High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows

[bigzgvr4]

Every aircraft in the IAF's inventory currently, except MKIs, were used in the Kargil war. The jags escorted by mig 29s blew up the base camps and supply depots of the infiltrators. The mig 27 was also used in strikes, but didn't perform too well. The mirages excelled after they were given an LGB upgrade. And all these strikers were given top cover by the mig 29s, which kept the Pakistani F-16s at bay.

yup i agree the only ones were mig 21 and mig27 their wreckage is in PAF museum But the rest were outclassing every thing and mirages were heavily upgraded For the ground bombing roll

how many LCa Can they Make with the same amount of money that would cost to upgrade these Planes just an idea if they do that then mig 21 and mig 27 can retire and LCa will add Lethality and super capability and complement mirages instead of mig 21 and mig 27

 

[janon]

yup i agree the only ones were mig 21 and mig27 their wreckage is in PAF museum But the rest were outclassing every thing and mirages were heavily upgraded For the ground bombing roll

how many LCa Can they Make with the same amount of money that would cost to upgrade these Planes just an idea if they do that then mig 21 and mig 27 can retire and LCa will add Lethality and super capability and complement mirages instead of mig 21 and mig 27

Depending on the source to believe, taking conservative estimates for the avionics upgrade ONLY, and not the weapons or the cost of new facilities at HAL, we could buy about 1.5 LCA mk1, or 1 LCA Mk2 for the same price. Or about 2 JF-17s, or one Gripen C/D. With the added difference that I am quoting the price of brand new aircrafts, as opposed to 20 year old mirages.

However the LCAs are not here yet, and we cant go for a new type, so that comparison is not very meaningful. But why we can't go for more MKIs for that price, instead of this upgrade, beats me.

 

[bigzgvr4]

Depending on the source to believe, taking conservative estimates for the avionics upgrade ONLY, and not the weapons or the cost of new facilities at HAL, we could buy about 1.5 LCA mk1, or 1 LCA Mk2 for the same price. Or about 2 JF-17s, or one Gripen C/D. With the added difference that I am quoting the price of brand new aircrafts, as opposed to 20 year old mirages.

However the LCAs are not here yet, and we cant go for a new type, so that comparison is not very meaningful. But why we can't go for more MKIs for that price, instead of this upgrade, beats me.

well china Wont Sell YOu JFT so that is out of the Question I dont know Why the LCA is NOt Here Yet statement Because it claims to have more then 10000 Hours of Flight and all the weapons test which leads me to beilve that the LCA is just a Bragging Right Comparison with Chinese JFT and Sure You can Buy Gripen Which is also light years ahead of Mig 21 and mig27 in terms of Capabilities and lethality Now Considering LCA and Gripen you can buy Same numbers of Jets as M2k seems to be better stratigically because when your upgrading these m2k they will be out of commision Leaving IAF nothing But mig21/mig27/mig29/su30 well in case of su-30 you are limited because only 2000 flight hours are reserved before engine PMD(preventive maintianance ) SO then you are Left with Mig21/mig 27/mig 29 and Jaguars as Nuclear Strike Fighters

SO I guess the String Pullers of IAF are Cutting IAF Strings and Making it weak Because if this upgrade goes in Only MIg 29 will be the IAF's Back bone with unrelieabilty of mig21 and mig 27 as you seen in kargil and Su 30 will Only be a Weekend Warrior for 1hour or so

Better option would Be IF LCA is TRUE infact with 10000 Test Flight Hours and it would support local INdustry or Gripen but IAF not opting For LCA in Hugh Numbers shows some thing fishy about the Program

and how many m2k are in service
are their more then 100

 

[janon]

well china Wont Sell YOu JFT so that is out of the Question I dont know Why the LCA is NOt Here Yet statement Because it claims to have more then 10000 Hours of Flight and all the weapons test which leads me to beilve that the LCA is just a Bragging Right Comparison with Chinese JFT and Sure You can Buy Gripen Which is also light years ahead of Mig 21 and mig27 in terms of Capabilities and lethality Now Considering LCA and Gripen you can buy Same numbers of Jets as M2k seems to be better stratigically because when your upgrading these m2k they will be out of commision Leaving IAF nothing But mig21/mig27/mig29/su30 well in case of su-30 you are limited because only 2000 flight hours are reserved before engine PMD(preventive maintianance ) SO then you are Left with Mig21/mig 27/mig 29 and Jaguars as Nuclear Strike Fighters

SO I guess the String Pullers of IAF are Cutting IAF Strings and Making it weak Because if this upgrade goes in Only MIg 29 will be the IAF's Back bone with unrelieabilty of mig21 and mig 27 as you seen in kargil and Su 30 will Only be a Weekend Warrior for 1hour or so

Better option would Be IF LCA is TRUE infact with 10000 Test Flight Hours and it would support local INdustry or Gripen but IAF not opting For LCA in Hugh Numbers shows some thing fishy about the Program

and how many m2k are in service
are their more then 100

49 mirages in service as of now.

The LCA has logged 2000+ flight hours and tested all sorts of weapons, except BVR firing through radar. Unfortunately the IAF won't accept the LCA until it is fully fit for wartime duties. The question of supporting indigenous industry is not on their minds. PAF inducted JF-17 even before it had A2G capabilities. The IAF is adamant in its demand that the LCA should be as capable as the mirage-2000, while being as light and small as a mig-21. Until every little issue is niggled out, they will not give it the FOC.

Inducting gripen or something else at this stage will be several times more expensive than upgrading mirages, because then you will have to take into consideration the cost of training pilots, creating maintenance and overhaul facilities, accumulating spares, and other logistical nightmares. That is simply out of the question. IAF is desperately trying to reduced the types of aircrafts it is flying, not add another. We already have decades of experience in using the mirages, and know it inside out.

In your post above, you forgot one big fish - the Rafales, which will start arriving in 2015 or so. So despite the low number of squadrons, the IAF will still comfortably retain its superiority over the PAF, even if it doesn't accept the LCA soon. And in time, there will be about 200 or so LCAs in service with the IAF (Mk1 + Mk2). That is inescapable, because we simply cannot afford to use huge twin engine jets for every role in war and peace.

Even in the present scenario, the huge fleet of MKIs, mirages and upgraded mig-29s is enough to give us a comfortable edge over PAF. The fleet of MKIs itself is more than the number of 4th gen aircrafts presently in service with PAF. Like IAF, PAF also has a huge number of obsolete aircrafts that will just not be able to do anything in war.

What worries the IAF most is a two front scenario. A simultaneous war with Pakistan and China - if that happens, the IAF will be woefully short of numbers. In such a case, we need at least 42 squadrons to fully defend against China, and to conclusively defeat PAF. We won't attain that number for the next ten years or so. And we won't attain that number without a large number of cheap LCAs to fulfill the low end needs. That is the reason you hear about the IAF's fighter woes these days, because they are thinking in terms of a two front war, and not just Pakistan.

 

[bigzgvr4]

49 mirages in service as of now.

The LCA has logged 2000+ flight hours and tested all sorts of weapons, except BVR firing through radar. Unfortunately the IAF won't accept the LCA until it is fully fit for wartime duties. The question of supporting indigenous industry is not on their minds. PAF inducted JF-17 even before it had A2G capabilities. The IAF is adamant in its demand that the LCA should be as capable as the mirage-2000, while being as light and small as a mig-21. Until every little issue is niggled out, they will not give it the FOC.

Inducting gripen or something else at this stage will be several times more expensive than upgrading mirages, because then you will have to take into consideration the cost of training pilots, creating maintenance and overhaul facilities, accumulating spares, and other logistical nightmares. That is simply out of the question. IAF is desperately trying to reduced the types of aircrafts it is flying, not add another.

In your post above, you forgot one big fish - the Rafales, which will start arriving in 2015 or so. So despite the low number of squadrons, the IAF will still comfortably retain its superiority over the PAF, even if it doesn't accept the LCA soon. And in time, there will be about 200 or so LCAs in service with the IAF (Mk1 + Mk2). That is inescapable, because we simply cannot afford to use huge twine engine jets for every role in war and peace.

Even in the present scenario, the huge fleet of MKIs, mirages and upgraded mig-29s is enough to give us a comfortable edge over PAF. The fleet of MKIs itself is more than the number of 4th gen aircrafts presently in service with PAF. Like IAF, PAF also has a huge number of obsolete aircrafts that will just not be able to do anything in war.

DUde i am not talking about PAF i dont know why would you bring PAF into this and some one else posted a link on indian defence section about Lca with 8000 odd Flight hours and later another indian Posted a link about 10000 flight hours, Heres the thing In india you guys are buying more the 100 Rafael Upgrading Jaguars and Upgrading M2ks and Talking about SUper su-30

Now heres what i think IF LCA is TRUE you Can Have 49 more LCA with m2k without Stoping the Operational Scope of m2k for the sake of upgrades, and Probably have same amount of LCa as Jaguars without stoping the operational Scope of Jaguars now YOu can Get rid of the same amount of Mig21 and mig 27 next when the Rafael Comes in 2015 then you can take the luxury of Upgrading M2k because you will have rafael

Now if you take a look at my above post I am basing the fact on operational Scope Of IAF in IRaq War or AFGhanistan War in the first week their were more then 100000 Flight Sorties and More then 1000s of hours of Flight time for the Jet that was just in first week Now I dont know if Indian String Pullers are playing Games when planing For defence or what
If you Go to War with Some one during the time your upgrading m2k You have just ended IAF backbone Because that is the most Reliable Jet and mig29(not sure because russia Grounded theirs) in your Asset and Su 30 is Very Good but limited to the amount it can do Because you will have to Look at Borders that are not Friendly and you are not with war With

and I am Not making this thread into a Dick Measuring Contest with PAF in terms of we have this we have that

But look War with any country you would need a potent operational Scope
The above war i mentioned the countries had no airforce what so ever and to this Day the ground troops need Air Support

Not disrespect intended

 

[janon]

DUde i am not talking about PAF i dont know why would you bring PAF into this and some one else posted a link on indian defence section about Lca with 8000 odd Flight hours and later another indian Posted a link about 10000 flight hours, Heres the thing In india you guys are buying more the 100 Rafael Upgrading Jaguars and Upgrading M2ks and Talking about SUper su-30

Now heres what i think IF LCA is TRUE you Can Have 49 more LCA with m2k without Stoping the Operational Scope of m2k for the sake of upgrades, and Probably have same amount of LCa as Jaguars without stoping the operational Scope of Jaguars now YOu can Get rid of the same amount of Mig21 and mig 27 next when the Rafael Comes in 2015 then you can take the luxury of Upgrading M2k because you will have rafael

Now if you take a look at my above post I am basing the fact on operational Scope Of IAF in IRaq War or AFGhanistan War in the first week their were more then 100000 Flight Sorties and More then 1000s of hours of Flight time for the Jet that was just in first week Now I dont know if Indian String Pullers are playing Games when planing For defence or what
If you Go to War with Some one during the time your upgrading m2k You have just ended IAF backbone Because that is the most Reliable Jet and mig29(not sure because russia Grounded theirs) in your Asset and Su 30 is Very Good but limited to the amount it can do Because you will have to Look at Borders that are not Friendly and you are not with war With

and I am Not making this thread into a Dick Measuring Contest with PAF in terms of we have this we have that

But look War with any country you would need a potent operational Scope
The above war i mentioned the countries had no airforce what so ever and to this Day the ground troops need Air Support

Not disrespect intended

I didn't intend it as a dick measuring contest either. I only brought in the PAF and PLAAF because I wanted to analyze the adequacy or inadequacy of the IAF's fleet, and one cannot do that without looking at the potential adversaries. I was pointing out the likely scenarios the IAF will face, without which we cannot judge our needs or where we stand.

PAF's and PLAAF's abilities will determine IAF's needs. That is the only reason I brought them into the discussion.

About your point WRT the mirages being sent for upgrades. The IAF knows that fully well, and that is why it was decided that only 2 mirages would be upgraded at a time. Two are already in France for the upgrade, and after they return, we will send two at a time to HAL. That is why this program will take so bloody long to complete - seven years to upgrade the entire fleet. So the upgradation itself won't affect the operational preparedness of the IAF.

The LCA has logged about 2050 hours so far. The figure is updated every week or so on ADA's website, so there is no need to rely on other forumers for that info.

 

[bigzgvr4]

I didn't intend it as a dick measuring contest either. I only brought in the PAF and PLAAF because I wanted to analyze the adequacy or inadequacy of the IAF's fleet, and one cannot do that without looking at the potential adversaries. I was pointing out the likely scenarios the IAF will face, without which we cannot judge our needs or where we stand.

PAF's and PLAAF's abilities will determine IAF's needs. That is the only reason I brought them into the discussion.

About your point WRT the mirages being sent for upgrades. The IAF knows that fully well, and that is why it was decided that only 2 mirages would be upgraded at a time. Two are already in France for the upgrade, and after they return, we will send two at a time to HAL. That is why this program will take so bloody long to complete - seven years to upgrade the entire fleet. So the upgradation itself won't affect the operational preparedness of the IAF.

The LCA has logged about 2050 hours so far. The figure is updated every week or so on ADA's website, so there is no need to rely on other forumers for that info.

Thats not Bad if they are doing 2 at a time, are you guys also Doing Jaguars too
But i still Say dont waste Money On upgrades and Make LCA you and you can make More LCAs per year then all these different planes getting different Upgrades and then after first year Batch of LCA you can have an UPgraded Batch like mk1.5 the next year then mk2 the year after
and 2050 HOurs are impresive Considering the fact that Su 30 is also only 2000 Hours before engine PMD
can YOu Provide the link for the site where they say the hours and what kind of weapons have been Tested through it

and i guess you are going with the m2k upgrade route how would the upgraded M2k Stands when comparing with LCA the Current one not the future one

 

[janon]

can YOu Provide the link for the site where they say the hours and what kind of weapons have been Tested through it

ADA Archives

That's the website that gives the updates on the flight hours logged by each airframe.

Here is their link to the general overview of which hardpoint carries what SORT OF weapon:

Tejas - Specifications - Weapons

That website has all the official, govt released info about the Tejas, which:

1) Won't be much, since Indian governmental agencies are notoriously bad at public relations.
2) Not too comprehensive or detailed, since they need to devote all their meager budget to making the Tejas, than making the webpage.

A wide variety of Indian, Russian and Israeli weapons have been qualified for the Tejas so far. The idea is to have commonality with the rest of the IAF fleet to keep costs low - ie, the same weapons qualified for use on the MKIs and Rafales will be operationalized with the Tejas as well.

 

[bigzgvr4]

ADA Archives

That's the website that gives the updates on the flight hours logged by each airframe.

Here is their link to the general overview of which hardpoint carries what SORT OF weapon:

Tejas - Specifications - Weapons

That website has all the official, govt released info about the Tejas, which:

1) Won't be much, since Indian governmental agencies are notoriously bad at public relations.
2) Not too comprehensive or detailed, since they need to devote all their meager budget to making the Tejas, than making the webpage.

A wide variety of Indian, Russian and Israeli weapons have been qualified for the Tejas so far. The idea is to have commonality with the rest of the IAF fleet to keep costs low - ie, the same weapons qualified for use on the MKIs and Rafales will be operationalized with the Tejas as well.

it says that 2068 test flights Not flight hours so i stand correct that some one else posted the number 10000 hours Even if you Multiply that number with 5 So 2068 number of Test flightS

{ LCA-Tejas has completed 2068 Test Flights Successfully. (04-Mar-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-351,LSP1-74,LSP2-257,PV5-36,LSP3-107,LSP4-67,LSP5-142,LSP7-27,NP1-4)}

So i think It does have 10000 Hours as some one else posted

Can you give more details on its weapons and the M2k Weapon Suits and ECM and avionics comparison

on the page it say It has a service celling of 15 KM and no Details for the weapons

 

[scarcry]

49 mirages in service as of now.

The LCA has logged 2000+ flight hours and tested all sorts of weapons, except BVR firing through radar. Unfortunately the IAF won't accept the LCA until it is fully fit for wartime duties. The question of supporting indigenous industry is not on their minds. PAF inducted JF-17 even before it had A2G capabilities. The IAF is adamant in its demand that the LCA should be as capable as the mirage-2000, while being as light and small as a mig-21. Until every little issue is niggled out, they will not give it the FOC.

Inducting gripen or something else at this stage will be several times more expensive than upgrading mirages, because then you will have to take into consideration the cost of training pilots, creating maintenance and overhaul facilities, accumulating spares, and other logistical nightmares. That is simply out of the question. IAF is desperately trying to reduced the types of aircrafts it is flying, not add another. We already have decades of experience in using the mirages, and know it inside out.

In your post above, you forgot one big fish - the Rafales, which will start arriving in 2015 or so. So despite the low number of squadrons, the IAF will still comfortably retain its superiority over the PAF, even if it doesn't accept the LCA soon. And in time, there will be about 200 or so LCAs in service with the IAF (Mk1 + Mk2). That is inescapable, because we simply cannot afford to use huge twin engine jets for every role in war and peace.

Even in the present scenario, the huge fleet of MKIs, mirages and upgraded mig-29s is enough to give us a comfortable edge over PAF. The fleet of MKIs itself is more than the number of 4th gen aircrafts presently in service with PAF. Like IAF, PAF also has a huge number of obsolete aircrafts that will just not be able to do anything in war.

What worries the IAF most is a two front scenario. A simultaneous war with Pakistan and China - if that happens, the IAF will be woefully short of numbers. In such a case, we need at least 42 squadrons to fully defend against China, and to conclusively defeat PAF. We won't attain that number for the next ten years or so. And we won't attain that number without a large number of cheap LCAs to fulfill the low end needs. That is the reason you hear about the IAF's fighter woes these days, because they are thinking in terms of a two front war, and not just Pakistan.

IAF to procure two second-hand Mirage-2000 aircraft - Economic Times

49 + 2 = 51 mirage

maybe free gift with rafale deal!

 

[janon]

IAF to procure two second-hand Mirage-2000 aircraft - Economic Times

49 + 2 = 51 mirage

maybe free gift with rafale deal!

So it was reported, but it doesn't seem to have come to fruition. There have been no further reports on whether that actually happened or not. Except France, I don't think anybody will sell us just two second hand mirages from their fleet.

On a related note, it is sad that IAF could not manage to purchase (or did not try hard enough) second hand mirages from UAE or Qatar or both. UAE was trying to sell about 50 second hand mirage-2000-5s, which had been used only sparingly. That would have immediately added 2-3 squadrons to the IAF fleet, and helped us immensely to shore up our combat potential.

 

[sancho]

On a related note, it is sad that IAF could not manage to purchase (or did not try hard enough) second hand mirages from UAE or Qatar or both. UAE was trying to sell about 50 second hand mirage-2000-5s, which had been used only sparingly. That would have immediately added 2-3 squadrons to the IAF fleet, and helped us immensely to shore up our combat potential.

We tried to get the 12 x Qatari M2K-5, but they would have been too costly, the UAE didn't wanted to sell their M2Ks, they even upgraded the older once to the same -9 level of the follow on order. For them they are the only way to have deep strike capabilities, since the US don't provide them with such. So they would only sell them, when they get a replacement and that can take some time and with incoming Rafales and LCA MK2s it simply wasn't worth it anymore.

 

[janon]

We tried to get the 12 x Qatari M2K-5, but they would have been too costly, the UAE didn't wanted to sell their M2Ks, they even upgraded the older once to the same -9 level of the follow on order. For them they are the only way to have deep strike capabilities, since the US don't provide them with such. So they would only sell them, when they get a replacement and that can take some time and with incoming Rafales and LCA MK2s it simply wasn't worth it anymore.

If it is worthwhile to upgrade our mirages for such a high price, why isn't it worth it to buy second hand ones for an equal or lower price (assuming they would sell us for that amount)? Their mirages have not been used to the same extent that ours have, and have a lot more airframe life in them. With this upgradation program, what we are doing essentially is buying 25+ year old mirages for 2 billion dollars, right? Assuming that UAE would not have charged us more than what they paid for initially, it would still have been worth it, wouldn't it? It would also have helped us with our squadron numbers, to add 3 squadrons of fully multirole platforms.

Only two very reasonable assumptions need to be true:
1) They would not charge us more than the original price, or the price we are paying for upgrading each mirage.
2) It could have happened before 2017 or so.

In such a case, we would be getting more value for our money than the upgrade of our mirages, which are far more used than theirs.

 

[sancho]

If it is worthwhile to upgrade our mirages for such a high price, why isn't it worth it to buy second hand ones for an equal or lower price (assuming they would sell us for that amount)?

Because you get limited number of fighters (Qatar has just 12), with systems that wasn't chosen under your requirement and if they are newer than the M2Ks we have, we need to keep them modernising beyond 2025 as well and which upgrade options will be available then?
Reports suggested that we offered over $31 millions per fighter, which they rejected, since they payed nearly twice as much with support and all, which is also a point that must be considered, because you buy fighters with a support of spares and weapons for around 30 years. But if you sell of the fighter after 15 years without getting the money back, it's a huge loss and that is the same for any fighter. That's why countries sell their fighters only at the end of their life, or if they have already decided for something better and both were noth the case for Qatar nor the UAE back then.

The same fits to our Russian fighters btw as well, we paid around $46 millions each Mig 29K, the UPG upgrade comes at more then $22 millions each and the next K upgrade will be even closer to $30 million each, with 2 or 3 upgrades along the lifecycle. So should we sell the Mig 29Ks after 10 years as well, because the upgrade might cost around 65% of the original procurment cost?
That's how it works, you don't earn the most money with selling a car, but with maintenance and repairs and but as long as it does what you want to do with it, it's worth it!

 

[Asian.Century]

corruption by government, what else.