliterate whom so ever we hate? ... Parry those who are too weak to fight for his right in our republic?

please..people are not emotionless robots who process things on cold logic and logic alone. emotions play a very large part in the decision making process and more often than not they tend to act like mirrors. Give back what they get

Unless that genome that is causing such things are mapped and altered, things will remain the way they are. Not alone in Gujarat, not alone in India...but anywhere in the world, irrespective of faith, language, ethnicity...

 

[Bhairava]

I hear the argument about Aurangzeb and Moghal far too often, especially after the famous Advani Rath Yatra. People forget that many Hindu Rajputs were part of the Aurangzeb’s army and fighting their fellow Hindus Marhatas. One such was Raja Jai Singh of Amber and it was him who brought Shivaji to Delhi in the first place. Why reserve one’s hate for Aurangzeb alone, why not settle the score with the Bhatti, Rathore and Kachwahha Rajputs as well who sided with Aurangzeb?

Aurangzeb fought and killed his brothers and imprisoned his father that should tell you about the ruthless nature of the man. To consider Muslims of today; a vast majority of whom are converts and carry no Mughal blood: responsible for crimes of Aurangzeb who died in 1707is very twisted logic.

There are many Muslims who consider Aurangazeb their hero, even today in India. That is their personal choice but then there is no point in complaining about the suspicion....an analogy would be if people openly celebrate Osama Bin laden or Mumtaz Qadri then it doesn't give a very good account of them in other people's eyes..does it ? And that is the reason why there is a wariness. Things dont happen in vacuum Niaz ji. Its the cultural,faith linkage that is causing the distrust, not the genetics. Everyone knows that the vast majority of SCal Muslims are natives who converted to Islam.

To some it may appear as an unreasoned hate, but truth be told if you go to Mathura or Kashi and see the original temples there, now converted to mosques, it would be a lie to say that even for a moment you do not see those times with hostility or animosity..and when you see people cheering on the perpetrators it further contributes to the wariness..

And if you think the Hindu wariness about Islam is only because of 17th century history then you are missing the entire picture..many things have happened even in post independence India..like the ethnic cleansing in Kashmir that have contributed to it..

Maybe time will heal it....but that healing must be a natural process...any forced attempts at healing will only open the wound much further..

Regarding the Kachhwaha Rajputs of Jaipur who are the proverbial Mughal flag bearers, some friends of mine from Rajasthan, they being from Mewar and Marwar regions tell how even today they pull the legs of their Jaipuri cousins for their past..

Much, not all, written about Aurangzeb is myth; he was obstinate, bigoted and implacable in his persecution of those he felt to be enemies of Mughal reign, specifically, his reign, but much of the malevolent aura around him is due to a cottage industry devoted to producing inchoate, unsubstantiated comments about how terrible he was. Three facts seem to have contributed to popular aversion to him: his apparent contrast to his benign and broadminded predecessors; his persecution of his brothers and father; his persecution of the personification of Hindu resurgence, of Hindu Pad Padshahi, Shivaji. Obviously, this ignores substance and leans heavily on symbolism.

Aurangzeb, as he was according to Mughal Records

These are not some "Hindutva" fabrications...but based on his own firmans which are now preserved in the Bikaner museum.

 

[Bhairava]

Wanted to emphasize this line more than any other..

Maybe time will heal it [a lingering divide, atleast on a mental level between Hindus and Muslims - Muslim hostility about Hindu in Pakistan and mutual HIndu-Muslim wariness in India]....but that healing must be a natural process...any forced attempts at healing will only open the wound much further..

I just wanted to generalize the Hindu-Muslim relations in the subcontinent....there may not be an open hostility now, but it would be a lie to say they are on the pappi-jhappi level...Exceptions may exist on an individual basis...but on a societal level suspicions still exist..

 

[Screambowl]

I am surprised.

The principle to apply here is, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. You can say what you like, and put as many LOLs after it as a Pakistani Tiger insisting without any basis that Kashmir should be Pakistani because he, personally, sees a great resemblance between Pakistani and Kashmiri, but you will remain a duck.

And your are insisting me to be an extremist. Post reported for Personal Attacks!!

I think you have a fear, of Hindu leadership. Try to accept the secularism, if it gives freedom to minorities, it does apply for majority too.


coming back to the topic, Kashmir was never a Pakistani land, they are claiming it for Resources, not any Islamic brotherhood.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And your are insisting me to be an extremist. Post reported for Personal Attacks!!

I think you have a fear, of Hindu leadership. Try to accept the secularism, if it gives freedom to minorities, it does apply for majority too.


coming back to the topic, Kashmir was never a Pakistani land, they are claiming it for Resources, not any Islamic brotherhood.

Let us stay on topic, by all means, but misguided statements have to be corrected.

I am not afraid of Hindu leadership, or any other leadership, but I do abhor bigotry, wherever the origin. Thank you for providing examples.

Another incredible misguided statement was to say that Kashmir was never a Pakistani land. NOTHING was ever a Pakistani land, or an Indian land. Kashmir was a princely state, whose ruler had the sovereign right to accede to either Dominion, and chose to accede to India.

You obviously do not understand the implications of classifying any territory as intrinsically Pakistani, or intrinsically Indian.

 

[Screambowl]

Let us stay on topic, by all means, but misguided statements have to be corrected.

I am not afraid of Hindu leadership, or any other leadership, but I do abhor bigotry, wherever the origin. Thank you for providing examples.

Another incredible misguided statement was to say that Kashmir was never a Pakistani land. NOTHING was ever a Pakistani land, or an Indian land. Kashmir was a princely state, whose ruler had the sovereign right to accede to either Dominion, and chose to accede to India.

You obviously do not understand the implications of classifying any territory as intrinsically Pakistani, or intrinsically Indian.

well I am not a Pakistani, so I will call it an intrinsic Indian territory since we administer the main economical zone, one should not have doubt on that, you need to understand. If you have any other opinion whom Kashmir belongs racially, ethically, geographically, then you can come up with that.

Another incredible misguided statement was to say that Kashmir was never a Pakistani land. NOTHING was ever a Pakistani land, or an Indian land. Kashmir was a princely state, whose ruler had the sovereign right to accede to either Dominion, and chose to accede to India.

I do sense, that you are favoring an Independent Kashmir. But the status is something else, the constitution of India no more recognizes Kashmir as an Independent domain under Instrument of Accession.

 

[Screambowl]

adding to it, an Independent Kashmir in Urdu means Azad Kashmir, which is in Pakistan, so it does not guarantee of Independence of Kashmir, hence imposing plebiscite means giving Kashmir to Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There are many Muslims who consider Aurangazeb their hero, even today in India. That is their personal choice but then there is no point in complaining about the suspicion....an analogy would be if people openly celebrate Osama Bin laden or Mumtaz Qadri then it doesn't give a very good account of them in other people's eyes..does it ? And that is the reason why there is a wariness. Things dont happen in vacuum Niaz ji. Its the cultural,faith linkage that is causing the distrust, not the genetics. Everyone knows that the vast majority of SCal Muslims are natives who converted to Islam.

Your analysis is fraught with peril, and not for the silly people who support that mediaeval bigot, Aurangzeb. There are some politicians who consider Hitler their hero, and glorify him, in public speeches. By the same token, they and their supporters should be the objects of suspicion to the rest of humanity. Do these feelings of suspicion wake up in such a selective manner?

Regarding the Kachhwaha Rajputs of Jaipur who are the proverbial Mughal flag bearers, some friends of mine from Rajasthan, they being from Mewar and Marwar regions tell how even today they pull the legs of their Jaipuri cousins for their past.

So what is expected of us, that we burst into peals of mirth? So one set of backward feudals twits another set of backward feudals; so what? The whole lot collaborated, and are now busy amending records to display how distant each was. It has nothing to do with modern India. If it comes to that, and you are so keenly aware of which Muslim destroyed which temple in which year, you might remember just a little bit more, and avoid asking us to celebrate the exploits of the descendants of Jaichand.

Aurangzeb, as he was according to Mughal Records

These are not some "Hindutva" fabrications...but based on his own firmans which are now preserved in the Bikaner museum.

What part of my post is this supposed to contradict? Everybody knows that Aurangzeb - and Shah Jahan, and Jahangir - destroyed temples; the degree of rigidity steadily increased. Instead of drawing yourself up and filling yourself with righteous indignation, try to distinguish between 'exaggeration' and 'fabrication'.

well I am not a Pakistani, so I will call it an intrinsic Indian territory since we administer the main economical zone, one should not have doubt on that, you need to understand. If you have any other opinion whom Kashmir belongs racially, ethically, geographically, then you can come up with that.




I do sense, that you are favoring an Independent Kashmir. But the status is something else, the constitution of India no more recognizes Kashmir as an Independent domain under Instrument of Accession.

Again, distortion and less than stellar logic.

Kashmir is Indian because of the Maharaja's accession, not because of some fanciful administration of the main economical zone. As if that is any measure of possession!

Secondly, favouring an independent Kashmir (either the whole of the erstwhile Kashmir state, or the Vale alone) is a view for the future. In no way does it contradict the facts of the doubly legitimate accession of Kashmir to India, through both the Maharaja's Instrument and the wishes of the political leadership. It is not clear why you are getting confused between the two.

 

[lkozhi]

Pakistan has a portion of kashmir. Why is that pakistan make it truly independent than just in name? Make it a full fledged country and show to india what it should be. Then we can follow your example.
Make Azad Kashmir really azad. Abhi wo kaha ki azad kashmir
Otherwise rename azad kashmir to gulam kashmir. That suits better.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistan has a portion of kashmir. Why is that pakistan make it truly independent than just in name? Make it a full fledged country and show to india what it should be. Then we can follow your example.
Make Azad Kashmir really azad. Abhi wo kaha ki azad kashmir
Otherwise rename azad kashmir to gulam kashmir. That suits better.

You fail to note the brazen conversion of Gilgit and Baltistan to 'the Northern Territories'. The Pakistani state has been utterly hypocritical about Kashmir, preaching good governance to India and practicing the worst methods itself.

But that never occurs to our fanboys.