History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[BeyondHeretic]

I have a little question, why Vietnam script is different from its neighboring countries?

it's like Armenian

 

[Viet]

Dai Viet boasted that it "defeated" Ryukyu, after attacking a Ryukyuan ship.
Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books
Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

well, there are many things I never learn in school. Anyway it sounds to me that Ryukyuan pirates paid a visit to Dai Viet in 1480, and we spanked them, that´s all. 

Mandarin is official standard language,else a dialect.its proved by history.you should know what han is.when you talk about chinese "language",it does not mean to be heard by ear.

simply put, in the Vietnamese point of view, Mandarin is the language of Emperors and highcast people like public servants and Northerner, while dialects such as Cantonese are languages of lowcast people like merchants and peasants.

 

[Snomannen]

well, there are many things I never learn in school. Anyway it sounds to me that Ryukyuan pirates paid a visit to Dai Viet in 1480, and we spanked them, that´s all. 

simply put, in the Vietnamese point of view, Mandarin is the language of Emperors and highcast people like public servants and Northerner, while dialects such as Cantonese are languages of lowcast people like merchants and peasants.

"Mandarin" (Standard Han Chinese) is not always the same, it has been changing for several times in thousands year. For example, in Ming Dynasty, Mandarin was 南京官話 "Nanjing Mandarin", 雅音 in Zhou Dynasty and 北京官話/ 普通話 "Beijing Mandarin/ Modern Mandarin" from the middle period of Qing Dynasty to nowadays.
Cantonese inherits more influence from old Chinese than Mandarin does. When we are reading ancient poems, reading in Cantonese is always sound more accurate than in Mandarin.
Goddamnit you people's point of view is freaking weird. I really wonder what they teach you people at school.

 

[INDIC]

"Mandarin" (Standard Han Chinese) is not always the same, it has been changing for several times in thousands year. For example, in Ming Dynasty, Mandarin was 南京官話 "Nanjing Mandarin", 雅音 in Zhou Dynasty and 北京官話/ 普通話 "Beijing Mandarin/ Modern Mandarin" from the middle period of Qing Dynasty to nowadays.
Cantonese inherits more influence from old Chinese than Mandarin does. When we are reading ancient poems, reading in Cantonese is always sound more accurate than in Mandarin.
Goddamnit you people's point of view is freaking weird. I really wonder what they teach you people at school.

how such old poem sounds rhythmic when you don't pronounce the original ancient words while reading it.

 

[Snomannen]

Like this one:

登鸛雀樓 (王之渙)

白日依山盡，
黃河入海流。
欲窮千裡目，
更上一層樓。 Up the Stork Tower (Wang Zhi-Huan, 688-742 AD)

By the hills the sun loses its glows.
Into the sea the Yellow River flows.
To gain a three-hundred-mile view,
Keep climbing up a floor or few.

流：Cantonese (lau); Mandarin (liu)
樓：Cnatonese (lau); Mandarin (lou)

 

[Wholegrain]

Non stop telling a yoke ? Is was Madarin language newly created ? Its stranger ! then now Han Chinese in North don't understand what Cantonese are talking about.

When you don't understand each to other, You don't shared same language. Both of Mandarin language and Cantonese language (NanYue Language) in one family only.

The Nanyue language was a Tai language like Zhuang and the Li people in Hainan.

Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books

Antiquarianism and Intellectual Life in Europe and China, 1500-1800 - Google Books

The Pan-Pearl River Delta: An Emerging Regional Economy in a Globalizing China - Google Books

Cantonese are not Nanyue, they are descended from northern Han and Cantonese language is among the closest to Middle Chinese. Vietnamese

Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese which emerged in medieval times during the Song dynasty.

Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Mandarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Han Chinese and Cantonese could shared DNA from paternal line or any, its should happen in early time when Han tribes and NanYue tribes was in going from East Africa, South Asia on road to reach to mainland of China.

Look again your photo here below, there is two types of Han Chinese grouped in two diagrams: Northern Han and Southern Han whose don't shared same DNA. (not overlapped).

Moron, the studies I posted explicitly attributed the shared paternal DNA to Han migration from northern to southern China, the geneticists can tell at what historical time the geneflow occured through analyizing mutations etc. Northern and Southern Han share more Y chromosomnal DNA with each other than any other people and both have a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their majority marker which is the signature marker for Han ethnicity.

 

[EastSea]

The Nanyue language was a Tai language like Zhuang and the Li people in Hainan.

Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books

Antiquarianism and Intellectual Life in Europe and China, 1500-1800 - Google Books

The Pan-Pearl River Delta: An Emerging Regional Economy in a Globalizing China - Google Books

Cantonese are not Nanyue, they are descended from northern Han and Cantonese language is among the closest to Middle Chinese. Vietnamese

Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese which emerged in medieval times during the Song dynasty.

Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Mandarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Moron, the studies I posted explicitly attributed the shared paternal DNA to Han migration from northern to southern China, the geneticists can tell at what historical time the geneflow occured through analyizing mutations etc. Northern and Southern Han share more Y chromosomnal DNA with each other than any other people and both have a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their majority marker which is the signature marker for Han ethnicity.

Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:

"A group of languages that descend from a common ancestor is known as a language family.
The languages that are most spoken in the world today belong to the Indo-European family, which includes languages such as English, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Hindi;
the Sino-Tibetan family, which includes Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese, and many others;
the Afro-Asiatic family, which includes Arabic, Amharic, Somali, and Hebrew; and the Bantu languages, which include Swahili, Zulu, Shona, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout Africa. "

Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.

"The Cantonese language is also viewed as part of the cultural identity for the native speakers across large swathes of southern China, Hong Kong and Macau.
Although Cantonese shares much vocabulary with Mandarin Chinese, the two languages are not mutually intelligible because of pronunciation, grammatical, and also lexical differences.
Sentence structure, in particular the placement of verbs, sometimes differs between the two languages."

Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.

" No,most Southern Chinese are natives, for example in Guangdong, at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese"

History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 8

Population of Cantonese in Quangdong province is around 100 millions.

40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 40 Million native people NanYue in according to your theory that paternal lineage should decide the identity of each ethnic group. It should be 40 million Zhuang people in Canton.

I reminder you that Zhoang people in Quangdong is 0.7 %, less than 1 million only.

In case of 80 % Cantonese shared native maternal bloodline, understood that they are included above mentioned 40 % posses-ed paternal blood lineage, it mean 40 million Cantonese are native people, 20 million are mixed people, the rest amount to be a Han immigrants, to be 20 %, or in other wording 20 million Cantonese are mixed and 20 million pure Han people living today in Quangdong.

In case of 100 % of Cantonese are mixed, you don't shared same bloodline with Han Chinese.

Any case, there is confirmed by Chinese experts that: in China is existed two group of Han people: Southern Han and Northern Han.

 

[Wholegrain]

Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:



Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.




Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.

Wiki also states that Cantonese is among the closest Chinese language to Middle Chinese.

Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History[edit]

The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]
After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]

Cantonese language is closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin.

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 8

Population of Cantonese in Quangdong province is around 100 millions.

40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 40 Million native people NanYue in according to your theory that paternal lineage should decide the identity of each ethnic group. It should be 40 million Zhuang people in Canton.

I reminder you that Zhoang people in Quangdong is 0.7 %, less than 1 million only.

In case of 80 % Cantonese shared native maternal bloodline, understood that they are included above mentioned 40 % posses-ed paternal blood lineage, it mean 40 million Cantonese are native people, 20 million are mixed people, the rest amount to be a Han immigrants, to be 20 %, or in other wording 20 million Cantonese are mixed and 20 million pure Han people living today in Quangdong.

In case of 100 % of Cantonese are mixed, you don't shared same bloodline with Han Chinese.

Any case, there is confirmed by Chinese experts that: in China is existed two group of Han people: Southern Han and Northern Han.

Over 60-68% of Cantonese have paternal descent from northern Han. Ethnicity in Vietnam and China is traced through the father. Kinh, Han, Miao, Yao, Manchu, Mongol, and Koreans all trace ancestry through the father and ethnicity is inherited from the father. They are called patrilineal and patriarchial societies for a reason. Even today, the Minh Huong and Hoa in Vietnam trace their ancestry through their father. 60% is majority, do you know how to do math?

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).

When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.

This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.

Cantonese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】

According to a DNA Chinese study for all Han ethnic group. The average Cantonese paternal Y-DNA is 60% Han and 40% Baiyue while maternal mtDNA is 20% Han and 80% Baiyue. Of the Han paternal Y-DNA ancestry 10% is estimated to have came from during the Qin dynasty and 50% came from the Tang/Song dynasty 《人口研究》 - 中国各地DNA数据 [34]

We know full well that Cantonese and Hakka mtDNA (inherited from the mother) is from the natives, nobody tried to hide it because ethnicity isn't traced through the mother.

Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka--《Journal of Xi'an Jiaotong University(Medical Sciences)》2010年06期

Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka

LI Xiao-yun1,SU Min1,HUANG Hai-hua1,LI Hui2,TIAN Dong-ping1,GAO Yu-xia1(1.Department of Pathology,Key Immunopathology Laboratory of Guangdong Province,Medical College of Shantou University,Shantou 515031;2.State Key Laboratory ofGenetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies,School of Life Sciences,Fudan University,Shanghai 200433,China)
Objective Three ethnic populations of Han inhabitants in Guangdong Province,namely,Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka,descended from north-central China Han immigrants.Here we analyzed their genetic background differences based on mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) evidences reflecting matrilineal genetics.Methods Based on mtDNA variations,we inferred mtDNA haplogroups of 48 and 89 subjects from the Taihang and Chaoshan areas,respectively.mtDNA data of Cantonese and Hakka populations were quoted from published literature.We compared haplogroup distribution in the 3 ethnic populations with that in the Taihang Mountain population and the southern natives.Results The northern Han-dominating haplogroups were predominant in the Taihang Mountain population,while Cantonese and Hakka populations had southern natives-dominating haplogroups as their major haplogroups,and Chaoshan population possessed slightly higher frequency of northern haplogroups than southern haplogroups.The principal component analysis based on frequencies of mtDNA haplogroups showed that the Taihang Mountain population and Chaoshan population clustered together,and that Cantonese,Hakka and the southern natives clustered together.Conclusion Of the 3 ethnic populations,Chaoshan population alone possesses the purest lineage of north-central China Hans,and shows the closest genetic affinity to the Taihang Mountain population,which might be one of the reasons why Chaoshan population alone has become esophageal cancer high-risk population in the coast of southern China.Both Cantonese and Hakka populations show more gene flow from the southern natives in the maternal lineage.

 

[Wholegrain]

The majority of Northern and Southern Han Y chromosomes are the same, subclades of Y haplogroup O3.

 

[Snomannen]

Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:

Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.

Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.

How about you go read some tangible books and articles before playing with Wikipedia.

[Due to mutual unintelligibility and based on linguistic features, Western linguists tend to regard the fangyan (方言) as separate languages united under a cover term ‘Chinese’ (e.g. Barnes 1982, DeFrancis 1984, who also quotes Leonard Bloomfield). However, they usually defer to the views of Chinese linguists who consider them as dialects.]

[...the Chinese term fangyan (方言) defies exact translation into English (dialect)... fangyan (方言) and dialect represent radically different concepts.]

--What Is a Chinese ‘Dialect/Topolect’?

[Hence every dialect is a language, but not every language is a dialect.]

-- Dialect, Language, Nation

 

[INDIC]

In ancient time, our script was similar to Sanskrit, I think so. but in time of domination of China Han Ji (Chinese writing Characters) was used until 19th century.

Around 1500 AC, Portugal Christian missionaries came to Vietnam, they applied Latin alphabet to writing our language Vietnamese. "Viet- Portugal- Latin Dictionary" was first Dictionary printed in Roma (Italy) 1651. From beginning of 20th century we changed our script to Latin Alphabet.

 


I think, it's harmless, no kill, no make someone to be stronger.

it's like Armenian

Are you referring to champa script or Viets too had an Indian derived script.

 

[yue10]

Are you referring to champa script or Viets too had an Indian derived script.

the Viet have their own script?

they will try to tell you they have fire script, tadpole script, existing rich culture before Chinese came but somehow the Chinese banned all this and forced them to adopt Chinese culture, Zhuang people still under suzerain of Chinese living in Chinese lands is less Sinicised then these Annam pigs but for some reason they lost all culture and not Zhuang, an alien come down to earth would easily see they are massive copy cat of Chinese culture but they try to deny everything, it all come down to big chip on the shoulder

 

[Viet]

I know how Cantonese look, 20% of them look North Chinese, while 10% of them could pass as a Viet, but most of them are a mix between North China and the native people in South China.

VN school girls

HK school girls

 

[Viet]

the Viet have their own script?

they will try to tell you they have fire script, tadpole script, existing rich culture before Chinese came but somehow the Chinese banned all this and forced them to adopt Chinese culture, Zhuang people still under suzerain of Chinese living in Chinese lands is less Sinicised then these Annam pigs but for some reason they lost all culture and not Zhuang, an alien come down to earth would easily see they are massive copy cat of Chinese culture but they try to deny everything, it all come down to big chip on the shoulder

Don´t resort to insulting, you clown! we are more than just a copy cat, we have adopted what fit best to our cultures and custom. So we have our own indigenous stuffs (for example a strong role of women in the society and relatively independent villages before Emperor) and then we add some ingredients of Chinese, French, Indic Champa as well as American.

Do Chinese have similar clothes as seen below?

 

[yue10]

let us look the Viet history and mentality to understand how much pathetic they are try to rewrite and teach the Chinese their own history

The earliest event recorded as historical in a Vietnamese source comes from the Viet su luoc and is dated in the reign of a Chinese king, Chuang of Chou, who reigned from 696 to 682 B.C. Eighteen generations separated Chuang of Chou from the end of his dynasty. Vietnamese historians seem to have inherited a tradition of eighteen generations of Hung kings, coming to an end simultaneously with the Chinese house of Chou

here supposedly 18 generation of Hung Kings is directly copied off Chinese

Ly Ong Trong was a Vietnamese giant supposedly sent as tribute from King An Duong to Ch’in Shih Huang Ti; after a distinguished career fighting the Hsiung-nu on the empire’s northern frontier, he returned to his native village and died there. However, Ly Ong Trong’s cult was established by a ninth-century Chinese governor in Vietnam, so it probably had little to do with events in the time of King An Duong

here trying to claim Ly Ong Trong has something to do with them when it was established by Chinese in 9th century

In the fifteenth century, when Confucian thought first dominated the Vietnamese court, historians seeking to extend the genealogy of Confucian practice as far as possible into the past recorded the 1070 shrine as a Temple of Literature (Van Mieu), which indeed it became in the fifteenth century, a type of temple that in Ming China was dedicated to Confucius. However, the first Van Mieu in China was built in 1410, so an eleventh-century Van Mieu in Vietnam is implausible. After years of dereliction during the twentieth-century wars, the Van Mieu in Hanoi has been rebuilt and is now a major tourist site, claimed as the first university in Vietnam.

here the pathetic Viets so desperate to claim a part of Confucianism got their dates all mixed up

from these lies already we can see that their history is all BS and does not belong to them, the Annam pigs were never civilised before contact with Chinese so they wrote their history by reading the Chinese history books and picking out certain things and claiming it as theirs 

Don´t resort to insulting, you clown! we are more than just a copy cat, we have adopted what fit best to our cultures and custom. So we have our own indigenous stuffs (for example a strong role of women in the society and relatively independent villages before Emperor) and then we add some ingredients of Chinese, French, Indic Champa as well as American.

Do Chinese have similar clothes as seen below?

qipao..... , sorry qipao is the Manchu lolz, I am too eager to troll sometimes


 
Dong Son – Bronze drum
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.
In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.

lolz 'cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were' but in the modern day they claim bronze drum was proof of Viet civilisation of the Lac Viet

again we are seeing the stealing of other peoples culture when it have nothing to do with them, I will guess if there were no records of Chams, these Annam pigs will probably try to steal their relics as well 
why the hell everything go in one post?