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History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

Austro-asiatic/Mon-Khmer influence on Old Chinese

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp202_old_sinitic_roots.pdf

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http://books.google.com/books?id=nI...ScreenShot2013-11-04at93936PM_zps46c3c1f7.png

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Just a few examples. There are much more in that book alone and in the works of other linguists.
 
Should they have a record of how, when and where Viets replaced Tais in Northern Vietnam if Viets weren't there in the first place?
I doubt that the Chinese totally ignored what happened in Giao Chi
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. Such a damn large population who took over the area should have prompted more detailed descriptions of who they were, where they were from, and their movements
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or some kinds of recorded history involving them in Khmer, Champa, Tai and Chinese history
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"Kinh" means city or town, a word to distinguish them from the people who live in the mountains as "Thượng". If it had been Tai who interacted with Chinese in the Tonkin area many centuries before Viets "took over", remember after Han Chinese conquered the area, they attempted to destroy the local culture and "Han-ized" the area, then the Tai should have been already strongly influenced by Sino culture as the result, but they weren't! and Viets wouldn't have absorbed that much Han-Viet vocabulary in such a short time.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp017_yue.pdf
"However, as argued above, raised dwellings appear to be a response to specific
environmental conditions and are constructed by many different ethnic groups
living in southwestern China, Southeast Asia, and Polynesia today
. As a trait, they
serve better to distinguish northern Han Chinese houses from Southeast Asian. It
is well known that in traditional Southeast Asian villages today, Chinese merchants
usually live in ground level houses, often made of poured concrete, whereas the
local people prefer raised houses constructed from wood and bamboo."

Another cultural trait frequently cited as diagnostic of both Yue and Tai culture is
skill in metallurgy, especially illustrated in the production of bronze, mushroom-
shaped drums. Ethnographically, however, these drums are associated today with
not only Tai speakers, but Miao (Miao-Yao, a branch of Sino-Tibetan), Karens (a
branch of Sino-Tibetan) and others. The distribution of these drums is very wide -
they are found in Yunnan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Guangdong, Vietnam, northern
Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and even out into the Malayo-Ponesian
archipelago
(Smith and Watson 1979, Appendix: 495-507). Historically, the drums
span the mid-first millennium B.C. up to the 14th century A.D. As a marker of Tai
ethnicity, they are, at best, problematic.


Finally, Jiang and Li suggest characteristics such as wet rice agriculture and a
highly developed water technology (a common saying among Chinese is that Tai
love water and build their villages along river banks). This statement is so
generalized as to be practically meaningless.


In the end, when we review the nature of the suggested Tai cultural
characteristics which are supposed to link them with the Hundred Yue, it would
appear that they serve more as markers distinguishing Southeast Asian cultures
from Han Chinese, and more specifically, lowland Southeast Asian cultures --
cultures which would include not only Tai speaking groups, but Mon and
Austronesian speakers as well."
 
On top of that there are still Austro-asiatic speaking tribes dwelling in Southern China today.

Austro-asiatic speakers in China.

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There are very few or no bronze drum at all found in Guangdong and Fujian of China even though 2500 years ago, Guangdong and Fujian were still uninvaded by the Han. Most bronze drums are found in Southwest China - Yunnan, Guangxi, Guizhou...not Southeast in China.

The association of bronze drums to all Yue people are therefore problematic because many Yue tribes lived in Fujian, Guangdong - the coastal area of China and bronze drums have not been found here.

Only some Yue groups produced bronze drums. There were the Luoyue of Northern Vietnam and the Dianyue of Yunnan. Nanyue and Minyue did not produce bronze drums.
 
Rye, are you a Viet? I wonder about your good historic knowlegde.
 
Poor dumb monkey @EastSea

China calls on Japan to respect historical facts

Tokyo is a PLACE NAME. All place names in Vietnam, China, Korea, and Japan are writen with the same characters, they have nothing to do with grammatical structure of the language like whether adjectives or nouns go first, or whether the language uses the same verbs, pronouns and regular nouns. Vietnamese Chu Nom will write place names like Guangdong 廣東 the same way, but the pronouns, word order and verbs are all different.

I can add Japanese to the list

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人

vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗
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廣東

Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です
 
Poor dumb monkey @EastSea

China calls on Japan to respect historical facts

Tokyo is a PLACE NAME. All place names in Vietnam, China, Korea, and Japan are writen with the same characters, they have nothing to do with grammatical structure of the language like whether adjectives or nouns go first, or whether the language uses the same verbs, pronouns and regular nouns. Vietnamese Chu Nom will write place names like Guangdong 廣東 the same way, but the pronouns, word order and verbs are all different.

I can add Japanese to the list

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人

vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗
2029A.gif
廣東

Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です

Language at first is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.

When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !

cantonese say: nei ho, ngoh si yan.

Minnan say: lí hó, góa sī lâng.

hakka say: ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.

Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.

Understand ? poor chinese monkey.
 
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Language at first is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.

When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !

cantonese say: nei ho, ngoh si yan.

Minnan say: lí hó, góa sī lâng.

hakka say: ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.

Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.

Understand ? poor chinese monkey.

Who told you that everyone in the world must follow this standard to define "language".

There are huge differences between different Japanese dialects and people are hardly understand each others:

私は方言を研究してはいるが、実際農村や漁村で使われている言葉は、聞いてもわからないものが多い。

but they still consider different Japanese dialects are "dialects 方言", not "languages"

日 本では、共通語と方言の違いが相当激しい。これがヨーロッパあたりへ行くと、スペイン語とポルトガル語の違いは、青森県の言葉と福島県の言葉ぐらいの違い しかない。それでもれっきとした二つの国語である。ちょっと聞くとスペイン語とポルトガル語が話せるなんていうのは、何か非常に偉いような気がする。しか し本当は、青森県の言葉と共通語が話せるということは、もっと違った言葉を使い分けることができることなのである。よく日本人は語学が下手だと言われる が、これは大間違いで、日本人のほうが語学の天才かもしれない。
-- 金田一春彦 (Japanese Linguist)
 
Austro asiatic are you joking? They all look like the asians
 
@Fattyacids this thread is very informative.

I know 90% what all these are about. The pariah of Han trying to discredit Han by rewriting history, LOL. What's new? Everyone in China knows that, they have big chip on their shoulders. Even Koreans claim Confucius was korean and they invented chinese script, :rofl:
They may be able to fool people like Indians and others, but all East Asians know the historical truth. And there's no better person to rebut them than our graduate researcher @Wholegrain.
 
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Language at first is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.

When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !

cantonese say: nei ho, ngoh si yan.

Minnan say: lí hó, góa sī lâng.

hakka say: ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.

Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.

Understand ? poor chinese monkey.

Poor dumb baboon, Cantonese people are not the nanyue natives. Cantonese people call themselves "men of Tang" 唐人 because many of their ancestors were Han from northern China who migrated south during the Tang dynasty. Cantonese language is descended from Old Chinese like Mandarin.

The native Nanyue people were Tai speaking people like Zhuang and not Cantonese.

Cantonese is even closer phonologically to Old and Middle Chinese than Mandarin. Cantonese preserves Old and Middle Chinese finals like k, t, and initials like Ng.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

From Middle Chinese to Modern Cantonese (Part 2).

ERIC - From Middle Chinese to Modern Cantonese (Part 2)., Journal of Chinese Linguistics, 1984

ONLY the Pinghua speakers of Guangxi are more closely related to the Nanyue (Daic Tai peoples) than they are to Han. Everyone else, inclulding Cantonese, are paternally descended from Han.

Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: Pinghua population as an exception of Han Chinese's coherent genetic structure

Pinghua - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tanka are descended from natives

Cooley's anaemia among the tanka of South China

In Taiwan, most Minnan Taiwanese are descended from Han men who moved from mainland and married aborigibal women. The saying is "有唐山公,無唐山媽" (mainland grandfather, no mainland grandmother). The mainland is referred to as "Tang mountain", since Minnan people are descended from Han who moved to Fujian during the Tang dynasty.

We have records of Han families fleeing from northern China to Fujian.

Portrait of a Community: Society, Culture, and the Structures of Kinship in ... - Hugh R. Clark - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).

When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.

This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.

Only Cantonese and Hakka mtdna (maternal dna inherited from the mother) is native to nanyue. Their parernal DNA (from the father) is Han.

Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka--《Journal of Xi'an Jiaotong University(Medical Sciences)》2010年06期

In Han, Vietnamese, Manchu, Mongol, Miao (Hmong), Yao (Mien), and Korean culture, ethnicity is determined by the father. You are your father's ethnic group, not your mother, because all of them are patrilineal and patriarchial cultures. In Vietnam, the Minh Huong are traced through their father's ancestry from China and not their ancestry through their mother's ancestry, which is from Vietnamese women.

Water Frontier: Commerce and the Chinese in the Lower Mekong Region, 1750-1880 - Google Books

Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books

History Without Borders: The Making of an Asian World Region, 1000-1800 - Geoffrey C. Gunn - Google Books

Nguyễn Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries - Tana Li - Google Books

Appetites and Aspirations in Vietnam: Food and Drink in the Long Nineteenth ... - Erica J. Peters - Google Books

The Flaming Womb: Repositioning Women in Early Modern Southeast Asia - Barbara Watson Andaya - Google Books

Ethnic Chinese as Southeast Asians - Google Books
 
I know how Cantonese look, 20% of them look North Chinese, while 10% of them could pass as a Viet, but most of them are a mix between North China and the native people in South China.

Even Germans from South Germany are not pure Germanic, they are a mix of Germanic and Celtic, while those from East Germany might even have a lot of Slavic blood.

Then according to our Viet friends here, the South and East of Germany should declare the independence. This makes no sense at all.
 
Question to Vietnamese : What do you thing about that first dynasty, the one which lasted for one or two thousands years I don't remember : Is it just a myth or are you really believing it ?
 
Question to Vietnamese : What do you thing about that first dynasty, the one which lasted for one or two thousands years I don't remember : Is it just a myth or are you really believing it ?
Do you mean Hung Kings, period of 2879-258 before Christ?

It is a mix of myth, legend, superstition and hearsay. The problem is it lacks of historical records. Anyway any kid learns that Hung Kings existed in school, and the government declares the 10th day of the 3rd lunar month as public holiday, Hung King Commemoriations (Giỗ tổ Hùng Vương). Interesting, UNESCO granted a certificate recognizing the worship of Hung Kings in Phu Tho as an intangible culture heritage of humanity.

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Poor dumb baboon, Cantonese people are not the nanyue natives. Cantonese people call themselves "men of Tang" 唐人 because many of their ancestors were Han from northern China who migrated south during the Tang dynasty. Cantonese language is descended from Old Chinese like Mandarin.

Native NanYue people (cantonese) are call by Kinh people as "Ngô" people, because they said: "我" with sound: "ngộ" similier to sound "Ngô" in Vietnamese.

When Tang Dynasty ís collapsed in China, people escaped from North China to South, they called themselves as Tang_ren, such people were related to other minorities No_Hans, like Turks or Xiongnu descendant, they were Hakka or Hokkien peoples.
T
he military of the Tang Dynasty was staffed with a large population of Turkic soldiers, referred to as Tujue in Chinese sources. Tang elites in northern China were familiar with Turkic culture, a factor that contributed to the Tang acceptance of Turkic recruits. The Tang emperor Taizong adopted the title of "Heavenly Kaghan" and promoted a cosmopolitan empire.
military.Turks in the Tang military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Cantonese is even closer phonologically to Old and Middle Chinese than Mandarin. Cantonese preserves Old and Middle Chinese finals like k, t, and initials like Ng.

Yoke. Cantonese speak Old and Middle Chinese Mandarin, but Han Chinese whose were creators of original Mandarin language can not understand. What kind is funny story you're telling here ?


In Taiwan, most Minnan Taiwanese are descended from Han men who moved from mainland and married aborigibal women. The saying is "有唐山公,無唐山媽" (mainland grandfather, no mainland grandmother). The mainland is referred to as "Tang mountain", since Minnan people are descended from Han who moved to Fujian during the Tang dynasty.

Taiwan is another story. From ancient time to around 1700 years AC, Taiwan was independent state.

We have records of Han families fleeing from northern China to Fujian.

Immigrants to Fujian were first from WuYue.


Only Cantonese and Hakka mtdna (maternal dna inherited from the mother) is native to nanyue. Their parernal DNA (from the father) is Han.

The paternal DNA of some cantonese (from fathers) is should be a same as North Hans because in ancient time, about 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia. There were Cantonese, MinYue, WuYue and Han people.

read more here. trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese
 
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