How can our pre-Islamic ancestors be claimed to be following Brahmanic or Zorastrian traditions if they ate beef and buried their dead?

[lydian fall]

You are boxed in by Pakistani nationalism and culturalism or maybe you are too young. Had you googled you would have found this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

Prophet Muhammad was Syed, but Prophet Ibrahim was not??! Darood Sharif.

By Islam's histioriography, Prophet Ibrahim was of course Syed which is reference to a blood identity that has existed since ancient time. All descendants of Prophet Ibrahim maintained it since ancient times [not just the Jews].

Only lineage of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are Sayyeds

By your logic all of humans are Sayyeds because they are children of Adam (AS)

Even Ghabil the murderer of Habil is Sayyed too !

The bani Israel that murdered many Prophets including 72 Prophets in one single day are Sayyeds too !

Prophet Ibrahim (AS) is forefather of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and grandchild of Prophet Adam (AS)

But No .... his lineage are not Sayyeds

Only lineage of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are Sayyeds

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

I’m neither young nor a nationalist. I’m pan-Islamist. Making ad hominem attacks tells me exactly what you are behind the keyboard.

Sharing a Wikipedia link that has absolutely nothing about Islamic sources and traditions on this person. Who are you trying to fool?

post legitimate Islamic sources of non Indian origin as all of you from the east have a habit of lying and distorting history

Wikipedia isn't Indian source. Keturah is mentioned in Jewish sources. Arabs know about her and her name is also written in Arabic on the webpage, but Arabs largely ignored her and her descendants.

Keturah: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

Keturah was one of Abraham’s wives. The Rabbis describe her as a woman of virtue, for which she was worthy of being joined to Abraham.

jwa.org

'Genesis 25-6 relates that Abraham sent the sons of Keturah away from Isaac “eastward, to the land of the East.” He told them: Go as far eastward as you can'

As for Shajra, we have them too. My dad couldn't stop talking about them until I started doing research. Shajra doesn't explain how we are proud Biharis with ancestries linked to Nalanda and Pataliputra which produced the Maurya empire and the Lions of Faith emblem of India.

 

[Vikramaditya-I]

yes because I painted that pic just for you

As if it covers for the lack of textual evidence for your claim. Ever thought maybe Hindus know more about their religion than someone who never practised it?

There is burial and cremation in Rig Veda. Original Kshatriya Deva buried their dead. The early Vedic ruling caste was the highest caste on the Indus. This is well known.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1042838352632991744

Oh, there was the burial, even now, we don't cremate someone below the age of 14, 15 we bury them. Or Sages, we don't cremate them (they are placed in the way they died. But overwhelmingly cremation was the preferred method of disposal of the body because there are hymns up on hymns over it. In great detail they describe the oil used on body to aid the burning and all that.

Also, caste as a system came in after the Vedas I don't know who that white guy is but I don't think bringing a gora gives any legitimacy.

Umm no. The Gangadeshis follow the Puranas...not Vedic texts. Ask any Sindhi Hindu in India and they'll pretty much say the same.

What's the difference between Hinduism in Pakistan versus Hinduism in Gangadesh (aka fake India)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid027gbmb5ziRjz8SkX8fgVbBwoKd82vqB1ZUQYrq1MnJXiTQHs497Z8WvL8vRpTZngyl&id=780770378649615

Okay, so this is the source of the claim of the OP's "bury the dead" story among other stories he mentioned LOL. Sindhi Hindus celebrate Holi, and Diwali and do almost everything that most Hindus do in India. Just because there is a border now, doesn't change the history that's thousands of years old.

Kalash people have entirely different customs and beliefs that are quite different from Rig Vedas. Their pantheon/deities have different names. Their customs developed independently to Vedas, quite remarkable IMO. Also, didn't they claim to be descendants of the Greeks who invaded the region? I am more inclined to believe that seeing their appearance.

Where do all these guys come from? Is it the identity crisis week in Pakistan?

 

[epebble]

By your logic all of humans are Sayyeds because they are children of Adam (AS)

Scientifically, all humans are descendants of Y-Chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve. But they are unrelated humans and not a couple.

Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Only lineage of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are Sayyeds

By your logic all of humans are Sayyeds because they are children of Adam (AS)

Even Ghabil the murderer of Habil is Sayyed too !

The bani Israel that murdered many Prophets including 72 Prophets in one single day are Sayyeds too !

Prophet Ibrahim (AS) is forefather of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and grandchild of Prophet Adam (AS)

But No .... his lineage are not Sayyeds

Only lineage of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are Sayyeds

Syed geneologically begins with Prophet Ibrahim [Darood Sharif]. The reason Quraish were famous among Arabs was because of their descent from him. Prophet Muhammad had no male descendants.

 

[AlKardai]

Give me the year

2023

 

[lydian fall]

Syed geneologically begins with Prophet Ibrahim [Darood Sharif]. The reason Quraish were famous among Arabs was because of their descent from him. Prophet Muhammad had no male descendants.

Qariash also includes abu Sufiyan, abu Lahab and abu Jahl (the great idol worshipper of Mecca) and Bani Umayyad ... The ones who were sworn enemies of Prophet Muhammad and his household

Offspring of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) also includes bani Israel (the worst enemies of believers according to Holy Quran) and bothers of Prophet Josef (AS)

Prophet Jesus (AS) had no father but only a mother. And her mother was the best of mankind in his era

According to Quran Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is not Abtar too and his generation are through Hazrat Zahra (SA) [al-Kawthar]

Surah of al-Kawthar is revealed when God gifted Hazrat Zahra (SA) to Prophet Muhammad

Inna atainaka al-Kawthar

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ ‎﴿١﴾‏ فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ ‎﴿٢﴾‏ إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الْأَبْتَرُ ‎﴿٣﴾‏

Indeed, We have granted you, [O Muhammad], al-Kawthar.

So pray to your Lord and sacrifice [to him a camel]

Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.
-
It is a tribalism racism that some people think generation should be only through "males" while Prophet Jesus (AS) had no father and God orders to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to sacrifice a camel after birth of Hazrat Zahra

For Arabs males and females were not equal and they sacrificed camels only when they had male babies and they buried their female babies alive.

Prophet says male and female are equal

White and black are equal

Arabs and Ajams are equals

The difference between mankind is only by their behavior in their life, Not their generation, color or race

You can become Asiya, Maryam and Zahra (SA) while you are female

You can become good while you are female !

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

... In ancient time, the Sharif/Syed descendants from Keturah would have been known as Deva. Bharati Hindu doctrine turned them into 'supernatural beings' because they believed in the supernatural being. Mythologizing them would also help in power-grab.

 

[RescueRanger]

It's been long mythologized that Brahmanical religions were the religions of Indo-Aryans while Zorastrian religion was the religion of Iranic peoples, derived from the Proto-Eurasian Yamnaya religion.

But claims by Pakistanis on our pre-Islamic ancestors and researching into our post-Yamnaya, Sintashta/Indo-Iranic ancestors contradict this claim.

Brahmans and other people today calling themselves "Hindus", a term first misused in the Ghori period, cremate their dead and abstain from eating beef. This is in contrast to Vedic Aryans, our ancestors.

Or at least the ancestors of modern Punjabis & Sindhis.

Both Indo-Aryans and Iranic peoples buried their dead centuries even before they arrived in the Iranian platue and Indian subcontinent.

So where do chauvinistic claims on our pre-Islamic ancestors come from?

We also know that Zoroastrian funeral traditions and fire building do not coincide with both Bronze Age & later Iron Age religious traditions of Iranic peoples.

So how do some nationalistic Brahmans or Persian Zoroastrian chauvinists justify claims of Indo-Aryan & Iranic peoples following these religions.

It is agreeable that Zorastrinism borrows from Iranic traditions just like Hadith-based Islam takes from Semitic mythical traditions, but still we cannot suddenly give credibility to claims that contradict the archeological evidence.

I want to read everyone's opinion on this.

OP you do understand that there were a plethora of belief systems in what is present day South Asia, belief systems that pre-date Zorastrinism?

For example the communities of GB and northern areas practice both documented and undocumented forms of paganism and shamanism.

Shamanistic beliefs and practices differ for community to community. In fact one such community, the ashkun of Nuristan share common heritage, language and customs with the people of the HinduKush, it is because of this shared heritage and beliefs that the region came to be known as Kafiristan.

The Ashkun people’s worshipped a god called Imra, many of its statues can be found in old history books of Afghanistan, sadly no Physical examples remain, here is one image of a statue totem of Imra:

another deity worshipped along the Hindu Kush among the people was Daisani - a goddess of crops and water:

She is still worshipped by modern day Kalash people in Pakistan but is known as Ganado

Historians say her “feats” in the practiced faith were similar to Vala and the Japanese oral history of their deity ame-no-Uzume.

Here is a hymn recorded in 1929 by British historian George Scott Robinson, the lyrics are that of an Ashkun priest reciting a hymn to the goddess Disani

Hymn: "Ut'äya de'bulā̃ 'ye! Tu pycüř sun mol"

O Priestess, (to-) the-dance come ! Your on head golden garland is.

In fact the Kalash festival of “Joshi” / Spring Harvest is dedicated to Ganado where women dance to usher in the new crops and a bountiful harvest, not too dissimilar from the practices of pre Islamic Indo-Aryan paganism and even Hinduism.

I could go on, but the point I’m trying to make is that just by using two major recorded faiths as your test you kind of do a serious disservice to the known and unknown history of religion and belief systems of the subcontinent both pre-Islam and present day.

Thanks.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Qariash also includes abu Sufiyan, abu Lahab and abu Jahl (the great idol worshipper of Mecca) and Bani Umayyad ... The ones who were sworn enemies of Prophet Muhammad and his household

Offspring of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) also includes bani Israel (the worst enemies of believers according to Holy Quran) and bothers of Prophet Josef (AS)

Prophet Jesus (AS) had no father but only a mother who was more blessed that all the mankind in her era

According to Quran Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is not Abtar too and his generation are through Hazrat Zahra (SA) [al-Kawthar]

Surah of al-Kawthar is revealed when God gifted Hazrat Zahra (SA) to Prophet Muhammad

Inna atainaka al-Kawthar

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ ‎﴿١﴾‏ فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ ‎﴿٢﴾‏ إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الْأَبْتَرُ ‎﴿٣﴾‏

Indeed, We have granted you, [O Muhammad], al-Kawthar.

So pray to your Lord and sacrifice [to him a camel]

Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.
-
It is an tribalism racism that some people think generation should be only through "males" while Prophet Jesus (AS) had no father and God orders to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to sacrifice a camel after birth of lady Zahra

For Arabs males and females were not equal and they sacrificed camels only when they had male babies and they buried their female babies alive.

Prophet says male and female are equal

White and black are equal

Arabs and Ajams are equals

The difference between mankind is only by behavior in their life, Not their generation, color or race

You can become Asiya, Maryam and Zahra (SA) while you are female

You can become good while you are female !

Syed/Sharif does not mean infallible. Quran is the Furqan. We have an expectation of righteousness from descendants of Prophet Ibrahim, however they can turn out to be evil. On the other hand, there are Prophets and Messengers of God from the lineage. Allah made Muslims recite Darood Sharif as part of prayer sending blessings upon Prophet Ibrahim's family and the family of Prophet Muhammad because Allah chose this lineage to test.

 

[ThunderCat]

I could go on, but the point I’m trying to make is that just by using two major recorded faiths as your test you kind of do a serious disservice to the known and unknown history of religion and belief systems of the subcontinent both pre-Islam and present day.

Thanks.

Which two "major recorded faiths?" One that has never been recorded in history but rather built on historical misconception.

 

[RescueRanger]

Which two "major recorded faiths?" One that has never been recorded in history but rather built on historical misconception.

Negative rating given. You are no one to comment on the belief and practices of peoples religions. Please stay within the norms of the forum.

You can debate but not outright deadname.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Buddhists have been in Pakistan for at least 2,000 years. Archaeologists uncovered a Buddhist Temple in the Swat Valley built some time between 563 and 483 BCE.

Buddhism in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Buddhism was first introduced to China and Korea through monks from modern-day Pakistan.

Okay, so this is the source of the claim of the OP's "bury the dead" story among other stories he mentioned LOL. Sindhi Hindus celebrate Holi, and Diwali and do almost everything that most Hindus do in India. Just because there is a border now, doesn't change the history that's thousands of years old.

Sindhi Hindus bury their dead. Holi and Diwali are very new to Sindhi Hindus and started to be adopted during the 1900s as the influence of "mainstream Hinduism" grew among Sindhi Hindus, even then, it was not popular until very recently.

 

[epebble]

Prophet Jesus (AS) had no father but only a mother.

Is this the belief among all Muslims? I thought this is only a Christian belief.

 

[Vikramaditya-I]

Sindhi Hindus bury their dead. Holi and Diwali are very new to Sindhi Hindus and started to be adopted during the 1900s as the influence of "mainstream Hinduism" grew among Sindhi Hindus, even then, it was not popular until very recently.

Not the Sindhis I know in Gujarat. And no it is not some cultural influence thing, there is nothing called "mainstream Hinduism", each region has different customs, and Sindhi Hindus follow the traditional Lunisolar Hindu calendar which basically has all those festivals. You are free to bring any evidence to back up your claim.