Honeywell tenders for Jaguar engine upgrade

[MehrotraPrince]

Honeywell tenders for Jaguar engine upgrade

Feb 2013
New Delhi is considering a proposal from Honeywell to upgrade the engines of 125 Sepecat and Hindustan Aeronautics-built Jaguar strike aircraft, after issuing a sole-source request for proposals (RFP) in late 2012.

Honeywell recently submitted a bid for 270 F125IN powerplants to the Indian defence ministry, says an industry source at the Aero India show.

The US company says the F125IN will allow for 23% shorter "hot and high" take-offs, 17-40% higher thrust, greater mission range and better fuel efficiency. It adds that the Jaguars, introduced in 1979, have become overweight and underpowered following years of avionics and weapon systems upgrades.

New Delhi's Hindustan Aeronautics-produced Jaguars are now powered by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour 811s. The UK engine manufacturer had proposed upgrading these to the Adour 821 standard. However, the company says that in November 2010 the Indian government issued an RFP to itself and Honeywell calling for a new design.

In February 2011, R-R threw the planned upgrade into limbo when it decided not to tender for the work. This created a single-bidder situation that is generally not allowed under Indian procurement policy.

Although sole-source bids contravene normal acquisition practice in India, the air force and defence ministry appear to be making an exception in the case of the Jaguar, says the source.

AERO INDIA: Honeywell tenders for Jaguar engine upgrade

 

[sasi]

 

[sancho]

Interesting, Dash HMS's and not Samtels Topsight versions, that the Mig 29s and Mirage fighters will have?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Interesting, Dash HMS's and not Samtels Topsight versions, that the Mig 29s and Mirage fighters will have?

But the same as on the LCA (another HAL/DRDO-led project). Interesting- I didn't realise the DARIN IIIs would be coming with a HMDS.

 

[sancho]

But the same as on the LCA (another HAL/DRDO-led project). Interesting- I didn't realise the DARIN IIIs would be coming with a HMDS.

Yes, but because it was integraded several years ago. For the Jags, this will be a new capability and all recent HMS procurements were from Samtel. Infact, wasn't there some pics and reports about LCA testing a different helmet too.
Yes I am surprised by the HMS for Jags too, just another waste of money imo, since these fighters have to be escorted anyway, no point in upgrading them all with so many new techs, I even question the need of radars for all of them.
However, if it's true and after Litening, EL 2032, they also get Dash HMS, it should be likely that they get Python V missiles too, which would be rather hilarious if the Jags have better HMS / SR missile combos than the MKIs.

 

[sasi]

Interesting, Dash HMS's and not Samtels Topsight versions, that the Mig 29s and Mirage fighters will have?

i am not sure-topsigt for mig29s and mirage.
Though navy got it(?)
mirage upgrade is too much $$!

 

[Abingdonboy]

i am not sure-topsigt for mig29s and mirage.
Though navy got it(?)
mirage upgrade is too much $$!

The M2K upgrade IS coming with a HMDS (TOPSIGHT). The MIG-29Ks have the TOPSIGHT-I and it was said the IAF's MIG-29UPGs would have the same HMDS but I'm not too sure about this anymore.

Yes, but because it was integraded several years ago. For the Jags, this will be a new capability and all recent HMS procurements were from Samtel. Infact, wasn't there some pics and reports about LCA testing a different helmet too.
Yes I am surprised by the HMS for Jags too, just another waste of money imo, since these fighters have to be escorted anyway, no point in upgrading them all with so many new techs, I even question the need of radars for all of them.
However, if it's true and after Litening, EL 2032, they also get Dash HMS, it should be likely that they get Python V missiles too, which would be rather hilarious if the Jags have better HMS / SR missile combos than the MKIs.

The timelines we are talking about ie 2015-2023 for the entire DARIN III upgrade to be completed will see the MKI's receive their MLUs and some, if not all, be upgraded to the "SUPER" std which will include a new HMDS and SR missile.

Also AFAIK these HMDS can be used for a2g targeting too and are very useful when flying nap of the earth and at night (as a pilot will have to look down less). But I do agree that it is a capability that,perhaps, was not essential.


Interesting how the IAF wants a HMDS on every fighter in its inventory come 2019-20. I guess this is what modern warfare looks like.

 

[sancho]

i am not sure-topsigt for mig29s and mirage.
Though navy got it(?)
mirage upgrade is too much $$!

Yes IAF and IN Migs have the Topsight, Mirage will get it, Rafale most likely too. That's why I am surprised about this report.

 

[sancho]

The timelines we are talking about ie 2015-2023 for the entire DARIN III upgrade to be completed will see the MKI's receive their MLUs and some, if not all, be upgraded to the "SUPER" std which will include a new HMDS and SR missile

The MKIs have HMS, but will remain with R73 missiles, even after the upgrade.

Interesting how the IAF wants a HMDS on every fighter in its inventory come 2019-20. I guess this is what modern warfare looks like.

Just that the Jags doesn't apply to modern warfare anymore, since it's not a multi role fighter. I also hope that they won't get the cluster bombs integrated, but the M2Ks, or Rafales. It hardly makes sense to integrate it into a fighter that has so limited future potential left.

As I said once, see the last produced 2 x squads to Afghanistan, limit the upgrade for the remaining once to basic life extentions and avionics for CAS roles and stick to more capable multi role fighters, would be the best for IAF!

 

[Abingdonboy]

The MKIs have HMS, but will remain with R73 missiles, even after the upgrade.



Just that the Jags doesn't apply to modern warfare anymore, since it's not a multi role fighter. I also hope that they won't get the cluster bombs integrated, but the M2Ks, or Rafales. It hardly makes sense to integrate it into a fighter that has so limited future potential left.

As I said once, see the last produced 2 x squads to Afghanistan, limit the upgrade for the remaining once to basic life extentions and avionics for CAS roles and stick to more capable multi role fighters, would be the best for IAF!

@sancho AFAIK the upgrade to the MKIs will come with a new HMDS- maybe the TOPSIGHT, maybe a new-gen HMDS from Russia (similar to what will be on the PAK-FA/FGFA).


And I agree the Jags have a very limited set of mission profiles and I'm sure that if the IAF could afford to lose a few more fighter SQDs it would drop these birds but in the face of delays on the Rafale procurement, LCA development, FGFA development and an ever declining SQD strength they've taken the decision to keep these girls around just a little longer.


I am more than confident the CBU-105s will be integrated onto the M2K,MKI and possibly even the Rafale. It would make no sense to buy such a system, invest so heavily in it just for one platform that will be out of service in 2 decades time. Also such a powerful weapon system mates to a plane like the M2KUPG/Rafale or MKI would be incredibly deadly and I'm sure this is not lost on the IAF.

but @sancho- I'd have serious reservations about giving any such a/c to the Afghans, they haven't proven themselves capable or professional enough to operate a helo or turboprop a/c let alone a jet fighter.

 

[sancho]

And I agree the Jags have a very limited set of mission profiles and I'm sure that if the IAF could afford to lose a few more fighter SQDs it would drop these birds but in the face of delays on the Rafale procurement, LCA development, FGFA development and an ever declining SQD strength they've taken the decision to keep these girls around just a little longer.

The delays can be countered, either by adding more LCA MK1 squads, or ordering the optional Rafales from France right away and the squadron strenght is falling only as a figure, not wrt actual capability of IAF.

but @sancho- I'd have serious reservations about giving any such a/c to the Afghans, they haven't proven themselves capable or professional enough to operate a helo or turboprop a/c let alone a jet fighter.

That's why I want to provide them with strike fighters only, that can be used in CAS roles for them, but wouldn't pose a threat to other nations and they could keep using these for more than a decade since they are new, while they are worthless even when the first upgraded Jag will arrive.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

But the same as on the LCA (another HAL/DRDO-led project). Interesting- I didn't realise the DARIN IIIs would be coming with a HMDS.

DARIN III has been rolled out already. What the Jaguar lacked was a suitably powered engine upto now. That Lacuna will now be covered. The IAF has found it to be a CAS/BAS aircraft with excellent low-level performance. But the lack of a suitable engine (pretty much from inception of the design) was its achilles heel. The DARIN I/II add-ons exceeded the OEM packages which made it exceptional in targeting abilities. That was its USP. But (contrary to some opinions here) it was never intended to be a multi-role/swing-role aircraft. Nor was it intended to be an autonomous performer always. Even in spite of the integration of the overwing AAM pylons or Radar. To start with; the Jags were designed with hull-mounted Laser Designators because Podded Lasers did not exist then. Only the advent of Laser/Opto-Electronic pods later allowed the incorporation of Multi-Mode Radars later which covered even that requirement. The day of the specialist/niche aircraft is not over yet. Which is why the IAF's romance with a/c like the MiG-29 and Jaguar is not yet finis.

 

[Abingdonboy]

DARIN III has been rolled out already. What the Jaguar lacked was a suitably powered engine upto now. That Lacuna will now be covered. The IAF has found it to be a CAS/BAS aircraft with excellent low-level performance. But the lack of a suitable engine (pretty much from inception of the design) was its achilles heel. The DARIN I/II add-ons exceeded the OEM packages which made it exceptional in targeting abilities. That was its USP. But (contrary to some opinions here) it was never intended to be a multi-role/swing-role aircraft. Nor was it intended to be an autonomous performer always. Even in spite of the integration of the overwing AAM pylons or Radar. To start with; the Jags were designed with hull-mounted Laser Designators because Podded Lasers did not exist then. Only the advent of Laser/Opto-Electronic pods later allowed the incorporation of Multi-Mode Radars later which covered even that requirement. The day of the specialist/niche aircraft is not over yet. Which is why the IAF's romance with a/c like the MiG-29 and Jaguar is not yet finis.

Sir, this is obvious isn't it? The Jag's basic design means it is never going to be a A2A fighter and can only really be solo-role. However the Mig-29 is being taken to the UPG which has significant A2G capabilities and is relatively multi-role. I have to say te day of specialist/niche a/c IS over- for the IAF atleast (or should be anyway, the JAG upgrade counts against my point).

That's why I want to provide them with strike fighters only, that can be used in CAS roles for them, but wouldn't pose a threat to other nations and they could keep using these for more than a decade since they are new, while they are worthless even when the first upgraded Jag will arrive.

@sancho sir, I have serious doubt whether the ANAF will even exist in a decade let alone flying Jags. It just seems unnecessarily provocative to Pakistan and entirely pointless- IMHO.

 

[sancho]

@sancho sir, I have serious doubt whether the ANAF will even exist in a decade let alone flying Jags. It just seems unnecessarily provocative to Pakistan and entirely pointless- IMHO.

In this case, the strenght of Afghan government to remain powerful against the Taliban, even after peace talks and the removal of the NATO troops is more important for the stability of the region, than issues with Pakistan. But as I said, the CAS capability is important for that, while the lack of A2A capability should make clear that it doesn't pose a threat to Pakistan anwayway.

 

[Abingdonboy]

In this case, the strenght of Afghan government to remain powerful against the Taliban, even after peace talks and the removal of the NATO troops is more important for the stability of the region, than issues with Pakistan. But as I said, the CAS capability is important for that, while the lack of A2A capability should make clear that it doesn't pose a threat to Pakistan anwayway.

Even with only A2G capability these Jags would pose a threat to Pakistani forces on the Afghan-Pak border or atleast would be perceived in this way by the Pakistanis. And of course having a stable Afghanistan is a must but I am growing increasingly pessimistic that Afghanistan will remain in anyway stable going into the future.