How Akinci &MQ 9 fit into Indo Pak theatre?

[PanzerKiel]

The basic purpose of UAVs is to act as cheap yet Expendable assets
But these big items MQ 9 and Akinci basically defeat that basic purpose
of having UAVs
MQ 9 costs India 100Milliom USD and Akinci is also not a cheap asset.
Romania purchased simple TB2 drones with 16 Million USD per unit cost (support and weapons package included) now imagine how much Akinci will cost us! Clearly at least 30Million USD per Unit.
And Indo Pak theatre is becoming highly SAM &Fighter Jets contested
Akinci &MQ 9 have have zero chance of survival in this region.

US tried to Arm its MQ 9 with Sidewinder A2A Missiles to give some defence to MQ 9 against Fighter Jets but realized that this thing can't pull out even a 2-G manouver for self defence and abandoned the idea.

I am trying to figure out do these expensive birds really worth of our hard earned money?
This money would have been better spent on loitering munitions development & drone swarm technologies.
I believe our our military planners are really vulnerable to social media hype created around new weapons and go after them without comprehensive analysis of their use in our own environment.
Even TB2s were shot out of sky right at the start of war by Russia and it's loitering munitions who are better sustainable for long spanned war.

@SQ8
@PanzerKiel
@MastanKhan
And other knowledgeable members

Or Am I failing to correctly connect the dots?

An assembly line for the UCAVs we have in service is about to get operational.

 

[Zarvan]

An assembly line for the UCAVs we have in service is about to get operational.

Only Turkish drones or Chinese as well ?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Only Turkish drones or Chinese as well ?

One of them.

 

[Trisolaran]

Ukraine had 50 TB2s and this is a large number actually.
They did very little damage to Russia
They could not stand against Russian Short Range defence systems &EW systems
And they will not last long against India either.
Though good against greece and PKK and that's what they were really designed for.

TB2s caused the most damage to the Russian logistics network in the first month of the war.
Almost all air operations to Snake Island were conducted by TB2s or directed by TB2s, they were destroyed after that time but if Turkey had continued to supply TB2 to Ukraine, we would probably see much more impact

 

[maithil]

These drones are useful till first round of SAM is fired.

 

[SQ8]

The basic purpose of UAVs is to act as cheap yet Expendable assets
But these big items MQ 9 and Akinci basically defeat that basic purpose
of having UAVs
MQ 9 costs India 100Milliom USD and Akinci is also not a cheap asset.
Romania purchased simple TB2 drones with 16 Million USD per unit cost (support and weapons package included) now imagine how much Akinci will cost us! Clearly at least 30Million USD per Unit.
And Indo Pak theatre is becoming highly SAM &Fighter Jets contested
Akinci &MQ 9 have have zero chance of survival in this region.

US tried to Arm its MQ 9 with Sidewinder A2A Missiles to give some defence to MQ 9 against Fighter Jets but realized that this thing can't pull out even a 2-G manouver for self defence and abandoned the idea.

I am trying to figure out do these expensive birds really worth of our hard earned money?
This money would have been better spent on loitering munitions development & drone swarm technologies.
I believe our our military planners are really vulnerable to social media hype created around new weapons and go after them without comprehensive analysis of their use in our own environment.
Even TB2s were shot out of sky right at the start of war by Russia and it's loitering munitions who are better sustainable for long spanned war.

@SQ8
@PanzerKiel
@MastanKhan
And other knowledgeable members

Or Am I failing to correctly connect the dots?

As a first
When they are shot down no pilot is either killed or ejects to be taken PoW or needing an expensive CSAR mission to rescue them.

Then, while these are shot out of the sky - that is better than losing Su-25s, Su-30s or in this case JF-17 and F-16s near a contested battlefield.

The loss of a fighter aircraft includes not only machine, but man and morale of its maintenance team and squadron.

UAVs are inherently not going to cause the loss of Morale a living breathing human will.
Then, because of their cheaper nature - you have more available to use to entice the enemy to turn their radars on and allow you to engage them. The sea guardian is not a battlefield weapon and is more suited to allow the IN to conduct long range coastal policing and shadowing of their opponents assets or offboard targeting.

The Akinci is not supposed to go in all alone into a contested battlefield either. Ideally you would want TB-2 acting as ELINT, the other Jamming - 2 others acting as secondary targets while the Akinci picks out SAMs with stand off systems like the SOM before this groups pushes deeper into the contested airspace.

All the while you have JF-17s or J-10s providing cover to these assets from safer heights or further back.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Send 1.000 Indian Tanks into Pakistan .. no problem
TB-2 and AKINCI UCAVs can find and destroy all of them

The problem with the Indians is if only 10 tanks get destroyed they'd immediately halt the war and go back to backbiting Pak! Only 2 fighters got lost and they stopped all ops against 7x smaller Pak....

 

[Sliver]

for 100 million$, you get a 40 hour endurance - well past human abilities.
the point that UCAVs will not survive on contested airspace in the Indo Pak Border:

except for the feb 19 period of maybe like 24-48 hours, rest of the time, the areas was uncontested.

and when you think about the Himalayan border with China (For India) - it would be even more useful as the number of SAM installations is even less (given the length of the border and the terrain)

my 2 cents:
Pakistan's UCAVs are mainly for attack/repulse mode (if they attack, we will repulse)
India's acquisitions seem to be more "constant surveillance" mode (lets find weaknesses)

 

[MMM-E]

They did very little damage to Russia
They could not stand against Russian Short Range defence systems &EW systems

Russia used Fighter Jets to hit TB-2 UCAVs in Ukraine


TB-2 UCAV armed with only 8 km MAM-L laser guided munition ,
still TB-2 UCAVs destroyed 48 AD Systems including PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , S300


now TB-2 armed with 200+ km KEMANKES mini smart cruise missile with E/O Camera to hit PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , AKASH AD Systems from safe distance


Russian BUK-M2 Air Defense System Obliterated By Bayraktar TB2 Drone

TB2 of Ukraine destroyed the BUK-M1 air defense system of the Russian forces!​

TB2 destroying Russian 9K317 Buk M2 SA-17 command post electronic warfare vehicles​

Bayraktar TB2 destroys Russian air defenses on Snake Island​

TB2 Destroyed Russian BUK M1 SAM Systems

Russian Tor missile system destroyed by Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 UCAV​

and many more
PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , AKASH AD Systems are easy target for AKINCI UCAVs

 

[MMM-E]

The Akinci is not supposed to go in all alone into a contested battlefield either. Ideally you would want TB-2 acting as ELINT, the other Jamming - 2 others acting as secondary targets while the Akinci picks out SAMs with stand off systems like the SOM before this groups pushes deeper into the contested airspace.

SOM is expensive weapon

AKINCI UCAV can carry SUPER SIMSEK kamikaze Drones to hit AD Systems including PATRIOT , SAMP-T , S300 , S400

Range : 700 km
Weight : 200 kg
Warhead : 35 kg
Speed : mach 0.85

150 km CAKIR and 180+ km KUZGUN-TJ Cruise Missiles can destroy SAMs like PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , AKASH from safe distance

even 80 km TOLUN-IIR can destroy SAMs like PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , AKASH from safe distance

even 60 km ALPAGUT kamikaze Drone can destroy SAMs like PANTSIR , TOR , BUK , AKASH from safe distance

TB-2 UCAV carry 100 km Jamming Pod to jam and paralyze SAMs

 

[indushek]

As a first
When they are shot down no pilot is either killed or ejects to be taken PoW or needing an expensive CSAR mission to rescue them.

Then, while these are shot out of the sky - that is better than losing Su-25s, Su-30s or in this case JF-17 and F-16s near a contested battlefield.

The loss of a fighter aircraft includes not only machine, but man and morale of its maintenance team and squadron.

UAVs are inherently not going to cause the loss of Morale a living breathing human will.
Then, because of their cheaper nature - you have more available to use to entice the enemy to turn their radars on and allow you to engage them. The sea guardian is not a battlefield weapon and is more suited to allow the IN to conduct long range coastal policing and shadowing of their opponents assets or offboard targeting.

The Akinci is not supposed to go in all alone into a contested battlefield either. Ideally you would want TB-2 acting as ELINT, the other Jamming - 2 others acting as secondary targets while the Akinci picks out SAMs with stand off systems like the SOM before this groups pushes deeper into the contested airspace.

All the while you have JF-17s or J-10s providing cover to these assets from safer heights or further back.

Do you think in future, the need for a manned Ground control station will be done with? Where a AI in a more Pentagon like setup, might be running multiple drones in far and wide locations? The cost for such data links might be prohibitive perhaps right now, but with Starlink and Oneweb kind of facilities.. it might be possible right?

I mean even in peace time, the GCS will be in a danger of getting tracked and taken out?

 

[Zarvan]

One of them.

Turkish it's

 

[Silicon0000]

Don't think Drones as a fighter jet. They are not fighter jet. They have their own purpose for which they are bought, and they can do that very well.

 

[SQ8]

Do you think in future, the need for a manned Ground control station will be done with? Where a AI in a more Pentagon like setup, might be running multiple drones in far and wide locations? The cost for such data links might be prohibitive perhaps right now, but with Starlink and Oneweb kind of facilities.. it might be possible right?

I mean even in peace time, the GCS will be in a danger of getting tracked and taken out?

Your planners are already ahead of the curve with that but they dont have the platforms to use locked in because #overconfidence and reaching a bit ahead. They are waiting for the domestic UCAV and MUM-T systems to pair with this.

The current focus is on loitering munitions for both the IAF and IA to use - especially with the proverbial truck that is the MKi. Since it is the most numerous and also a bit short in A2G capability because of hyper focus on A2A but also because that is being diluted due to changing technologies and acquisitions in the neighborhood.

The near goal it seems is to have UAVs for targeting but have MKis be the truck to deliver tens of loiterers munitions with the rear seat controlling them. Lot of technical hurdles to overcome least of which is the already Frankenstein nature of systems on the aircraft… but once done until 2030 will give the IAF serious precision “carpet bombing” capabilities to literally wipe out enemy forces in an entire area. Post that the fighter UCAV should start coming in with other local programs but who knows where tech goes from there.

The AI piece of it will be more suggestive than decision initially - the man-in-the-loop isn’t going away anytime soon.. and plus plenty of Indians available anyway to provide a job to

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

An assembly line for the UCAVs we have in service is about to get operational.

It will most probably kill our domestic UAV programs