High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows

[Abingdonboy]

lol ban for what.... its cost that much.... our politician decided to upgrade so whats company fault in it...
iwi & augusta westland is under cbi investigation... if we ban all who provide parts an machine

The Govt didn't decide to upgrade them, the IAF did- big difference. The GoI simply okay'd the deal.

 

[maniac@666]

for me the cost of mirage upgrades is worth single penny but my only complain is that it should have been done much more earlier not when we were near selecting our mmrca tender winner or we could have done after the result,this would have given us more leverage.as many members say we should have bought new planes or we should have bought more existing plane which is our inventory like su 30mki or increase the number number of rafales instead of m2k upgrades.the cost for 51 mirage 2000 upgrade was 2.4 billion $ and weapons & infrastructure costs were extra.now tell me how many & which aircraft could we have bought for 2.4 billion $ and what about weapons & infrastructure costs for any other new warbirds? or can 51 rafales or su 30mki replace 51 mirages with existing setup and infrastructure for 2.4 billion $?nope

 

[theone-neo]

The Govt didn't decide to upgrade them, the IAF did- big difference. The GoI simply okay'd the deal.

agree bt am talking about why banning gud company when everything decided by iaf an govt

 

[Abingdonboy]

agree bt am talking about why banning gud company when everything decided by iaf an govt

It was one flippant comment, no one (in a position of power) is currently thinking along these lines, in fact quite the opposite:


TRISHUL: Finally Sanity Prevails! MoD Decides Not To Blacklist Any More OEMs


This is just a case of the Desi media getting themselves all worked up for nothing-AGAIN.

 

[KS]

Ok that comment was sarcastic one ridiculing the MoD practise of blacklisting anyone at the drop of a hat.

 

[Hulk]

It was one flippant comment, no one (in a position of power) is currently thinking along these lines, in fact quite the opposite:


TRISHUL: Finally Sanity Prevails! MoD Decides Not To Blacklist Any More OEMs


This is just a case of the Desi media getting themselves all worked up for nothing-AGAIN.

Its a blog, but hope it is true.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Its a blog, but hope it is true.

Yep, me too!

 

[帅的一匹]

Anyway, the deal is very expensive but IAF has no other feasible choice.

 

[Sergi]

@Sergi who will buy Mirage 2000-Hs? The UAEhave been trying to shift their -5s for years now with no buyer in sight. Also you have to calculate the timing, at a time when the IAF is trying to grapple with a scarily plummeting SQD strength, do you really think it is wise for them to just off load 2 SQDs? And you have to remember these 2 SQDs won't be reformed for at least 8-9 years as the replacement Rafales are a LONG way out. What do you do with all those pilots who now have no machine to fly and you (the IAF and Indian taxpayer) have spent millions of USD to train each one?

Addtionally if you think the Rafale is going to arrive in India and immediately be operationally ready with the IAF then you're batting way off. Not only will it take the best part of 2 years to have a decently sized fleet, but it will take even longer for the IAF to be fully comfortable in integrating the Rafale into their combat strategy. Remember when the SU-30s first arrived in India? Why weren't they used in the 1999 Kargil conflict?

It is a fact the first 2-3 Rafales are destined to go to the TACDE SQD who will take 24-36 months to push the machine to its limits and write the IAF's combat manual for the type. What a brochure or OEM says is one thing but the IAF is a thoroughly professional AF who understands the needs to have their own Indian-specific understanding of a machine.


On the other hand the M2Ks have done their time in purgatory (TACDE), have earned the respect of the IAF in real life combat (Kargil) and are a known quantity for the IAF. At a time when the IAF is going to be receiving numerous types of a/c from a whole manner of different nations (FGFA, SUPER MKI, LCA and RAFALE) it is understandable the IAF would like to have a trustworthy and proven machine around for another few years whilst it gets its collective head around the gargantuan challenge before it.


Faced with all these considerations the IAF made the most logical decision it could.



Mate ALL these questions and more where asked for years before the M2K upgrade was actually signed. The Indian media seems to have forgotten how hard it badgered the IAF on this issue.

But for some inexplicable reason the media is 1-2 years down the road raising this exact issue once again, after initial funds have been released to Dassualt, after the contract has been inked, after training has been begun, after upgrades on the first 2 machines have begun in France.

Ask yourself why now? Do you think the fact the Rafale deal is only a few weeks/months away from being signed is inconsequential?


You yourself admit you are ignorant to such matters and yet you expect the media is telling you the truth and things you don't know but should know? Please the journos who are telling us all this are as clueless on these matters as you, if not more so.

Selling them is option. And if we can't sell them we can continue their use till the end of the life of the airframe.

I don't think Rafale will arrive at once. But we can change that by ordering more off shelf.
And what you think how long this upgrade is going to be ??? I assure you by e time the upgrade is done on these m2ks we have good number of Rafales. So it would have been a good decision to continue use of existing m2ks and buy few more off shelf Raffys. It would have been easy fast and more value for money deal

I am not objections the m2ks Histroy. But do you want to say we should keep using m2ks cause we have trust in em and all the needed tactics are ready for that plane ??? Then we do have a a Mig-21 production line. Should we reopen it ???


Why now is a interesting question and people may have some their own motives behind that. But still it won't change the fact that we are spending a lot on upgrade which will not complete in near future.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Selling them is option. And if we can't sell them we can continue their use till the end of the life of the airframe.

I don't think Rafale will arrive at once. But we can change that by ordering more off shelf.
And what you think how long this upgrade is going to be ??? I assure you by e time the upgrade is done on these m2ks we have good number of Rafales. So it would have been a good decision to continue use of existing m2ks and buy few more off shelf Raffys. It would have been easy fast and more value for money deal

I am not objections the m2ks Histroy. But do you want to say we should keep using m2ks cause we have trust in em and all the needed tactics are ready for that plane ??? Then we do have a a Mig-21 production line. Should we reopen it ???


Why now is a interesting question and people may have some their own motives behind that. But still it won't change the fact that we are spending a lot on upgrade which will not complete in near future.

All I can say is things are not all they appear to be on the surface, this deal serves more than one purpose, I don't think I should say any more.

 

[Sergi]

All I can say is things are not all they appear to be on the surface, this deal serves more than one purpose, I don't think I should say any more.

In that case the value of upgrade should have been not decleared like in SS deal. But who knows.
So lets skip it

 

[sancho]

Sir i don't know why i feel that alot of M2K upgrade systems will find its way to LCA Mk2....
and that most probably be one the reasons that Ministry of Defence has agreed to pay such a high amount for this upgrade...

I don't think so, because the M2K will be a 4th gen fighter, with techs like puls doppler radar, upgraded EW capabilities and fully multirole capable, but technically that is the same that LCA MK1 offers as well. The MK2 that might get even AESA radar, IRST (SC?) would be rated as a 4.5 gen fighter and there won't be much that the Mirage could offer to make the MK2 better.
I think that the nuclear strike capability and specialised ugrades in that regard makes it also more costly, but we can't confirm that.

 

[anant_s]

IAF wanted Rafale and not EF........the only way that was possible was to make Rafale L1....that meant extra money had to be paid to them via some other route. This is where M2K upgrades come in.

This is a serious allegation brother!
Now seriously would you believe IAF taking this route to bring down tendered cost of Rafale? Not likely
IAF at the end of MMRCA had a choice of two of the very best machines in air right now and although correct figures are not known 2-2.5 Billion USD (the figure talked in this discussion) isn't the difference between Rafale and EFT. Rafale (on life cycle costs) was far economical and in that case such an argument or position can never arise in front of IAF and team calculating costs.
On Topic:
apart from Mig 21 which are fast being retired, IAF hasn't anyother fighter in its inventory that it has used in War other than Mirage 2000 (Kargil). So while 30 MKI and Mig 29 are class machines in their own right, IAF would want to keep Mirage 2000 in its quiver till Rafale is inducted in its full strength. We must also remember that Mirage upgrade deal has been going around for quite sometime now, and infact when they started, IAF was not having anything equivalent of Mirage in its inventory. So even though a high price, this seems like a thought out decession.

 

[Mritunjaya]

This is a serious allegation brother!
Now seriously would you believe IAF taking this route to bring down tendered cost of Rafale? Not likely
IAF at the end of MMRCA had a choice of two of the very best machines in air right now and although correct figures are not known 2-2.5 Billion USD (the figure talked in this discussion) isn't the difference between Rafale and EFT. Rafale (on life cycle costs) was far economical and in that case such an argument or position can never arise in front of IAF and team calculating costs.
On Topic:
apart from Mig 21 which are fast being retired, IAF hasn't anyother fighter in its inventory that it has used in War other than Mirage 2000 (Kargil). So while 30 MKI and Mig 29 are class machines in their own right, IAF would want to keep Mirage 2000 in its quiver till Rafale is inducted in its full strength. We must also remember that Mirage upgrade deal has been going around for quite sometime now, and infact when they started, IAF was not having anything equivalent of Mirage in its inventory. So even though a high price, this seems like a thought out decession.

This is well within the realms of possibilities and realities of defence purchase politics.

A good chunk of the cost for the MMRCA deal is to set up infrastructure to productionise the chosen Aircraft in India. Mirage 2000 deal is to upgrade the Aircraft in India i.e. upgrade production facilities in HAL including testing and qualification. There will be a lot of similarities in the production of Mirage 2000 and Rafale and if the HAL production standards are already upgraded in the Mirage 2000 deal then the subsequent cost for production of Rafale goes down.

The Mirage 2000 upgrade languished for a long time and suddenly before freezing of MMRCA it was signed with unusual speed. The best part is all this becomes perfectly legal and competitors cannot raise any valid objection.

If I was head of Rafale, this is what I would have done especially when it was know that IAF was impressed with Rafale and had a history of using Mirage 2000. There is no reason to believe Dassault officials are dumb. Its just the most logical thing to do to ensure Rafale emerges as L1.

Besides IAF was weary of Eurofighter which had lots of strings attached due to the unholy union of multiple European nations with a dubious history of acting against Indian interests. It was much easier to deal with a single nation like France. This was also the best way to avoid stepping on toes.

 

[janon]

On Topic:
apart from Mig 21 which are fast being retired, IAF hasn't anyother fighter in its inventory that it has used in War other than Mirage 2000 (Kargil). So while 30 MKI and Mig 29 are class machines in their own right, IAF would want to keep Mirage 2000 in its quiver till Rafale is inducted in its full strength. We must also remember that Mirage upgrade deal has been going around for quite sometime now, and infact when they started, IAF was not having anything equivalent of Mirage in its inventory. So even though a high price, this seems like a thought out decession.

Every aircraft in the IAF's inventory currently, except MKIs, were used in the Kargil war. The jags escorted by mig 29s blew up the base camps and supply depots of the infiltrators. The mig 27 was also used in strikes, but didn't perform too well. The mirages excelled after they were given an LGB upgrade. And all these strikers were given top cover by the mig 29s, which kept the Pakistani F-16s at bay.