How Kashmir was stolen from Pakistan by Mountbatten

[Screambowl]

However does the instrument of accession legitimize Indian claim over Kashmir. Going by that logic Israeli occupation of Palestine is also justified. The prince obviously did not consider the will of the people before selling out. For those that claim that most Kashmiris r happy to be "Indian" why does india need More than half million troops there. Highest density of troops anywhere in the world. Why wud u call Kashmir an atoot ang of Bharat when u don't even give kashmiris indian passports. Back then yes it made sense for Kashmir to join Pakistan forget all the british red tape it was not their land to begin with. But now I guess we should stop speaking for them and Give them the plebiscite that was promised to them after India occupied the teritory. Whether they choose Pakistan or being independent should be upto them.

Kargil is one reason. Infiltration from your side is other reason. TERRORIST Camps near LOC, whom you call Mujahids, is one more reason. Today one of our soldier died in a cease fire violation from your side.

They are for you.


and who told you Kashmiris do not have Indian Passports?

I suggest you get someone to explain to you what I wrote, since you seem not to be able to follow.

No you were arguing with me by quoting, India is in kashmir due to Maharaja and Pakistan has Kashmir because the conquered it so they did a fabulous thing and we are wrong. but are you upset about this accession???

 

[Joe Shearer]

this is what you wrote >>> "Kashmir is Indian because of the Maharaja's accession, not because of some fanciful administration of the main economical zone. As if that is any measure of possession!"

so Maharaja should have not annexed it to India??

Where did you get that? Have you read my earlier posts?

You really have a problem with English. Should I explain in German?

Your tone seems to be very unhappy about it.

Instead of making inept attempts at detecting tones which do not exist, read my posts, where I have carefully explained that the Maharaja had sovereign status and could decide whatever he wanted, but his decision in favour of India also had popular political support.

Instead according to you Plebiscite should be imposed right?

According to me, a plebiscite was impossible as Pakistan did not withdraw its troops and armed personnel. I was correcting your utterly misplaced reference to imposition of a plebiscite.

You really have a problem.

 

[PAKBARBIE]

'Selling out'? Do you understand the meaning of sovereign? What did he sell out?

And by what feat of the imagination did you figure out that he did not consider the will of the people? Are you aware that the people had been pressing him to join India? That the leading political organization, the People's Conference, was aligned to the Congress, not to the Muslim League? That the Muslim League was supported by the then Mirwaiz, and that Jinnah despised him?

Instead of allowing your imagination such indulgences, read post #270, particularly paragraphs 3 to 7.





Visit the local public library and look up Operation Gibraltar, also Grand Slam. People put in burglar alarms when they are in a larcenous neighbourhood.



That's a nice, round figure to roll around one's tongue, but the whole Indian Army numbers 1.1 million persons. Such a figure is possible only by clubbing together the troops on the border, the troops on the Chinese border, armed police, border security police, the state police, in fact, anyone and everyone wearing a uniform, including the postal service.




And where did you get that impression? The only way Kashmiris travel is on Indian passports.

Also, 'atoot ang' and crap like that is language used by a section of the Indian political spectrum. Sometimes I read appeals by rational, logical Pakistanis not to be labelled or classified according to the language used by Zaid Hamid. So now you know it's an erratic fringe that uses this term, and you also know how representative it is.




For that to happen, you need to comply with the UN resolution, also printed at post number 270.

Read it.

Since going to the local public library seems like ur favorite pasttime i'm not surprised u r unaware of realities on the ground. I guess the un's imagination was going wild too when they concocted all those stories about the highest number of troops And human rights abuses. Maybe u shud save the trip to the library and don't need to go further than the Internet to find that kasmiris aren't getting the Indian passports they need to travel as u point out. Nor is it that easy for foreign even western press to enetr kashmir (whats to hide if all is hunky dory). I'm not favoring the accession of Kashmir to Pakistan I am for of a plebiscite for today's Kashmiris and yes Pakistan needs to comply as does Bharat. Thanks for pointing out in a condescending manner(cuz that somehow makes u superior) that kashmiris wanted to join india. But i strongly believe that now the ground realities r different. Being stuck in a historical time warp will not get us anywhere. We need peace now. Not just the Kashmiris but the 2 nations fighting over it.

 

[Screambowl]

Where did you get that? Have you read my earlier posts?

You really have a problem with English. Should I explain in German?

No thank you , you do not have to twist your tongue.

Instead of making inept attempts at detecting tones which do not exist, read my posts, where I have carefully explained that the Maharaja had sovereign status and could decide whatever he wanted, but his decision in favour of India also had popular political support.

This decision was a quick and helpless decision after Pakistan's offensive move. And I do not see it wrong. Since day 1 after Independace, Pakistan was in a very aggressive nature and had to be dealt with diplomacy.

According to me, a plebiscite was impossible as Pakistan did not withdraw its troops and armed personnel. I was correcting your utterly misplaced reference to imposition of a plebiscite.

You really have a problem.

Even if it withdraws, there is no resolution, since we hold the Instrument of accession which declares Kashmir as an integral Part of India and how dare Pakistan give a Part of Kashmir to China? This should be considered too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is no guarantee. When did it become a crime to influence people in favour of one's own side? Nobody, and nothing stops any move to influence Kashmiris to stay with India. What are you looking for, a pledge by the Pakistanis never to say what they want?

Influencing means to interfere and brainwash people against a Nation, which is indeed a crime.

It means nothing of the kind.

verb (used with object)
7.
to exercise influence on; affect; sway: to influence a person.
8.
to move or impel (a person) to some action: Outside factors influenced her to resign.

Seems like you do support Pakistan influencing Kashmiris.

I don't support it, I don't oppose it. It will happen with or without my pleasure - or yours. And as you may have noticed from the dictionary definition, it is not what you think it means. Only the truly demented would suggest that 'influencing' is a crime.

Are you a Pakistani, or Pro Pakistani?

Are you authorized to hand out certificates of patriotism?

No you were arguing with me by quoting, India is in kashmir due to Maharaja and Pakistan has Kashmir because the conquered it so they did a fabulous thing and we are wrong. but are you upset about this accession???

Will you show me where I said this?

 

[Screambowl]

It means nothing of the kind.

verb (used with object)
7.
to exercise influence on; affect; sway: to influence a person.
8.
to move or impel (a person) to some action: Outside factors influenced her to resign.




I don't support it, I don't oppose it. It will happen with or without my pleasure - or yours. And as you may have noticed from the dictionary definition, it is not what you think it means. Only the truly demented would suggest that 'influencing' is a crime.

well this kinds of Influence comes through cross border terrorism. I do not support it. This Influence comes under Psychological warfare and covert operation, funded by intelligence services.
You still support it then I have to take down your IP and give it to the security forces.(joke)

Are you authorized to hand out certificates of patriotism?

well if you support the cross border terrorism which is to INFLUENCE Kashmirs, impels to go against my Nation, then I am authorized.

Will you show me where I said this?

No your tone is like, what pakistan has, they conquered it, what we have, we got in dowry LOL

And Kashmir is a Issue for Pakistan, Terrorism in Kashmir is issue for India and should be taken care of.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Since going to the local public library seems like ur favorite pasttime i'm not surprised u r unaware of realities on the ground.

Since I am here, and travel throughout the country, including to Kashmir, perhaps my grip of realities on the ground is stronger than yours.

I guess the un's imagination was going wild too when they concocted all those stories about the highest number of troops And human rights abuses.

This is not a statement by the UN, it is one made by you.

Maybe u shud save the trip to the library and don't need to go further than the Internet to find that kasmiris aren't getting the Indian passports they need to travel as u point out.

And on the basis of somebody sounding off on the Internet you conclude that Kashmiris don't get passports? On the contrary, except for those who are rejected due to security reasons, every Kashmiri who applies gets passports. Look at the Internet yourself, and check to see the number of Kashmiris working abroad on Indian passports. Your ignorance is abysmal.

Nor is it that easy for foreign even western press to enetr kashmir (whats to hide if all is hunky dory).

Dozens of them travel there every month. Journalists don't need special permission, even ordinary foreign tourists are allowed free access, and use that to travel there. Most of the white-water rafting on the Zanskar and the Indus is conducted by foreigners, who also have a heavy presence in the hiking and ski-ing sectors.

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm not favoring the accession of Kashmir to Pakistan I am for of a plebiscite for today's Kashmiris and yes Pakistan needs to comply as does Bharat. Thanks for pointing out in a condescending manner(cuz that somehow makes u superior) that kashmiris wanted to join india.

I am sorry that you feel that a condescending manner is what makes me superior; surely there are other proofs available.

But i strongly believe that now the ground realities r different. Being stuck in a historical time warp will not get us anywhere. We need peace now. Not just the Kashmiris but the 2 nations fighting over it.

Two points - your strong beliefs are simply that - your strong beliefs. They do not necessarily reflect realities on the ground.

My strong belief is that Kashmiris want progress and development more than anything else, except for that section of the political class that depends on stirring up trouble as a matter of its livelihood.

Second, the vast majority of Kashmiris, in the Valley, in Jammu and in Ladakh supported accession to India. Assuming for a moment that there is a section in the Valley that wants independence, do we drag along the other two sections? Do we assume that Pakistan will also allow the Mirpur strip and Gilgit-Baltistan independence? There was no change in sentiment for forty years, in spite of Pakistan's best efforts. There is some change now, due to disgruntled politicians who crossed over to Pakistan on losing elections and promoted armed intrusion. Are we supposed to shift around again in another forty years?

When is a decision final? Think carefully before you answer that; it has implications all over the sub-continent.

 

[Joe Shearer]

well this kinds of Influence comes through cross border terrorism. I do not support it. This Influence comes under Psychological warfare and covert operation, funded by intelligence services.

Nonsense. It is open political activity. Even libertarian fringe elements like Arundhati Roy, Mridu Rai and many more have had much to say about events in Kashmir.

I don't agree with them, but the process is a public process, and the elements influenced by terrorism, which are real elements, operate at a different level.

You still support it then I have to take down your IP and give it to the security forces.(joke)

Try not to let your juvenile fancy intrude into every post.

well if you support the cross border terrorism which is to INFLUENCE Kashmirs, impels to go against my Nation, then I am authorized.

Your shaky grasp of English, AND your shaky grasp of the law, have let you down again.

First, I do not support cross-border terrorism. There are nearly 2,300 posts which make my position clear. It is just your fanboy laddishness that leads you to believe that not preventing free speech amounts to supporting cross-border terrorism.

Second, even if anyone supported cross border terrorism, you have no say in the matter. None whatsoever.

No your tone is like, what pakistan has, they conquered it, what we have, we got in dowry LOL

And Kashmir is a Issue for Pakistan, Terrorism in Kashmir is issue for India and should be taken care of.

As I mentioned, you should not try listening for overtones or undertones until you get a firmer grip on the English language.

No thank you , you do not have to twist your tongue.

This decision was a quick and helpless decision after Pakistan's offensive move. And I do not see it wrong.

So who did? What are you arguing about?

Since day 1 after Independace, Pakistan was in a very aggressive nature and had to be dealt with diplomacy.

Sadly, it is becoming clear that a wobbly grip over English is not the only chink in your defences. You also don't know what is called what.

India's response to Pakistan's aggression was military, not diplomatic. Only after driving the intruders out of the Vale, and into the Mirpur fringe did India refer the problem to the UN.

Why do I even bother?

Even if it withdraws, there is no resolution, since we hold the Instrument of accession which declares Kashmir as an integral Part of India and how dare Pakistan give a Part of Kashmir to China? This should be considered too.

This has nothing to do with the discussion. And you are also not aware of the terms of the border settlement between Pakistan and China. You should learn about it before commenting.

 

[Screambowl]

Nonsense. It is open political activity. Even libertarian fringe elements like Arundhati Roy, Mridu Rai and many more have had much to say about events in Kashmir.

I don't agree with them, but the process is a public process, and the elements influenced by terrorism, which are real elements, operate at a different level.




Try not to let your juvenile fancy intrude into every post.



Your shaky grasp of English, AND your shaky grasp of the law, have let you down again.

First, I do not support cross-border terrorism. There are nearly 2,300 posts which make my position clear. It is just your fanboy laddishness that leads you to believe that not preventing free speech amounts to supporting cross-border terrorism.

Second, even if anyone supported cross border terrorism, you have no say in the matter. None whatsoever.



As I mentioned, you should not try listening for overtones or undertones until you get a firmer grip on the English language.



So who did? What are you arguing about?



Sadly, it is becoming clear that a wobbly grip over English is not the only chink in your defences. You also don't know what is called what.

India's response to Pakistan's aggression was military, not diplomatic. Only after driving the intruders out of the Vale, and into the Mirpur fringe did India refer the problem to the UN.

Why do I even bother?




This has nothing to do with the discussion. And you are also not aware of the terms of the border settlement between Pakistan and China. You should learn about it before commenting.

Forget the english ...

I do not recognize nor India does , any border settlement between Pak-China. it is on illegal terms. If you know those illegal terms kindly share with us.

m.

Second, even if anyone supported cross border terrorism, you have no say in the matter. None whatsoever.

so being a citizen of India, I should keep quite and stay calm, if some one is terrorizing my Nation, through cross border terrorism. What kind of so good thoughts you have. I am pleasured (Sarcasm)

 

[PAKBARBIE]

Since I am here, and travel throughout the country, including to Kashmir, perhaps my grip of realities on the ground is stronger than yours.

considering ur narrow-minded views on the plight of kashmiris i highly doubt u have travelled anywhere near kashmir


This is not a statement by the UN, it is one made by you.

what statement? the reason u probably missed those findings by the un is cause u were trekking to the local public library to be with other 5 year olds while the rest of us were taking advantage of electronic media which carries entire databases of books, articles, newspapers, etc. save the trip!


And on the basis of somebody sounding off on the Internet you conclude that Kashmiris don't get passports? On the contrary, except for those who are rejected due to security reasons, every Kashmiri who applies gets passports. Look at the Internet yourself, and check to see the number of Kashmiris working abroad on Indian passports. Your ignorance is abysmal.

so the internet is a legitimate source to find kashmiris working abroad on indian passports and not to find kashmiris being denied indian passports for no reason. my ignorance may be abysmal but not more than ur pseudo-intellect.


Dozens of them travel there every month. Journalists don't need special permission, even ordinary foreign tourists are allowed free access, and use that to travel there. Most of the white-water rafting on the Zanskar and the Indus is conducted by foreigners, who also have a heavy presence in the hiking and ski-ing sectors.

What on earth are you talking about?

now thats a good one- no limitations to travel in kashmir...now where did u get these "facts" .
nice slip up...i was actually starting to think u may have travelled to kashmir and knew u what u were talking about.




I am sorry that you feel that a condescending manner is what makes me superior; surely there are other proofs available.

there there sweety if it makes u feel better that u are superior to a stranger on the internet then i'll let u have it. u seem like someone who wud probably get a kick out of coming up with a list of proofs so i welcome them.


Two points - your strong beliefs are simply that - your strong beliefs. They do not necessarily reflect realities on the ground.

i agree that they do not necessarily reflect realities. nor does ur "opinion" from having "travelled" to kashmir reflect the plight of kashmiris.

My strong belief is that Kashmiris want progress and development more than anything else, except for that section of the political class that depends on stirring up trouble as a matter of its livelihood.

Second, the vast majority of Kashmiris, in the Valley, in Jammu and in Ladakh supported accession to India. Assuming for a moment that there is a section in the Valley that wants independence, do we drag along the other two sections? Do we assume that Pakistan will also allow the Mirpur strip and Gilgit-Baltistan independence?

we are not discussing pakistan at the moment. lets discuss the kashmir problem. does the current population of kashmir support accession to india. lets hold a plebiscite and find out instead of speaking for them. if like u claim the majority wishes to remain with india maybe the plebiscite will legitimize it as indian territory. then they have no reason to continue their azadi struggle. from my understanding and correct me if i'm wrong the azadi struggle is asking for the right to self determination according to todays kashmiris.

 

[Screambowl]

we are not discussing pakistan at the moment. lets discuss the kashmir problem. does the current population of kashmir support accession to india. lets hold a plebiscite and find out instead of speaking for them. if like u claim the majority wishes to remain with india maybe the plebiscite will legitimize it as indian territory. then they have no reason to continue their azadi struggle. from my understanding and correct me if i'm wrong the azadi struggle is asking for the right to self determination according to todays kashmiris.

India has only one Problem in Kashmir, that is the cross border terrorism. Rest is the internal matter of India and we are taking care of it.

 

[Albatross]

India has only one Problem in Kashmir, that is the cross border terrorism. Rest is the internal matter of India and we are taking care of it.

Just to make it simple for yu guys tell me one thing who is in majority there hindus or muslims...If yr answer is muslim then who was in majority in 47 if again yr answer is muslims then another question what was the dividing principle if yr answer is "all muslim dominated areas were to make a muslim state and all hindu dominated areas were to make a hindu state" but it dint happen in the case of kashmir and brits while leaving deliberately made the maharaja then to join indians as they knew this unjust divide will keep both these states locked for decades and they would sell their weapons something they did successfully uptill now...
So dude if any of yu indians have anyother answers for whom i replied yes do let me know...
And be assure unless kashmiris get their rights of free will something they were supposed to get back then in 47 india would have to keep 8 millions soldiers there and even that hasnt helped for so many decades ...So be just and hold a referendum there and live in peace we have nothin else againt india they are pretty normal humans like all others ..And if india doesnt comply we ll always be comin after our kashmiri brothers...

 

[Screambowl]

Just to make it simple for yu guys tell me one thing who is in majority there hindus or muslims...If yr answer is muslim then who was in majority in 47 if again yr answer is muslims then another question what was the dividing principle if yr answer is "all muslim dominated areas were to make a muslim state and all hindu dominated areas were to make a hindu state" but it dint happen in the case of kashmir and brits while leaving deliberately made the maharaja then to join indians as they knew this unjust divide will keep both these states locked for decades and they would sell their weapons something they did successfully uptill now...
So dude if any of yu indians have anyother answers for whom i replied yes do let me know...
And be assure unless kashmiris get their rights of free will something they were supposed to get back then in 47 india would have to keep 8 millions soldiers there and even that hasnt helped for so many decades ...So be just and hold a referendum there and live in peace we have nothin else againt india they are pretty normal humans like all others ..And if india doesnt comply we ll always be comin after our kashmiri brothers...

Pakistan should first secure its border and stop those infiltrators coming from your side into Kashmir and then the talks will be on.
Plebiscite is a gone case now, as we hold Instrument of Accession, due to your fault indeed. How forcefully Pakistan tried to annex it to its domain is not a secret. And still Azad Kashmir remains a Pakistan Territory, so we do not believe in any Independent Kashmir or UN Resolution any More.

How you have given Kashmir to China, is against Kashmiris. Think about that tooo


adding to that, How do you Define Kashmiris, is a topic of debate. Are Only Muslims to be called as Kashmiris, or the non Muslims too. Many have migrated and immigrated too. So It wont be a very good idea to confine the term KASHMIRI to Muslims only, who are living there.

 

[Albatross]

Pakistan should first secure its border and stop those infiltrators coming from your side into Kashmir and then the talks will be on.
Plebiscite is a gone case now, as we hold Instrument of Accession, due to your fault indeed. How forcefully Pakistan tried to annex it to its domain is not a secret. And still Azad Kashmir remains a Pakistan Territory, so we do not believe in any Independent Kashmir or UN Resolution any More.

How you have given Kashmir to China, is against Kashmiris. Think about that tooo


adding to that, How do you Define Kashmiris, is a topic of debate. Are Only Muslims to be called as Kashmiris, or the non Muslims too. Many have migrated and immigrated too. So It wont be a very good idea to confine the term KASHMIRI to Muslims only.

Yu are arguing for the sake of it and dint reply to my logical questions..Its this attitude of yrs which nullify justice completely that has brought our nation at this point ..Instrument of accession wasnt a methood described in that division..Yu talk abt azad kashmir we have no issue conductin a referendum there as we aint afraid of anything...2nd remember that if we can take it forcefully then we can do it now too bt ofcourse its gonna be hell more bloody something we wanna avoid but if yr establishments insists it happen sooner or later as yu can see from world history that not even the greatest superpowers were able to enslave people for long against their wishes and india isnt even a superpower..think abt it pakistani flags in srinagar on every 14th august clearly indicates what yu guys have got in all these decades...Be rational and its gonna be good for all of us and peace of the region..

 

[Screambowl]

Yu are arguing for the sake of it and dint reply to my logical questions..Its this attitude of yrs which nullify justice completely that has brought our nation at this point ..Instrument of accession wasnt a methood described in that division..Yu talk abt azad kashmir we have no issue conductin a referendum there as we aint afraid of anything...2nd remember that if we can take it forcefully then we can do it now too bt ofcourse its gonna be hell more bloody something we wanna avoid but if yr establishments insists it happen sooner or later as yu can see from world history that not even the greatest superpowers were able to enslave people for long against their wishes and india isnt even a superpower..think abt it pakistani flags in srinagar on every 14th august clearly indicates what yu guys have got in all these decades...Be rational and its gonna be good for all of us and peace of the region..

when we already do not believe in such theories which you have posted, we see you illegally occupying Kashmir, why should I reply to it???
why a referendum after 60+ years ??? Things are not Status quo.

and according to me, you are already trying forcefully to annex Kashmir, that's why we are demanding you to check up those infiltrators from your side.