What's new

How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

detecting BrahMos is great intercepting is another thing that is near to impossible AWACS can help but aerostat is the best way to detect cruise missiles does Pakistan even have aerostat radars?
 
So as per you, a radar is the only sensor used for detection purpose? Do you know what an integrated combat data system is and how many sensors, electronic equipment can a modern battle ship handle? Remove the notion of Brahmos being superior to any detection because in real combat scenario, fantasies do not stand firm.

Sir Thanks for the info, but why are you babying him?

It appears to me that its became a norm among Indian members to come and make foolish claims, and than expecting us to do the research for them and counter their stupid claims. Anyone with a decent mind can comprehend how a modern AWAC Radar works, it uses multiple sensors and tracking mode simultaneously to detect any symmetric or asymmetric threat. Its quite clear that the Indian fanboys over here have derailed the topic successfully.

I am surprised why the mods haven't started kicking out all these Indian trolls out.
 
It seems Notorious Eagle claimed that since brahmos has high IR signature its detection via radar's is cake walk.....

Since you are the only sensible Indian poster here, i will try to answer your question.

As nabil pointed out, a modern AWAC uses multiple sensors to detect any object that is moving with such high speed and emitting so much heat. Pulse Doppler Radar are deadly accurate and will easily detect an object that is moving at a speed of Mach 3 with such high heat signature. Feel free to go over the link that Nabil shared and in the past few posts that i shared, modern AWACS are capable of detecting fast moving objects even if they are hugging the terrain as they can look down and focus their energy on those targets.

Well you do agree there are few "I think" here...Anyhow lets assume what you are saying is correct...However i believe the original question was detection vs tracking....Can you throw some more light on that as well????

Modern AWACS have the capability to detect and track at the same time, they can focus their energy on the target that has been detected while tracking for other threats.

but do you agree that interceptor needs to be faster then the speed of Brahmos(whatever it is at that moment)??? I believe there was some disagreement in that aspect...

That would be a tail chase interception, there is always a possibility that you can hit your target head on. Brahmos has a speed of Mach 2.8; MANPADS such as Stingers have top speed of around Mach 2.2, SAMS can go as fast as Mach 4 and modern heat seeking missiles can also go as fast as Mach 4. Newer fighter aircrafts are equipped with electro optical sensor suites, they can guide a missile with their sensor suites to intercept an incoming enemy missile. Also there is a possibility that Brahmos can be shot down by radar guided anti aircraft guns, they are deadly accurate as they use smart munitions. There are many options to counter the Brahmos, but the attacker also has the option of launching several different Brahmos from different angles to confuse the enemy. Its a cat and mouse game.

I believe you are right here...However that's where cruise missile scores over a typical BM. Calculating a BM path and trajectory is quite easy as compared to Cruise Missile...that is why speed gives a new dimension to CM.....If you can manage a CM which is supersonic and can maneuver (obviously not as much as subsonic one) then it do become a deadly combo...Don't u agree????

Any smart munition that can hit with deadly precision is a deadly weapon.
 
So as per you, a radar is the only sensor used for detection purpose? Do you know what an integrated combat data system is and how many sensors, electronic equipment can a modern battle ship handle? Remove the notion of Brahmos being superior to any detection because in real combat scenario, fantasies do not stand firm.

What has got that to do with my question.... it's still not answered.
What kind of radar detects an IR signature ??
Detecting an IR signature with a radar.... wondering who is fantasizing here :lol:
 
What has got that to do with my question.... it's still not answered.
What kind of radar detects an IR signature ??
Detecting an IR signature with a radar.... wondering who is fantasizing here :lol:
sir ab to choor do ...they wont answer it
 
No, the temperature will be the same whether its a missile or a plane. The plane will emit a bigger heat signature because of its size, but the heat intensity does not depend on size.

Temperature depends on Heat depends on drag depends on size & shape...
don't make ridiculous claims like your pal.

But I thought the BrahMos was 'invisible' because it merges in with 'ground clutter'. Where is the ground clutter at 37000 feet?

Unless the BrahMos takes scenic route along the Himalayas and K2 before coming down into Pakistan's heartland...

The cruise height of brahmos is between 10000 ft to 30000 ft.... depending on ranges and trajectories.... yes brahmos block III has the capabilities to strike targets with pin-point accuracy even on mountainous regions and deep valleys.
 
sir ab to choor do ...they wont answer it

I know they won't since the answer is No.... rather than accepting the mistake they are ranting as usual...
I wonder If they'll ever learn anything like that.... and with that behavior they aren't leading themselves any where...
So sad... and such a pity...:disagree:
 
I know they won't since the answer is No.... rather than accepting the mistake they are ranting as usual...
I wonder If they'll ever learn anything like that.... and with that behavior they aren't leading themselves any where...
So sad... and such a pity...:disagree:
thanks seneor but thats there ******** passtime...!
 
Sir Thanks for the info, but why are you babying him?

It appears to me that its became a norm among Indian members to come and make foolish claims, and than expecting us to do the research for them and counter their stupid claims. Anyone with a decent mind can comprehend how a modern AWAC Radar works, it uses multiple sensors and tracking mode simultaneously to detect any symmetric or asymmetric threat. Its quite clear that the Indian fanboys over here have derailed the topic successfully.

I am surprised why the mods haven't started kicking out all these Indian trolls out.

Did you even read what i wrote? Off course it flies at low altitude but what about the high IR signature, with high IR signature like that there is no way it can escape detection from an AWAC or a capable 3D radar.

Still ranting rather than accepting your mistakes here....
No wonder who made stupid claims
who derailed the topic
who is ranting
and who is trolling.....

---------- Post added at 06:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

thanks seneor but thats there ******** passtime...!

The can be understood and even seen here....
 
Still ranting rather than accepting your mistakes here....
No wonder who made stupid claims
who derailed the topic
who is ranting
and who is trolling.....


You are the one whose derailing, constantly questioning how an AWAC will be able to track the Brahmos? You have to come out clear with your intentions, what exactly are you asking instead of derailing the topic. Are you suggesting that an AWAC cannot track and detect the Brahmos? Are you claiming that Brahmos has a low RCS? What exactly are your intentions.

"The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability. The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar."

Saab 2000 AEW&C - Airforce Technology

http://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publications/sgs/pdf/3_1-2lewis.pdf

Brahmos will have a higher RCS compared to other subsonic cruise missiles as it is flying at supersonic speed as it emits heat, a pulse doppler AESA radar will easily be able to pick up this object on its screens. The launch of the Brahmos will be within the detection range of the radar horizon, with plumes those big there is no way the Brahmos will be able to hide from the eye in the sky. You are more than welcome to refute this claim.
 
^ thats great you can detect it but not intercept it meaning its pointless now get back on topic.
 
Gents,

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding on both sides about this speculation.

First...What does the letters 'A W A C S' stands for: Airborne Warning And Control System.

Second...Where does it say that an AWACS is restricted only to active sensor, ie radar? Nowhere.

Third...Can radar (microwave) be used to detect an infrared (IR) field? There are some highly theoretical work about this technique involving extremely high freqs because the microwave and infrared bands are pretty much next door to each other, but the concept is still far from being applicable, as in 'trickle' down to our level that for now the answer must be 'No'.

Am going to stray off a bit here: Radar detection is an active sensor with the 'R' stands for 'radio', as in using the microwave region. Technically speaking, there is nothing to say that we cannot use the other regions in the EM spectrum and we already have with the laser, as in 'infrared laser'...

Far-infrared laser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Far infrared laser (FIR laser, terahertz laser) is a laser with output wavelength in far infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum, between 30-1000 µm (300 GHz - 10 THz).
Take note of the freq range: ghz - thz. We already have triple-digits freq radar systems, as in very high millimetric imaging radar whose target resolutions approaches that of B/W photographic quality.

Optics InfoBase - Terahertz radar cross section measurements
We perform angle- and frequency-resolved radar cross section (RCS) measurements on objects at terahertz frequencies.
But that is for another discussion.

The current technology with active sensor is that it is highly directional, as in 'beam forming' and we already about that here. When we say that the AWACS has 360 deg coverage, we do not mean at the same time. We mean that we can steer that beam -- more like cone or very thin fan -- to any point in a circle. Obviously, an electronic beam steering method will be superior -- as in speed -- to a mechanical one. But the essence of this diversion is still the same: That an active sensor system in the IR region that is capable of field deployment in a combat environment is still quite a ways off.

Back to topic...

Can an AWACS detect an IR emitting vehicle? Yes, IF the AWACS is equipped with a dedicated IR sensor, after all, there is nothing to say that only radar can be airborne but not IR sensor. We already have airborne IR sensor as in 'heat seeking' missile.

Can an AWACS be equipped solely of passive IR sensor? Yes, but the problem with passive sensor is that there is no ranging information. The system can only tell us the direction of the IR emission. If the IR source is moving, we can perform some fanciful math based upon variable intensity due to distance changes to give us range information, but that leave us vulnerable to other IR sources that may be in the area whose intensity and physical proximity approaches our target's, contaminating our math. We know about this problem with the earlier generation Sidewinder missile being distracted by the sun. So an all passive AWACS is out of the discussion.

This leave us with an AWACS that contain both active and passive sensor exploiting different areas of the EM spectrum. The advantage with a passive IR sensor system is that it can be designed to be either a wide field of view (FoV) or as narrow as we want. An AWACS certainly have room for both types. The US Navy's E2C AWACS fleet has both active radar and passive IR sensors. What happens is that the wide FoV IR sensor detect an IR contrast, meaning there is an IR emission that is considerably higher than the background's IR emission. This information is then transmit to the active sensor system, as in a cue or a clue-in, so that the active sensor system can (re)direct its more precise beam to that IR source. With a mechanical beam control system, this will require some time for the radar beam to approach the IR source. For an AESA system, the redirection will be quite instant.

To the Indian members here, sorry, but the Brahmos is not 'stealth' or not as 'stealthy' as you would like to believe. What constitute being 'stealthy' involve different areas or modes of detection: radar, IR, acoustic, and visual. The last item include physicality such as dimensions and shape of the vehicle and whether or not the vehicle produces smoke or contrails in flight. The missile can have low radar observability but if its IR emission is high enough to produce that contrast then it violated the advice of being 'balanced stealth'.

The question is: How soon into flight will that contrast be available for detection by any passive sensor in the area? That depends on acceleration and the Brahmos is supersonic, no?

Can I reach Mach 1 with an acceleration of 100km/hr or 1000km/hr? Yes to both. Can I reach Mach 1 with an acceleration of merely 1km/hr? Absolutely. The higher the acceleration the sooner I will reach Mach 1 but also the sooner I will produce that IR contrast.

Contrary to popular belief, during supersonic flight, it is not skin friction IR emission that produces the greater IR contrast but compressed air being heated up during -- what else -- being compressed. Below supersonic is when skin friction IR emission matter. At supersonic speed, skin friction IR is a contributor to total IR emission, but not necessarily the dominant.

The Science Pundit: Air friction myths
As an object moves through the air, it displaces the air in its path by pushing it forward and aside. The air moves away from the object as a series of compression waves (similar to the waves that a boat creates as it moves through the water).

What happens is that the air gets pushed forward and aside faster than it can naturally escape. As long as the object is moving slower than sound, the compression waves outrace it and take most of their energy with them. But at supersonic speeds, the air keeps getting compressed and compressed and compressed as the object pushes it forward faster than the air can get away.

Basically, the supersonic object creates its own oven by compressing the air in front of it.
The lower the flight altitude the higher this compressed air IR emission will be due to the denser atmosphere. This leave the Brahmos -- in my opinion -- not merely vulnerable but highly vulnerable to an AWACS that contains and integrate active and passive sensors, aka 'data fusion' and we are not talking about an IR operator shouting his finding down the corridor to the radar operator or even if they sit next to each other. We are talking about the IR sensor computer directly linked to the radar computer complete with video integration of both the IR and radar backgrounds.
 
^ thats great you can detect it but not intercept it meaning its pointless now get back on topic.

How So? Instead of these one liners why dont you explain why Brahmos cannot be intercepted.

Infrared guided missiles can home into the source that is producing heat. Modern SAM's and Anti Air Craft Guns that use smart munitions can be used to neutralize the threat. A ship has multiple levels of air defence, an electro optical guided Phalanx can fire more than a thousand rounds in a matter of seconds. I fail to see how can you possibly claim that the Brahmos cannot be intercepted, thats a very vague statement.
 
How So? Instead of these one liners why dont you explain why Brahmos cannot be intercepted.

Infrared guided missiles can home into the source that is producing heat. Modern SAM's and Anti Air Craft Guns that use smart munitions can be used to neutralize the threat. A ship has multiple levels of air defence, an electro optical guided Phalanx can fire more than a thousand rounds in a matter of seconds. I fail to see how can you possibly claim that the Brahmos cannot be intercepted, thats a very vague statement.

lmfao. Brahmos flies below 10 meters and flies over a speed of mach 2.8 and is very maneuverable do you even have any kind of SAM or capable radar to intercept this? i doubt it your AWACS primary role is for early warning against our aircraft even if you detect a BrahMos missile you won't be able to react quick enough because by the time you get wind of it the missile will have reached its targets we have already deployed block 3 in west Kashmir

i never said it can't be intercepted i am just saying Pakistan doesn't have anything to intercept it with you can see where it is but you can't stop it from hitting its target ;)
 
detecting BrahMos is great intercepting is another thing that is near to impossible AWACS can help but aerostat is the best way to detect cruise missiles does Pakistan even have aerostat radars?
Here you are mixing two things togather which are complements (rather prerequsitis to be precise), If detection of mere crusie missile is near impossible (as you put it) then why would there be efforts to add radar evasion techniques like Terrain Hugging and Design shaping? Brahmos being a supersonic missile has two critical weaknesses 1) it can not use tarrain hugging thus flying at higher altitude exposes it to greater radar coverage (both air and ground based) and secondly being supersonic it looses manuverbility. The Sam systems of this age have Mach 3-4 capability.
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom