How could India / Pak / B'Desh manufacturing labour compete with China's?

[Hello_10]

that's the same trickle down BS that has failed for the past decade.

Sir, its very simple. Let’s first talk about so called friendship of China with Pakistan (deeper than Ocean and Higher than mountain) and with Bangladesh also, and here, first you Chinese don’t allow Pakistani or Bangladeshi workers to your country, you don’t give them jobs, at the same time you aren’t worried why their population growth was above 2.5% during last 30 years as more the poor you find begging on street in South Asia region, more Chinese may feel proud by saying that there is a South Asia region which is poorer to China. As, by one child policy of China, you can find yourself smart but you don’t want your friends to think more than fighting with India. And whenever Pakistan faced any real war against a 10 times bigger economy, India, their best friend China was the first who kicked them

Im not a big fan of Bangladesh or Baluchistan but whenever I saw pictures of Lahore and Sindh, I was always forced to say that Punjab and Sindh states of Pakistan must be part of India. And the way these two states of Pakistan have much cultural similarities with Industrialised Gujarat and Punjab+Haryana states of India, there is no reason why per capita income of Gujarat and Indian Punjab+Haryana is around 6 times to the per capita income of Pakistan, if China might have helped Pakistan to establish industries like Gujarat and Indian Punjab+Haryana. (as Gujarat and Indian Punjab+Haryana are the two most prosperous states of India so why can’t students of Sindh and Pakistani Punjab perform as good as these two Indian states?) As, except industry of J17 aircrafts, China just want to take all the remittances of Pakistan by exporting cheap product to Pakistan only. Even if Pakistan is hardly a ‘good’ friend of China, China would help Pakistan to have Industries by themselves. Pakistan would use its foreign currency; they earn though remittances, for importing machineries only to support her industries, not the cheap products directly from China to run Chinese factories, (except transferring industry of JF17 only)? So how can China be said to be a ‘good’ friend of Pakistan if they only want Pakistan to fight with India, but they don’t want them to be as rich as culturally similar SOuth Asian states like Gujarat/ Indian Punjab?
(over 80% population of Pakistan is based in Punjab and Sindh only.)

But what I have predicted, the worse of China-Pakistan friendship may reach even after 5-6 years from now when Chinese military will attack on Pakistani parts with claims that Uyghur militants of their Xinjiang province are getting help from Pakistan’s militants. First China used Pakistan against India as much as they could, and finally, they will bomb Pakistan to get their all the nationals interests done.

August 10, 2011

Uyghur militants threaten Sino-Pak ties
By Amir Mir

ISLAMABAD - The much-trumpeted all-weather Pakistan-China friendship has received a major setback following Beijing's August 1 allegation that Uyghur militants involved in two bomb blasts in July in Kashgar city of Xinjiang province were trained in the tribal areas of Pakistan.
Asia Times Online :: Uyghur militants threaten Sino-Pak ties

As a Chinese national, in fact, you would shame on yourself while laughing on South Asian poor

Thanks and Regards

 

[AADHAAR]

So far there's no counter example. England had this, US had this, Japan had this and now China. In addition, Foxconn is a huge manufacture and it has factory in India as well. You can not use a few bad incidents to generalize the entire picture. Afterall, if they don't like it, they can quit for a better job. The news makes it sound like a forced labor.



I don't give a sh*t to GDP growth, which is always a myth to me. In term of reducing poverty, China is doing way better than any of the developing countries, including India.

Korea -- it's capital intensive manufacturing, not driven by labour exploitation. Yes, all that needs freedom from corruption, love for technology ... and execution. Reliance did execute it (though, it's a one-off example only).

 

[fly2012]

Korea -- it's capital intensive manufacturing, not driven by labour exploitation. Yes, all that needs freedom from corruption, love for technology ... and execution. Reliance did execute it (though, it's a one-off example only).

Japan, Korean and Taiwan went through the exact same paths, the path China is currently taking as well. Of course now South Korea is based on high-tech manufacturing, just as Japan does. As I said, we are talking about how a poor populous developing country can turn into a country like South Korea. You can not turn China/Indian into capital/high tech intensive manufacturing with so manly illiterate people over night.

 

[SinoChallenger]

Sir, its very simple. Let’s first talk about so called friendship of China with Pakistan (deeper than Ocean and Higher than mountain) and with Bangladesh also, and here, first you Chinese don’t allow Pakistani or Bangladeshi workers to your country, you don’t give them jobs, at the same time you aren’t worried why their population growth was above 2.5% during last 30 years as more the poor you find begging on street in South Asia region, more Chinese may feel proud by saying that there is a South Asia region which is poorer to China. As, by one child policy of China, you can find yourself smart but you don’t want your friends to think more than fighting with India. And whenever Pakistan faced a real war against a 10 times bigger economy, India, their best friend China was the first who kicked them

Im not very fan of Bangladesh or Baluchistan but whenever I saw pictures of Lahore and Sindh, I was always forced to say that Punjab and Sindh states of Pakistan must be part of India. And the way these two states of Pakistan has much cultural similarities with Gujarat and Punjab states of India, there is no reason why per capita income of Gujarat and Indian Punjab is around 8 times to the per capita income of Pakistan, if China might have helped Pakistan to establish industries like Gujarat and Indian Punjab. (as Gujarat and Indian Punjab are the two most prosperous states of India so why can’t students of Sindh and Pakistani Punjab perform as good as these two Indian states?) As, except J17 aircrafts, China just want to take all the remittances of Pakistan by exporting cheap product to Pakistan only. Even if Pakistan is hardly a ‘good’ friend of China, China would help Pakistan to have Industries by themselves. Pakistan would use its foreign currency; they earn though remittances, for importing machineries only to support her industries, not the cheap products directly from China to run Chinese factories, except transferring industry of JF17 only? So how can China be said to be a ‘good’ friend of Pakistan if they only want Pakistan to fight with India, but they don’t want them to be as rich as similar states like Gujarat/ Indian Punjab?
(over 80% population of Pakistan is based in Punjab and Sindh only.)

But what I have predicted, the worse of China-Pakistan friendship may reach even after 5-6 years from now when Chinese military will attack on Pakistani parts with claims that Uyghur militants of their Xinjiang province are getting helped from Pakistan’s militants. First China used Pakistan against India as much as they could, and finally, they will bomb Pakistan to get their all the nationals interests done.



As a Chinese national, in fact, you would shame on yourself while laughing on South Asian poor

Thanks and Regards

You sound like you are butthurt because China gave Pakistan nuclear weapons to ruin your indian dreams of military adventure against Pakistan.

With people exhibiting such obvious inferiority complex, little wonder india is so dysfunctional, still a third world country despite all the propaganda BS from New Delhi.

 

[Hello_10]

You sound like you are butthurt because China gave Pakistan nuclear weapons to ruin your indian dreams of military adventure against Pakistan.

With people exhibiting such obvious inferiority complex, little wonder india is so dysfunctional, still a third world country despite all the propaganda BS from New Delhi.

Yaah, nuclear weapons also, hey sir, India always offered to remove all the nuclear weapons from India if China also commit to do so, then why don’t China try to remove nuclear weapons from whole world other than transferring it to different small countries?

I thought you may request Chinese government to help Pakistan have good industries also other than industry of just JF17, but you came with one more argument that China helped Pakistan to get nuclear weapons also? Then here, what problem Bangladesh has who doesn’t have nuclear weapons and 400+ aircrafts, then why Pakistan would only be helped to have more arms and nuclear weapons but not good industries?

I must say that if China might really have helped Pakistan, there was no reason why Pakistan isn’t in comparison to even Thailand, (a fit comparison of Pakistan in Asia if Pakistan might have adopted good economic policies at least since 1991, similar to India/ China, while Pakistan also has good natural resources.) and for your information, if per capita income of India was above to China in between 1980 to 1991 then per capita income of Pakistan on PPP was above to India till 1991 itself, please digest a truth if you can
http://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_DE-PROD/PROD0000000000192108.pdf

And please have a look on one more comparison, where India and China stood as compare to Pakistan in 1950, just 3 years after freedom of Pakistan. Only Thailand could be in comparison to Pakistan, since 1950 to 2011 if, …………………….

GDP per capita in 1950 statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Thanks anyway

 

[Hello_10]

ENOUGH WITH THIS INSULTING!

Sir, we know how many pigs drive cars now days (regardless any nationality) and what exactly their father/ grandfather used to do on the side of streets just 20 to 25 years before, around late 80s/ early 90s, when I used to play cricket on the same ground, on the back side of my home in India . 20 to 25 years before, just around 1987 to 1991, we also saw too many pictures of people begging on the streets in different parts of Asia as having even cloths on the body wasn’t that easy for everyone that time, just 20-25 years before . And I do remember people saying that as agriculture output of land of Punjab is among the highest in the world, people there are rich and Pakistan got half of that area and half remained in India making per capita income of Pakistan higher than India till early 90s. and for me, last around 20 years look like something that happened few days before while if I might have got married at the right time, my own kid might have become a good internet warrior till now

There are too many Chinese internet warriors who won’t know that whenever we found Chinese origin students in our group in my university in Sydney, all of them used to have a device like a calculator on hands to translate English to Chinese to understand group assignment tasks, just 7-8 years from now, AUstralian chinese may enquire. and we used to read in the Australian newspapers that students coming from China have ‘fake’ IELTS results to get admission in Australian universities anyhow. I mean, whether we talk about copying technologies/ cheating in exams/ Manipulating value of Yuan to get advantage in export/ cheap quality Chinese products in the Australian markets for cheap price/ transferring nuclear weapons and missiles to different countries/ even killing of Chinese civilians by communists by rolling tanks over them, it all used to mean for China only, just 7-8 years before. (Even Russia used to blame China for copying/ cloning their arms/ aircrafts, just 6-7 years before.) Where all these riches are coming from and where they stood in 1950, or, especially from 1991 to just 8-9 years before when I first landed on Australia, all I remember as something that happened few days before, we know great history of all these internet warriors

 

[Maler]

India cannot compete with China, period, in manufacturing without changing her labor laws and spend a very large sum for infrastructures.
Even your own well capitalized companies would open factories offshore.

Manufacturing is a good way but certainly not the only way to move forward!!!! Its very successful way to earn heavy bucks in short time as shown by China, but every country is not China. So why we try to be or act like China??? We will carve our own path to success by considering our pros & cons and in actual we already have a start!!!!!

 

[Maler]

I am aware of all Indian's advantage you mentioned. What I don't agree with a lot of Indian members here is that I don't think you can skip labor intensive manufacturing and be a service based developed country. I know service based economy have higher margines but it won't absort a lot of unskilled workers, which all developing countries share in common. Labor intensive works like Foxconn factories, regardless how bad it is, is the only way to pull huge number of really poor people out of abject poverty.

BTW, Chinese started large industrial economic reform in 1991 (Symbolized by the openning of Shanghai Stock Exchange in 1991. The 1978 reform was only on agricultural sector to give farmers freedom on how their manage their land. A few cities like Shenzhen were picked in 1980s to experiment capitalism, and normal Chinese are not allowed to enter these cities without special permission.

Yeaa... you are right, but we can use a good %age of our additional workforce in our manufacturing sector, designed to fulfill our internal demand and a little portion of external demand.

 

[Hello_10]

Let's see who is truly a$$ smart -- indians or Chinese

China's 2011 GDP figures are out! Our 2011 GDP is $7.47 trillion, and our GDP / capita is $5,587 US.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/90375-chinese-economy-news-updates-52.html#post2500898

An unskilled factory laborer making $500 US a month makes $6000 US a year.

Now you ask, how could it be that an unskilled factory worker makes more than the GDP per capita -- after all, aren't there richer people too? The answer is the everybody in the population counts in the per capita GDP calculation, but not all of them work because many are dependents -- children, students, pregnant woman, mothers, elderly -- as well as farmers who grow their own food crop instead of working. So the average salary would be much higher than GDP / capita and much higher than the wages of an unskilled factory laborer.

I had also calculated China’s GDP for 2011 at about $7.3tn just a week before. I even found many Western journalists having very poor knowledge in economics who think GDP of China may not exceed to that of US till 2020 in real term. Please check my previous posts, I just calculated on this forum few days before that GDP of China on ‘real’ term/ ‘exchange rate’ term would exceed US’s GDP by 2015 if they may maintain their growth rate of 8.5%, inflation 5% and Yuan appreciation of 7% to 8% per year. I just can’t wait for 2015 when China will have become the biggest economy of the world. I would love to welcome China as the largest/ dominating economy of the world

And the main +ve thing I find that at around $1.7tn export of China in 2011, their export to GDP ratio now drop to 23% only, far less than 41% in 2007. And if world may not face any sudden recession in 2012, hopefully, GDP of China would be around $9.2tn by 2012, while considering 8.5% GDP growth and 8% appreciation of Yuan with around 5% inflation. this way by 2012, export to GDP ratio of China will come below to even 20% making china very less dependent on export. China is now Role Model for the country like India/ Turkey/ Brazil/ South Africa etc. we expect success story of China will finally result in a prosperous and stable world

 

[Korean]

Japan, Korean and Taiwan went through the exact same paths, the path China is currently taking as well.

Chinese path is very different from the path taken by Japan, Korea, and to a lesser degree Taiwan.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan's industrial revolution was self-funded(even if it was a burrowed money from foreign banks) and self-owned.

Chinese industrial revolution is driven by foreign investments, and China has given up the control of much of their local industries to foreign capital in the process. This is the reason why you don't see the emergence of world-class brands from China, as Chinese domestic market itself is already overrun by foreigners, and this eventually limits Chinese economy's growth potential.

As I said, we are talking about how a poor populous developing country can turn into a country like South Korea. You can not turn China/Indian into capital/high tech intensive manufacturing with so manly illiterate people over night.

There is no easy answer to this question. The formula for the rise of Japan and Korea were as follows.

1. Local ownership of local industry(As opposed to a dependence on heavy foreign investment in China)
2. A rigorous educational process producing high-quality work force.
3. Patriotic businessmen who value the national economic interests more than their own interests("What's good for my country is also good for me" mentality), like taking on national infrastructure projects at a loss and making investments that would not turn a profit for 10~15 years.
4. A government industrial policy that promotes and encourages the growth of specific industries deemed critical to the national interest.
5. A general social contract that dictates that no citizen should be left behind, especially in terms of education. The government strictly controls the quality of education to ensure all students get same education(smart and dumb alike) and same amount of school funding regardless of location. College admissions select students strictly based on test scores and GPAs, no other consideration given like your gender, your parent's social standing, if your parents were alumni, where you live, etc.

Japan and Korea had all 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Taiwan had 1, 2, 3, and 5.
China has 2 and 4.

Now, how do South Asian countries fit in this five point economic development formula? The closer your country fits into above formula the more likely your country can develop economically. India has 1, 2 and 3, and need to work on 4 and 5.

After all, a country with high-quality human resources devastated by wars and some other natural disaster will always rebuild itself(Germany, Japan, and Korea), while a country with tons of natural resources but low-quality human resources will always stay poor.

 

[SinoChallenger]

Chinese path is very different from the path taken by Japan, Korea, and to a lesser degree Taiwan.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan's industrial revolution was self-funded(even if it was a burrowed money from foreign banks) and self-owned.

Chinese industrial revolution is driven by foreign investments, and China has given up the control of much of their local industries to foreign capital in the process. This is the reason why you don't see the emergence of world-class brands from China, as Chinese domestic market itself is already overrun by foreigners, and this eventually limits Chinese economy's growth potential.

Overrun by foreigners usually means you have US army bases occupying your country and they command your armed forces. Overrun by foreigners also refers to where you have three foreign nations Japan, USA and China fighting a major war in your country.

 

[Korean]

Overrun by foreigners usually means

"foreigners" in this context means foreign corporations and businesses since we are talking about economic development here.

 

[Hello_10]

Chinese path is very different from the path taken by Japan, Korea, and to a lesser degree Taiwan.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan's industrial revolution was self-funded(even if it was a burrowed money from foreign banks) and self-owned.

Chinese industrial revolution is driven by foreign investments, and China has given up the control of much of their local industries to foreign capital in the process. This is the reason why you don't see the emergence of world-class brands from China, as Chinese domestic market itself is already overrun by foreigners, and this eventually limits Chinese economy's growth potential.



There is no easy answer to this question. The formula for the rise of Japan and Korea were as follows.

1. Local ownership of local industry(As opposed to a dependence on heavy foreign investment in China)
2. A rigorous educational process producing high-quality work force.
3. Patriotic businessmen who value the national economic interests more than their own interests("What's good for my country is also good for me" mentality), like taking on national infrastructure projects at a loss and making investments that would not turn a profit for 10~15 years.
4. A government industrial policy that promotes and encourages the growth of specific industries deemed critical to the national interest.
5. A general social contract that dictates that no citizen should be left behind, especially in terms of education. The government strictly controls the quality of education to ensure all students get same education(smart and dumb alike) and same amount of school funding regardless of location. College admissions select students strictly based on test scores and GPAs, no other consideration given like your gender, your parent's social standing, if your parents were alumni, where you live, etc.

Japan and Korea had all 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Taiwan had 1, 2, 3, and 5.
China has 2 and 4.

Now, how do South Asian countries fit in this five point economic development formula? The closer your country fits into above formula the more likely your country can develop economically. India has 1, 2 and 3, and need to work on 4 and 5.

After all, a country with high-quality human resources devastated by wars and some other natural disaster will always rebuild itself(Germany, Japan, and Korea), while a country with tons of natural resources but low-quality human resources will always stay poor.

Im agreed with most of you said but I do appreciate China whose per capita income was below to even Congo, Democratic republic of, till 1950. and per capita income of China was below to that of India and Pakistan also till 1991 even if these two countries got freedom by 1947, but now China has become an economic superpower. congrats

GDP per capita in 1950 statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

 

[below_freezing]

"foreigners" in this context means foreign corporations and businesses since we are talking about economic development here.

that's fine. we are using the successful US model: build nukes, hold the upstream telecom, energy and machine tool infrastructure keys that the foreign consumer goods companies depend on, and if anyone goes against us, confiscate their assets which they will never get back due to the mentioned nukes.

SK Telecom should also think hard about why it cannot produce its own telecom hardware and is only a service company.

 

[below_freezing]

Japan, Korean and Taiwan went through the exact same paths, the path China is currently taking as well. Of course now South Korea is based on high-tech manufacturing, just as Japan does. As I said, we are talking about how a poor populous developing country can turn into a country like South Korea. You can not turn China/Indian into capital/high tech intensive manufacturing with so manly illiterate people over night.

South Korea is not based on high tech manufacturing. They have made zero scientific breakthroughs in the past 10 years in any field that can be remotely called high tech. All the process machinery used in South Korean companies comes from Japan and the US. To put it bluntly, they're just operating the machinery. If they were cut off from these suppliers, they would crumble in weeks.

There are only 5 countries in the world that produce their own process machinery. US, Japan, Germany, China and France. Russia used to be able to but cannot anymore.