High rates of Divorce in Pak society and esp in Military class

[ARMalik]

Stumbled upon this thread went and through few pages first and then through all, decided to summarize the opinions between categories which are:

· Feminist type

· Religious type

· Fantasy type

· Illogical argumentative type

· Understanding type

Generally it is the last type who have real idea of the challenges of marriage, first three types to me seem more like what they expect the relationship to be whether from the female perspective or male perspective.

Being married for over two decades with a lady; both of us coming from two entirely different backgrounds and language proficiency, never seen or met each other before the day of “nikah”, not even informed about it, put into an arranged marriage during their college/uni days I think I have a fair idea about how marriages work and don’t work.

Let me establish one thing first Allah has created both men and women but he gave more compassion to women as compared to men; with compassion comes sensitivity women are much more sensitive to any stimuli as compared to men. A simple comment like “you are looking good” can have different responses from a male and a female, the male would acknowledge it and forget about it after 5 minutes, while a lady would start mulling over it and at the first opportunity would stand in front of a mirror and check herself from every angle and if god forbid she finds any flaw that’s it; I’ll leave further repercussions to imagination. It’s not about ridiculing them or making fun of ladies it’s just establishing that they are much more sensitive than their brutish counterparts.

Now the topic of the thread seems pretty naiive to me, high divorce rate in Forces linked families, and that number comes to 4 no offense, Army’s strength ballpark is over half a million 4 out of half million doesn’t even register. I know military families which have been happily married for over 5 decades, 3 decades, many of my class mates are in the forces, many of my navy batch mates have been married for over two decades now and except for one I haven’t seen cases of divorce and I am not talking about 4 cases I am talking about 300 plus families and these are just my class/course mates what does it prove nothing.

Correct statement would be divorce rate has increased exponentially in Pakistan as well just like the rest of the world where divorce is spreading like an airborne viral infection.

Marriage is a social contract and as such carries obligations on part of both parties, it also requires important ingredients like tolerance, adaptability and flexibility on part of both parties. Ours is a unique society where joint family system having its pro about the institution of marriage has its serious cons as well.

Much as I hate to say I’ll quote something someone said to females of his family after his marriage and they are “women are the worst enemy of women, and mothers are the worst among them all they have two spectacles one for daughter in which everything is bright and sunny son in law bringing their daughter every weekend to meet them is good, the other spectacles reserved for daughter in law shows everything dark and gloomy if son takes his wife to her parents once in a month then it’s being a rann mureed, first they have this uncontrolled desire to bring daughter in law, for which they insult and reject countless girls, break their hearts with very unkind comments and when they finally find a match, they are unwilling to share their son with her post marriage. You have to understand this she has spent her whole life in another family with different norms, may be different culture has been raised and cared like an expensive doll, she is a human being and you are expecting her to adopt to your values in a week. Have you given her any comfort, have you tried to understand why she is doing/acting the way she is doing may be she has a different perspective on things, would you be ok if same happened to your own daughter, what do you think she is a piece of paper whom you would pass through the photocopier of your values and it will be copied instantly? she is a human being not a damn servant or slave”

@blain2 has effectively highlighted some points about challenges of marriage in forces families, many a times husband even officer is posted in a far off front “Siachen” is a typical example for Army and “submariner” is a typical example for Navy families. If the lady is a career oriented one and working in the corporate world a transfer/posting to another place is not really congenial to career. Besides what is the fun in first having education for daughters (despite the fact I have seen certain families discriminate between sons and daughters education, good school universities for son and average for daughters) and then expecting them to give it all up and become house maids. Women of today want to be independent financially as well and that transfer in armed forces families doesn’t get along the career so well. Of course there are excesses on both sides but I am talking in general terms there are families/husbands where women is nothing more than a house maid with no value and then there are women to whom marriage is nothing more than a burden.

I will try and put in few more words later. The impact of media/social media and the misconception about religion regarding marriage later.

Fantastic post! ... this exactly what happens! I have experienced it first hand the duplicity of your own loved ones. It came to me as a complete shock.

 

[ps3linux]

Fantastic post! ... this exactly what happens! I have experienced it first hand the duplicity of your own loved ones. It came to me as a complete shock.

Human nature my friend, human nature. My mom never really forgave me completely for my "unkind comments", but she took it very decently and things moved very smoothly thereon, with a pleasant side effect I became hero to my brother/sister in law and brother in law.

One of the first few things one learns as a manger is to acknowledge/appreciate in front of audience, while reprimand in person where others are not listening; unfortunately in family relations particularly I see daughter in law is normally reprimanded/insulted in front of everyone else even unrelated parties, many men too take pleasure in insulting their wives in front of others. It all starts with the first meal the poor girl makes after marriage where its quality is dissected in front of everyone the poor girl could never get her confidence back again. Was invited by a recently married educated family for iftar (relatives), and there was slightly lower level of salt on Pakoras made by the new-daughter-in-law and I was so offended by the ignorance of the whole family who while trying to prove how much they have “neechay laga kay rakha hua hai” the new addition were taunting and belittling the poor girl who was fasting herself. My better half and I tried to hammer it through their dumb skulls that the poor girl had no experience of making pakoras for a large gathering and besides she was fasting too how could she have tasted it during fasting, this is just one example of pure stupidity. Eventually that marriage ended within a year.

Unfortunately in our society this is very much a common theme, there are definitely cases of daughter in law being too stubborn, ill-mannered and hostile towards in laws right from the word go.

My experience is that the decision regarding make/break of marriage is made within the first month the important matter is when the announcement is made.

Another aspect is that the girl has left her life/family behind is under lot of emotional and physical stress, the time where she needs a shoulder to cry on and that is provided by her life partner, if that life partner is not up to the mark, cannot be her confidant rather ridicules her in front of other or a party to them she will definitely not like to be associated with such a man.

I have studied Islam extensively and I have yet to find a woman’s obligation towards father/mother in law. Once asked such a pious Muslim who was bickering about his wife on her back that she doesn’t take care of her inlaws including his brother and sisters, before that preached me about the importance of Shari Parda, my question did put him in bit of a strange position that she is supposed to do pardah from her father in law and brothers in law and why the hell would she be washing the under garments of his brothers and his father, ever thought of that?

I am a pindi’id not in the true sense but was born there so Islamabad is just a few minutes’ drive away, Dr. Farahat Hashmi was forced to leave Pakistan not because of her religious belief’s but because she had started to create awareness among woman of highly educated families about their rights in accordance with Shariah. Men had started becoming threatened and it was a widely discussed topic in Islamabad circles particularly Islamabad club, serena, marriot and few other places in most of the cases she was the villain stuffing the women’s heads with rebellious ideas.

Most of time I see people talking about shariah and islam in marriage when it comes to duties of the woman towards them, I have rarely seen people discussing about their obligations towards women, I mean why the hell people don’t want to give respect to their women, just to prove their machoism. Washing dishes with wife or helping her cook food why are they such “run mureed” activities, I know people, areas where beating up wife, mother, sister, daughter, sister in law, mother in law, daughter in law are a norm.

Domestic violence not just physical but emotional are they key to breakup, I have mentioned somewhere else we Pakistanis are not trained to be independent thinkers and are always in search of a confidant an advisor, in domestic situations for man it is the family/friends who would “teach him” to be “a man” and in females cases it’s the mother/sister/friends who would teach her to “sabaq sikhao”

In our society visiting daughter’s house after marriage is not really encouraged, previously by the time the family learned about a “fight” between their daughter and her inlaws the situation would have normalized and patched up, but nowadays the moment it happened status is updated on facebook/insta or shared via whatsapp and both sides “wise a**holes” come in with their “pearls of wisdom” which instead of diffusing the situation rather add fuel to the fire. It’s all about machoism and “sabaq sikhana hai” and no one talks about religion then the lesson of tolerance and compassion. Strange ain’t it.

I have deliberately not addressed the point of substance abuse by certain men to prove their manhood to their wives and many a time they result in divorce, and I have seen few examples where parents despite knowing their son is not able to keep a wife physically have managed to get their sons married, marriages which ended in disaster.

PTSD is an established condition, the horrors of borders and tough places like Waziristan, siachen, submarines does strange things to men, I know very few cases where divorce in mid rank officers was due to this reason.

Divorce due to economic reasons yes they are there, I will try and discuss about them and dynamics of love marriage vs arranged marriage some other time.

To summarize divorce is nothing new, study the context of “Surah e Talaq” what were the arabs of the time doing when the verses of this surah were revealed to Prophet PBUH, it was prevalent then; and on the rise again now in all human society not just the Army.

I am not a liberal, not a feminist, not a supporter of any stupid movement, not a fundamentalist but an Islamist human, who has tried to understand religion Islam for himself rather than allowing others to tell me about it and understood that Islam is all about humanity,human values and a religion of nature.

@Dubious

 

[ARMalik]

Human nature my friend, human nature. My mom never really forgave me completely for my "unkind comments", but she took it very decently and things moved very smoothly thereon, with a pleasant side effect I became hero to my brother/sister in law and brother in law.

One of the first few things one learns as a manger is to acknowledge/appreciate in front of audience, while reprimand in person where others are not listening; unfortunately in family relations particularly I see daughter in law is normally reprimanded/insulted in front of everyone else even unrelated parties, many men too take pleasure in insulting their wives in front of others. It all starts with the first meal the poor girl makes after marriage where its quality is dissected in front of everyone the poor girl could never get her confidence back again. Was invited by a recently married educated family for iftar (relatives), and there was slightly lower level of salt on Pakoras made by the new-daughter-in-law and I was so offended by the ignorance of the whole family who while trying to prove how much they have “neechay laga kay rakha hua hai” the new addition were taunting and belittling the poor girl who was fasting herself. My better half and I tried to hammer it through their dumb skulls that the poor girl had no experience of making pakoras for a large gathering and besides she was fasting too how could she have tasted it during fasting, this is just one example of pure stupidity. Eventually that marriage ended within a year.

Unfortunately in our society this is very much a common theme, there are definitely cases of daughter in law being too stubborn, ill-mannered and hostile towards in laws right from the word go.

My experience is that the decision regarding make/break of marriage is made within the first month the important matter is when the announcement is made.

Another aspect is that the girl has left her life/family behind is under lot of emotional and physical stress, the time where she needs a shoulder to cry on and that is provided by her life partner, if that life partner is not up to the mark, cannot be her confidant rather ridicules her in front of other or a party to them she will definitely not like to be associated with such a man.

I have studied Islam extensively and I have yet to find a woman’s obligation towards father/mother in law. Once asked such a pious Muslim who was bickering about his wife on her back that she doesn’t take care of her inlaws including his brother and sisters, before that preached me about the importance of Shari Parda, my question did put him in bit of a strange position that she is supposed to do pardah from her father in law and brothers in law and why the hell would she be washing the under garments of his brothers and his father, ever thought of that?

I am a pindi’id not in the true sense but was born there so Islamabad is just a few minutes’ drive away, Dr. Farahat Hashmi was forced to leave Pakistan not because of her religious belief’s but because she had started to create awareness among woman of highly educated families about their rights in accordance with Shariah. Men had started becoming threatened and it was a widely discussed topic in Islamabad circles particularly Islamabad club, serena, marriot and few other places in most of the cases she was the villain stuffing the women’s heads with rebellious ideas.

Most of time I see people talking about shariah and islam in marriage when it comes to duties of the woman towards them, I have rarely seen people discussing about their obligations towards women, I mean why the hell people don’t want to give respect to their women, just to prove their machoism. Washing dishes with wife or helping her cook food why are they such “run mureed” activities, I know people, areas where beating up wife, mother, sister, daughter, sister in law, mother in law, daughter in law are a norm.

Domestic violence not just physical but emotional are they key to breakup, I have mentioned somewhere else we Pakistanis are not trained to be independent thinkers and are always in search of a confidant an advisor, in domestic situations for man it is the family/friends who would “teach him” to be “a man” and in females cases it’s the mother/sister/friends who would teach her to “sabaq sikhao”

I our society visiting daughter’s house after marriage is not really encouraged, previously by the time the family learned about a “fight” between their daughter and her inlaws the situation would have normalized and patched up, but nowadays the moment it happened status is updated on facebook/insta or shared via whatsapp and both sides “wise a**holes” come in with their “pearls of wisdom” which instead of diffusing the situation rather add fuel to the fire. It’s all about machoism and “sabaq sikhana hai” and no one talks about religion then the lesson of tolerance and compassion. Strange ain’t it.

I have deliberately not addressed the point of substance abuse by certain men to prove their manhood to their wives and many a time they result in divorce, and I have seen few examples where parents despite knowing their son is not able to keep a wife physically have managed to get their sons married, marriages which ended in disaster.

PTSD is an established condition, the horrors of borders and tough places like Waziristan, siachen, submarines does strange things to men, I know very few cases where divorce in mid rank officers was due to this reason.

Divorce due to economic reasons yes they are there, I will try and discuss about them and dynamics of love marriage vs arranged marriage some other time.

To summarize divorce is nothing new, study the context of “Surah e Talaq” what were the arabs of the time doing when the verses of this surah were revealed to Prophet PBUH, it was prevalent then; and on the rise again now in all human society not just the Army.

I am not a liberal, not a feminist, not a supporter of any stupid movement, not a fundamentalist but an Islamist human, who have tried to understand religion Islam for himself rather than allowing others to tell me about it and understood that Islam is all about humanity,human values and a religion of nature.

Brilliant! Have you considered writing a book on the subject mate cause you are damn good at it!

I moved out of the country a long time ago when I was still in my teens. A bit of a self-made person. Through life experience, a few values became critical to me. These were values such a keeping once promises, be truthful and doing what is right no matter what. After my marriage in Pakistan, I experienced first hand how my loved ones were trying to belittle my partner. Being the person I am, I put a stop to it. But it was bitter sweet as the loved ones started to question my 'Loyalties'. It was a a very awkward experience to start with. I am still dealing with it but not to the extent when it first occurred. But what you wrote above is what a lot of newly weds specially girls are going through. It is sad state of affairs.

 

[ps3linux]

Brilliant! Have you considered writing a book on the subject mate cause you are damn good at it!

I moved out of the country a long time ago when I was still in my teens. A bit of a self-made person. Through life experience, a few values became critical to me. These were values such a keeping once promises, be truthful and doing what is right no matter what. After my marriage in Pakistan, I experienced first hand how my loved ones were trying to belittle my partner. Being the person I am, I put a stop to it. But it was bitter sweet as the loved ones started to question my 'Loyalties'. It was a a very awkward experience to start with. I am still dealing with it but not to the extent when it first occurred. But what you wrote above is what a lot of newly weds specially girls are going through. It is sad state of affairs.

So I have been told that I have the gift, already writing a science fiction series, actual have ideas for four series if life ever gives me time to pen down all of them, this topic I don't know its a boring one and who would read such a book, but thanks for the suggestion if I ever decide to write on the topic I will use this materiel as a stepping stone.

You seem to be my type of person, don't tell me that you went abroad between 16-19 years of age, initially family picked up the bill for education but you were proud enough to work your butt off to contribute in your fee bill, picked up your morality less from good examples and more from those things that did hurt you? or am i wrong?

I know the feeling its the closer relation which hurt the most, and some of the words well they do hurt for years.

Unfortunately our society takes a perverse pleasure in hurting others more emotionally "sabaq sikhana" and where possible physically, life is not about teaching others lesson it is more about learning more lessons. To second your values I am 100% with you on that, in fact I learned this long time ago a son doesn't necessarily follow his fathers advise rather follows his footsteps, so I made sure to never ever break any promise with them, tried my best not to lie with them, never ever did speak about any one in a negative way on their back in front of our boys, never gave them a shut up call for asking a question no matter how stupid, never asked them to shut up for speaking their mind, never scolded them for any loss they did no matter how much it amounted to and always extended respect and care towards their mother.

Well lets see how they eventually grow up to be.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

There definitely are cultural and moral deficiencies that are translating into military. That is, issues in the larger society play into military families as well... Women must be stronger and know that if they have strength to live and bear children in the absence of their husbands when needed and raise a generation that is well rounded, cultured and faithful... it will be transition in itself.

That being said, I take strong exception to calling educated women raising their own kids and managing familial affairs as equivalent somehow to being a "maid".

 

[ARMalik]

You seem to be my type of person, don't tell me that you went abroad between 16-19 years of age, initially family picked up the bill for education but you were proud enough to work your butt off to contribute in your fee bill, picked up your morality less from good examples and more from those things that did hurt you? or am i wrong?

Yes that pretty much sums up what happened ! I didn't want to put any financial pressure on my parents. Worked my butt off to ensure that I went to one of the best Universities here. Educated myself to a very high level - got multi-disciplined. Started off with smaller jobs but then very fortunate to get an opportunity to get involve in mega projects. Through life experience and specially through experiences which hurt, I learnt a lot.

 

[niaz]

I have been married for more than 50 years and guess this experience permits me to post my comments as being pertinent to this topic.

My wife is the cousin of one of my classmates from Lahore. We met because my friend used to stay at her house when he visited Karachi. We have had our ups & downs over the long period but the disagreements never reached the stage which would result in a split. I do know quite a few who are divorced, all except one because both the husband & wife had their own careers. My younger brother had married a Nurse in the USA, they divorced after 10 years.

My wife’s cousin (my classmate) married a Doctor and the marriage also ended up in divorce. My uncle's daughter also doctor married another doctor but the marriage broke up because of ‘Irreconcilable’ differences. The lone exception was a friend (son of a wealthy landed family) who, not satisfied with philandering, engaged in a secret second marriage. When the secret was out, his wife (also his cousin) asked for ‘Khula’

In my experience belonging to a particular class such as the Military has nothing to do with the breakup of a marriage. IMHO the reasons for divorce in my country are:

1. Infertility - lack of the birth of a child within 3 years. Chronic diseases and mental problems could also be one of the major reasons for divorce.

2. Financial difficulties due to loss of job or business failure of the male spouse. More often the case with the affluent families where the wife is not used to prolonged financial hardships.

3. Real or imagine infidelity. Mostly in middle-class families; where both husbands and wives are working, the
absence of trust can lead to a real or perceived lack of fidelity.

4. In a patriarchal society, such as in Pakistan, the men dominate the women in more than one manner. This often leads to verbal and even physical domestic abuse.

5. Financial independence of the wives. Most independently financially strong wives are often less willing to comprise, eventually resulting in the marriage break up.

All said and done Divorce rate in Pakistan at roughly 5 per thousand marriages is still quite low. This shows that most of the Pakistani marriages, whether arranged or thru love or even forced as in many rural areas, seem to be working.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I have been married for more than 50 years and guess this experience permits me to post my comments as being pertinent to this topic.

My wife is the cousin of one of my classmates from Lahore. We met because my friend used to stay at her house when he visited Karachi. We have had our ups & downs over the long period but the disagreements never reached the stage which would result in a split. I do know quite a few who are divorced, all except one because both the husband & wife had their own careers. My younger brother had married a Nurse in the USA, they divorced after 10 years.

My wife’s cousin (my classmate) married a Doctor and the marriage also ended up in divorce. My uncle's daughter also doctor married another doctor but the marriage broke up because of ‘Irreconcilable’ differences. The lone exception was a friend (son of a wealthy landed family) who, not satisfied with philandering, engaged in a secret second marriage. When the secret was out, his wife (also his cousin) asked for ‘Khula’

In my experience belonging to a particular class such as the Military has nothing to do with the breakup of a marriage. IMHO the reasons for divorce in my country are:

1. Infertility - lack of the birth of a child within 3 years. Chronic diseases and mental problems could also be one of the major reasons for divorce.

2. Financial difficulties due to loss of job or business failure of the male spouse. More often the case with the affluent families where the wife is not used to prolonged financial hardships.

3. Real or imagine infidelity. Mostly in middle-class families; where both husbands and wives are working, the
absence of trust can lead to a real or perceived lack of fidelity.

4. In a patriarchal society, such as in Pakistan, the men dominate the women in more than one manner. This often leads to verbal and even physical domestic abuse.

5. Financial independence of the wives. Most independently financially strong wives are often less willing to comprise, eventually resulting in the marriage break up.

All said and done Divorce rate in Pakistan at roughly 5 per thousand marriages is still quite low. This shows that most of the Pakistani marriages, whether arranged or thru love or even forced as in many rural areas, seem to be working.

Sir If I may ask What is ur age?
Love marriages don't work here

 

[niaz]

Sir If I may ask What is ur age?
Love marriages don't work here

I was born in 1943 and hence now 76. My wife is not related to me, it was a kind of love marriage. I liked the girl and asked my mother to go and persuade her family.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

I have been married for more than 50 years and guess this experience permits me to post my comments as being pertinent to this topic.

My wife is the cousin of one of my classmates from Lahore. We met because my friend used to stay at her house when he visited Karachi. We have had our ups & downs over the long period but the disagreements never reached the stage which would result in a split. I do know quite a few who are divorced, all except one because both the husband & wife had their own careers. My younger brother had married a Nurse in the USA, they divorced after 10 years.

My wife’s cousin (my classmate) married a Doctor and the marriage also ended up in divorce. My uncle's daughter also doctor married another doctor but the marriage broke up because of ‘Irreconcilable’ differences. The lone exception was a friend (son of a wealthy landed family) who, not satisfied with philandering, engaged in a secret second marriage. When the secret was out, his wife (also his cousin) asked for ‘Khula’

In my experience belonging to a particular class such as the Military has nothing to do with the breakup of a marriage. IMHO the reasons for divorce in my country are:

1. Infertility - lack of the birth of a child within 3 years. Chronic diseases and mental problems could also be one of the major reasons for divorce.

2. Financial difficulties due to loss of job or business failure of the male spouse. More often the case with the affluent families where the wife is not used to prolonged financial hardships.

3. Real or imagine infidelity. Mostly in middle-class families; where both husbands and wives are working, the
absence of trust can lead to a real or perceived lack of fidelity.

4. In a patriarchal society, such as in Pakistan, the men dominate the women in more than one manner. This often leads to verbal and even physical domestic abuse.

5. Financial independence of the wives. Most independently financially strong wives are often less willing to comprise, eventually resulting in the marriage break up.

All said and done Divorce rate in Pakistan at roughly 5 per thousand marriages is still quite low. This shows that most of the Pakistani marriages, whether arranged or thru love or even forced as in many rural areas, seem to be working.

Very balanced analysis and deductions. Gives a more rounded perspective. Thank you!

 

[Hassan Guy]

Oh wow

two people got together and now can’t get along anymore

how shocking

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Divorce is not bad thing. Its more important to be happy in relationship then just staying in unhappy relationship forever just to please others

 

[Nilgiri]

When the men of society are busy watching drama serials or obsessing over buying the latest bike or obtaining exotic guns for their collections, when society becomes too comfortable in its slight increase in luxury and standard of living; the people will begin to forget their origins, deeming them "out-dated" and "old-fashioned".

But why are you upset? Did Pakistanis not want this? They wanted to be "middle class". They want to celebrate Valentines Day and Halloween and Christmas. They want to be a parody of the modern Westerner. The girls want to be like Kim Kardashian. Most of the followers of Kardashians are Muslim girls lol.

Islam is "old" and "out-dated". Islam is "boring", it "belongs to the 7th century". Only "bearded cavemen" advocate it. Let's all become affluent and Liberal and demand more women's rights and sexual liberation for women. The less clothes the people of a society wear, the more advanced it is by the logic of many here.

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Timur @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Conservatism vs Liberalism in a nutshell.

Just the culture/society/history/identity (that defines the former) varies....but the overall degenerate attrition process is the same....one that wants to surge toward nilhist hedonism.