How can our pre-Islamic ancestors be claimed to be following Brahmanic or Zorastrian traditions if they ate beef and buried their dead?

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Oh, there was the burial, even now, we don't cremate someone below the age of 14, 15 we bury them.

Original Kshatriya did not bury their dead. He is PhD academic. Thank God for western academics. They may not get everything right, but they keep pushing toward the truth.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

If he were not cremated, there would be a tomb like it exists for other famous founders of religions. The urn with ashes has Brahmi script that is very old. Buddha was a Hindu (or Vedic religion, as the word did not exist then) prince. Since Buddha was not ever claimed to be a supernatural person (e.g., no miracles attributed to him), there is not much reason to make up stories about his death. I agree Jesus' relics are all invented as Christianity was invented by Apostle Paul well after Jesus's death. It is unlikely that all the relics would be preserved for a man whose name would be attached to a religion to be founded later.

Buddh was Bihari/Vihari. Gaya is in Bihar where he became Buddh. Bihar is ancient Vedic word - not Hindu, which is Persian in origin. Bihar/Vihar were idol-free structures or areas

Christ did not pray with hands folded, neither did Buddh. It is how Indo-Europeans pray. We don't pray like it. We don't even use the phrase, 'haanth jorh kar maangna', but many Pakistanis commonly do.

Easter Risen Prayer Hands stock image. Image of iconic - 36675707

Photo about Jesus Christ Portrait praying image back lit with hands in prayer offering a loving blessing and deep love and gratitude. Image of iconic, enlightened, field - 36675707

www.dreamstime.com

 

[Vikramaditya-I]

Original Kshatriya did not bury their dead. He is PhD academic. Thank God for western academics. They may not get everything right, but they keep pushing toward the truth.

He also rejects the theory that Aryans ever migrated to India. That basically nullifies your entire talking point. Besides, no amount of PhD scholarship can change what RigVeda said. He is free to have his theories, but without actual textual evidence, this means zilch. Also, he is a practising Hindu, I am sure he could explain away the cremation of King Dasharatha, Arjuna, et al.

 

[White privilege]

If it was upto the Sanghis, they would claim the Moon was also part of their imaginary Vedic empire.

 

[epebble]

Christ did not pray with hands folded, neither did Buddh. It is how Indo-Europeans pray. We don't pray like it. We don't even use the phrase, 'haanth jorh kar maangna', but many Pakistanis commonly do.

Easter Risen Prayer Hands stock image. Image of iconic - 36675707

Photo about Jesus Christ Portrait praying image back lit with hands in prayer offering a loving blessing and deep love and gratitude. Image of iconic, enlightened, field - 36675707

www.dreamstime.com

Folding hands in prayer seems to be a 3000-year-old tradition.

In the Jewish tradition, there is evidence in the Talmud that some prayed with hands folded as early as the post-Exilic period and even continued after Christianity was established. According to the text, the Jewish Babylonian sage, Rabba (Abba ben Joseph, C. 280-352), used to pray with his hands folded.

This is from Talmud:

Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 10a רבא בר רב הונא רמי פוזמקי ומצלי, אמר הכון לקראת וגו'. רבא שדי גלימיה ופכר ידיה, ומצלי. אמר: כעבדא קמיה מריה. אמר רב אשי: חזינא ליה לרב כהנא, כי איכא צערא בעלמא - שדי גלימיה ופכר ידיה ומצלי, אמר: כעבדא קמי מריה. כי איכא שלמא - לביש ומתכסי ומתעטף ומצלי, אמר: הכון לקראת אלהיך ישראל. Raba son of R. Huna put on stockings and prayed, quoting, ‘prepare to meet etc.’ Raba removed his cloak, clasped his hands and prayed, saying, ‘[I pray] like a slave before his master.’ R. Ashi said: I saw R. Kahana, when there was trouble in the world, removing his cloak, clasp his hands, and pray, saying, ‘[I pray] like a slave before his master.’ When there was peace, he would put it on, cover and enfold himself and pray, quoting, ‘Prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.’

 

[hussain0216]

If it was upto the Sanghis, they would claim the Moon was also part of their imaginary Vedic empire.

They love fantasy

 

[lydian fall]

Is this the belief among all Muslims? I thought this is only a Christian belief.

Yes he born only by his blessed mother and by miracle of God

 

[AA_]

They love fantasy

@Novus ordu seclorum is telling me about a Concubine of Prophet Ibrahim and her descendants being “Ancient Syeds” or “Kshatriya Deva.” I asked him for authentic Islamic sources, he shares a Wikipedia page that contains nothing about Islamic source, but has Christian concepts of her. Then he shares a Jewish page which again makes no sense as our traditions differs, but he wants me to believe it’s Islamic when I cannot find one Islamic source online. Then he provides a weak argument that Durood Sharif contains the family of Ibrahim (as) so it means that his family is “Syed.”
Ibrahim (as) blessed home includes his wife and son, legitimate children’s.

Another Indian is distorting history, specifically Islamic history, and providing personal views and non Islamic sources when I asked him to provide authentic Islamic sources.

Wikipedia isn't Indian source. Keturah is mentioned in Jewish sources. Arabs know about her and her name is also written in Arabic on the webpage, but Arabs largely ignored her and her descendants.

Keturah: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

Keturah was one of Abraham’s wives. The Rabbis describe her as a woman of virtue, for which she was worthy of being joined to Abraham.

jwa.org

'Genesis 25-6 relates that Abraham sent the sons of Keturah away from Isaac “eastward, to the land of the East.” He told them: Go as far eastward as you can'

As for Shajra, we have them too. My dad couldn't stop talking about them until I started doing research. Shajra doesn't explain how we are proud Biharis with ancestries linked to Nalanda and Pataliputra which produced the Maurya empire and the Lions of Faith emblem of India.

Provide authentic Islamic non Indian source to back up your claims. Until I see actual authentic Islamic source verifying your claims, I refused to believe this. As for other Muslims members, please add if you can.

@Sayfullah @Battlion25 @Mirzali Khan @PakFactor @SalarHaqq @salarsikander @lastofthepatriots @AlKardai

 

[ThunderCat]

A burial site reconstructed at Sintashta:

 

[El Sidd]

It's been long mythologized that Brahmanical religions were the religions of Indo-Aryans while Zorastrian religion was the religion of Iranic peoples, derived from the Proto-Eurasian Yamnaya religion.

But claims by Pakistanis on our pre-Islamic ancestors and researching into our post-Yamnaya, Sintashta/Indo-Iranic ancestors contradict this claim.

Brahmans and other people today calling themselves "Hindus", a term first misused in the Ghori period, cremate their dead and abstain from eating beef. This is in contrast to Vedic Aryans, our ancestors.

Or at least the ancestors of modern Punjabis & Sindhis.

Both Indo-Aryans and Iranic peoples buried their dead centuries even before they arrived in the Iranian platue and Indian subcontinent.

So where do chauvinistic claims on our pre-Islamic ancestors come from?

We also know that Zoroastrian funeral traditions and fire building do not coincide with both Bronze Age & later Iron Age religious traditions of Iranic peoples.

So how do some nationalistic Brahmans or Persian Zoroastrian chauvinists justify claims of Indo-Aryan & Iranic peoples following these religions.

It is agreeable that Zorastrinism borrows from Iranic traditions just like Hadith-based Islam takes from Semitic mythical traditions, but still we cannot suddenly give credibility to claims that contradict the archeological evidence.

I want to read everyone's opinion on this.

The strange curiosity that interest me is that the most upper layer of Sind civilisation outdates the most deepest layer of civilisations like the Sumerian.

Concept of Aryan race and Aryan invasion is deeply rooted in India and Persia. Strangely both lay on the outskirts of ancient actual civilisations like barbarian tribes.

 

[ThunderCat]

The strange curiosity that interest me is that the most upper layer of Sind civilisation outdates the most deepest layer of civilisations like the Sumerian.

Concept of Aryan race and Aryan invasion is deeply rooted in India and Persia. Strangely both lay on the outskirts of ancient actual civilisations like barbarian tribes.

It's rejected in India. They believe Sanskrit "originated" in India and Europeans immigrated from there. But the problem is Vedic Aryans practiced nothing called "Hinduism" a British misconception that emerged in the 1830s out of mislabeling various different religions under one umbrella because of sharing common geography with one another.

 

[El Sidd]

It's rejected in India. They believe Sanskrit "originated" in India and Europeans immigrated from there. But the problem is Vedic Aryans practiced nothing called "Hinduism" a British misconception that emerged in the 1830s out of mislabeling various different religions under one umbrella because of sharing common geography with one another.

It's due to obsession of the British to classify everything in a neat manner. The oversimplification has been a major issue for historians and academics. It's like the only category they could be fit under was regional pagans.

Sinti and Romas have all but genocided in Europe.

Sind-Saraswati religion is unknown. It's all speculation.

 

[Menace2Society]

It's rejected in India. They believe Sanskrit "originated" in India and Europeans immigrated from there. But the problem is Vedic Aryans practiced nothing called "Hinduism" a British misconception that emerged in the 1830s out of mislabeling various different religions under one umbrella because of sharing common geography with one another.

Which confirms my theory if Indus was left alone they would have created their own version of monotheism. The missing link for Pakistan to be able to become a fully fledged civilization.

 

[ThunderCat]

It's due to obsession of the British to classify everything in a neat manner. The oversimplification has been a major issue for historians and academics. It's like the only category they could be fit under was regional pagans.

Sinti and Romas have all but genocided in Europe.

Sind-Saraswati religion is unknown. It's all speculation.

Yes but I'm referring to Vedic religion, which is a deritivive of the older Shintasta religion. While Proto-Indo-Iranic people might have been of the same source as modern Europeans, all of which trace back to the late Neolithic Yamnya culture, they were still distinct in sublinguistics as well as facial appearances, despite being white people.

Seeing the facial reconstructions of the ancient Indo-Iranic populations of the Bronze Age, it's clear they were their own variety of Caucasoid people.

But modern Indians reject it because they probably don't want to believe the language & culture they worship was imposed upon them rather than it originating from them. Archeological and linguistic studies clarify that the Vedic civilization is an off-shoot of the earlier Sintashta culture.

 

[El Sidd]

Yes but I'm referring to Vedic religion, which is a deritivive of the older Shintasta religion. While Proto-Indo-Iranic people might have been of the same source as modern Europeans, all of which trace back to the late Neolithic Yamnya culture, they were still distinct in sublinguistics as well as facial appearances, despite being white people.

Seeing the facial reconstructions of the ancient Indo-Iranic populations of the Bronze Age, it's clear they were their own variety of Caucasoid people.

But modern Indians reject it because they probably don't want to believe the language & culture they worship was imposed upon them rather than it originating from them. Archeological and linguistic studies clarify that the Vedic civilization is an off-shoot of the earlier Sintashta culture.

The geographical realities of the Gangetic plains were never conducive to such complex developments.