How Dawn Leaks ruined Pakistan Army’s credibility

[Guvera]

The "qoum" should come on the streets and protest against the rulers until they are ousted.
This is what ghairatmand Qoums do.

Agreed Sir! isi liay tu yeh 22 carore ka tabbar aj tak Qoum nahi ban saka.

 

[Lavrentiy]

Firstly, let me point out that both the WWII-era Soviet Military and the Wehrmacht were heavily represented in the political spheres, in fact their presence in social life was to the point of being pervasive.

That being said, let me move to the actual point I want to address. The marginal success of military Ops during Musharraf's era were not due to the fact that Musharraf was the president and removing him magically made them fight better. There were a number of reasons, some of which I shall note briefly.

1. The operations were limited in their objectives. The PA was not looking to establish complete control, they were looking to expunge foreign fighters. The TTP had not yet been formed and so local fighters were seen as misled tribal youth that would just go back to normal life if the foreign influence was removed.

2. The PA was still very much a conventional force then, they tried to fight a low intensity conflict utilizing the techniques that were developed to be utilized against a professional military. Classic mistake that all militaries new to LIC make, the Russians in Afghanistan and Chechnya, the Americans in Vietnam and Afghanistan, the French in Vietnam and Algeria, the Italians in Libya.

3. The operations did not enjoy public or administrative support. The MMA Govt in KPK was very openly hostile to the PA and facilitated the extrication of fighters from SWA. The public also condemned it as a military campaign against "our muslim brothers". Resultantly, the operations were wound up as quickly as possible as soon as some basic objectives were met, there was no greater plan to consolidate gains.

Thank you Sir for your insights on COIN warfare. I agree with the operational problems faced by the Army in a new kind of warfare.

Referring to your point 3:
Who created this policy of supporting and nurturing non-state actors? We can't blame the public when generals like Hameed Gul fed this bullshit for decades that these are some pious mujahideen fighting for an ulterior motive.

This narrative was directly fed by the Army to the public. Therefore, it was hard for the public to change their views overnight.

Had there been a stable democracy, civilian supremacy and unpolitical military. we probably would never had to go through all this mess. Probably, civilian leaders would not have created militias and proxies.

 

[Icarus]

Referring to your point 3:
Who created this policy of supporting and nurturing non-state actors? We can't blame the public when generals like Hameed Gul fed this bullshit for decades that these are some pious mujahideen fighting for an ulterior motive.

This narrative was directly fed by the Army to the public. Therefore, it was hard for the public to change their views overnight.

Had there been a stable democracy, civilian supremacy and unpolitical military. we probably would never had to go through all this mess. Probably, civilian leaders would not have created militias and proxies.

As those who know me on this forum already recognize, I have always been very critical of the military's political role and also the government's tendency to use the military as a stop-gap to perform civilian duties for which separate ministries exist but fail to perform.
Similarly, I am also critical of the social engineering that went into creating a "jiahd mindset" during the 80s and 90s and although it follows a context, albeit a short sighted one, I shall not be focusing on that. Instead, allow me to call chronology to my aid.
After 1971, the military was broken, demoralized and essentially dead. Mr Bhutto was arguably thus, the strongest civilian ruler to ever have held power as there was no alternative nucleus of power to oppose him. He demonstrated that power by unceremoniously dismissing much of the leadership of the military at the time and working to restructure the system and yet it was him, the powerful socialist Mr Bhutto, that first brought Islam to the fold as a political force and had Ahemdis declared as non-muslims, he followed it up with the blasphemy laws, the ban on alcohol and his pursuit of a policy of muslim power.
We all know the shit that went down in the 80s, no need to even go there.
Then in the 90s, both Benzair and Nawaz Sharif persisted with the same policy of utilizing Islam as a political tool for their career.
The fact remains that the military was not an isolated actor in developing this flawed narrative, it was in fact born out of necessity and the realization that the underlying basis of this narrative had always existed. The civil and military leadership of the 70s, 80s and 90s simply played it in their favour. And like a dose of heroin, the next hit had to be stronger than the last and by the time we realized how deep we had fallen into the rabbit hole, there was no visible way out.
So I would like to point out that the democratic forces are very much a part of the problem, if they had remained in power, one might argue that things would have been better but I would contest that they would only be marginally so.

 

[Lavrentiy]

As those who know me on this forum already recognize, I have always been very critical of the military's political role and also the government's tendency to use the military as a stop-gap to perform civilian duties for which separate ministries exist but fail to perform.
Similarly, I am also critical of the social engineering that went into creating a "jiahd mindset" during the 80s and 90s and although it follows a context, albeit a short sighted one, I shall not be focusing on that. Instead, allow me to call chronology to my aid.
After 1971, the military was broken, demoralized and essentially dead. Mr Bhutto was arguably thus, the strongest civilian ruler to ever have held power as there was no alternative nucleus of power to oppose him. He demonstrated that power by unceremoniously dismissing much of the leadership of the military at the time and working to restructure the system and yet it was him, the powerful socialist Mr Bhutto, that first brought Islam to the fold as a political force and had Ahemdis declared as non-muslims, he followed it up with the blasphemy laws, the ban on alcohol and his pursuit of a policy of muslim power.
We all know the shit that went down in the 80s, no need to even go there.
Then in the 90s, both Benzair and Nawaz Sharif persisted with the same policy of utilizing Islam as a political tool for their career.
The fact remains that the military was not an isolated actor in developing this flawed narrative, it was in fact born out of necessity and the realization that the underlying basis of this narrative had always existed. The civil and military leadership of the 70s, 80s and 90s simply played it in their favour. And like a dose of heroin, the next hit had to be stronger than the last and by the time we realized how deep we had fallen into the rabbit hole, there was no visible way out.
So I would like to point out that the democratic forces are very much a part of the problem, if they had remained in power, one might argue that things would have been better but I would contest that they would only be marginally so.

I concur

I am not sure but perhaps it was Mr. Bhutto who ordered to set up a special cell for Afghanistan in the ISI.

 

[DJ_Viper]

No, not many, just one guy thinks he is a Jewish spy and his name is Mulla Diesel.

Ok....and the point is? The real point I was making is that there is so much propaganda from people like you and others on here that its sad to see. Let your country grow, they even now show adds of Pakistan on business networks asking Americans to invest into Pakistan as its one of the top 3 return producing stock markets of the globe. We can see the growth sitting here. You want to stay in a dog house and keep your eyes closed to avoid seeing stuff. That doesn't make the progress go away, you just think there is nothing there so open your eyes!

Reality:

Pakistan never had fair elections.

Deal makers: ISI, generals, mafias, politicians, judges, bureaucrats..

They all want $$$ & green cards.

Pakistani generals are masters of manipulating people.

Bigger reality? You guys are insulting your own government and the military for your own political and mental problems. That is actually very sad to be honest. You should never go against your homeland's interests in favor of your political motives. Reading this stuff is actually very sad. Never seen people who don't care about their country, but themselves and their political interests!

 

[shah_123]

Model town JIT???

And u forgot Hafiz Saeed was also put under house arrest just before kashmir day, as "state policy" as per DG ISPR....in national interest...

I have started hating these words "national interest"

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

View attachment 396310

Ok for the sake of Argument maryam isnt involved in it But But But Sir why aren't you arresting Pervaiz, tehseen & fatmi whose name is in report .
Now dont say you are expecting corrupt government to take action against them .

 

[Mrc]

What potiyans has done in past few days on social media against army....

I can guarantee you..... pti will pay extremely dearly for this...

99% pakistanis are very patriotic and donot agree with their anti state pro taliban stances

 

[shah_123]

Army's credibility has definitely taken a massive hit, if someday doesn't want to believe this, fair Assi ki kariye.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

Army has taken a massive hit in the public opinion, I hope it was a calculated decision and a contingency is in place.

Some people are desparate in creating some 'wisdom' about Army's U turn.
Perhaps there is none..perhaps it's a decision inspired by greed for something by the top brass of the Army..perhaps this is not a masterstroke by the Army.
Perhaps ye bik gai hai gormint kay baad ye bik gai hai fauj wala scene hai.

 

[shah_123]

What potiyans has done in past few days on social media against army....

I can guarantee you..... pti will pay extremely dearly for this...

99% pakistanis are very patriotic and donot agree with their anti state pro taliban stances

Not everyone criticizing Army's muk muka is a PTi supporter ----- PMLN has also done lots of things against army on social media, how they were/are made to pay extremely dearly?

The "qoum" should come on the streets and protest against the rulers until they are ousted.
This is what ghairatmand Qoums do.

Oust the ruler, than what?

 

[naveedahmed86]

change in leadership resulted in change in policy

Maryam ko clean chit pichla Sharif hi de gaya thay, field marshal bannay ke liye phir Saudia main nokri le li. Bajwa qatar main le le ga.

What potiyans has done in past few days on social media against army....

I can guarantee you..... pti will pay extremely dearly for this...

99% pakistanis are very patriotic and donot agree with their anti state pro taliban stances

Jo Generals ne PMLN aur Nawaz Sharif ka putt liya hai wohi IK ka bhi putt len ge. Rest I have high respect for jawans and offices upto Brig level. Many of my relatives are in Army. I have talked to them and they have almost similar views of high command. If you have any, go ask them.

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

Again I'm advising to pti media cell and it's paid anchors stop defaming Pak Army, it will haunt them for years.
Nothing happens to Army's creditably and if someone trying to do it they are same level of Indian and northern afghanis PERIOD.

Pti k bachon ko choro . Apni ghaltiyaan sudharo .

 

[Mrc]

Lagay ga pata... first wait for 2018... than go crying to ur ex jewsih wife with seat and half in assembly.... i think pk is done with pti

 

[naveedahmed86]

Lagay ga pata... first wait for 2018... than go crying to ur ex jewsih wife with seat and half in assembly.... i think pk is done with pti

Fit hai. I would love to see Generals saluting to people who as per them did National Security Breach. Ask DGI to get someone from family married to Hamza Shahbaz. Release Kalbhusan otherwise India will become political martyr and let Sajjan have open meetings with NS.