High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows

[Basel]

Gripes are more expensive than f16 s I believe.
A nd as per the french m2k latest version will do 70% of what rafale will do.

But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?

Gripes are more expensive than f16 s I believe.
A nd as per the french m2k latest version will do 70% of what rafale will do.

But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?

 

[rockstarIN]

But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?



But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?

Personally I do not like this deal at all. I wanted to keep this fighter as it is (a good striker) and adding it with ela 2032+ derby upgrade with very much less cost. And to integrate astra when it is ready + the nuke role.

 

[he-man]

Why IAF is upgrading them when you have LCA on the horizon and no major threat in near future?

same way paf is trying to get new stuff with no threats.
lets face it,,there is no possibility of a war now..................those days are over

But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?



But you are purchasing Rafael, LCA will be available soon and already have very good numbers of MKIs available then why need so expensive upgrade to bring them to 70% to Rafael?

our squadron strength has to be maintained till we get rafales,lca and pakfa thats why.
there were 52 mirage 2000 i think

 

[Basel]

same way paf is trying to get new stuff with no threats.
lets face it,,there is no possibility of a war now..................those days are over

Man PAF is using 3rd gen fighters in majority which were upgraded as stop gap and most of them have passed their age therefore PAF need new fighter jets, on the other hand IAF have many options available to them, they have upgraded Mig-29, upgraded MKIs, JAGs and LCA, Rafael will soon be available. IAF will not have to fight with PLAAF any time soon only war can be between PAF v IAF which in terms of quality & quantity IAF have got covered, its the PAF who had to catch up in terms of tech and numbers.

 

[he-man]

Man PAF is using 3rd gen fighters in majority which were upgraded as stop gap and most of them have passed their age therefore PAF need new fighter jets, on the other hand IAF have many options available to them, they have upgraded Mig-29, upgraded MKIs, JAGs and LCA, Rafael will soon be available. IAF will not have to fight with PLAAF any time soon only war can be between PAF v IAF which in terms of quality & quantity IAF have got covered, its the PAF who had to catch up in terms of tech and numbers.

Its how it is man,,,u have to be prepared thats all,,,who knows tomorrow what happens.
Don't worry though,,,war between india and pakistan is a near impossibility now

 

[Basel]

Personally I do not like this deal at all. I wanted to keep this fighter as it is (a good striker) and adding it with ela 2032+ derby upgrade with very much less cost. And to integrate astra when it is ready + the nuke role.

Your mentioned upgrade seem logical specially when LCA & Rafaels will be available soon.

Personally I do not like this deal at all. I wanted to keep this fighter as it is (a good striker) and adding it with ela 2032+ derby upgrade with very much less cost. And to integrate astra when it is ready + the nuke role.

Your mentioned upgraded seems more logical because in near future LCA & Rafaels will be available so why spend more money on upgrade.

 

[rockstarIN]

Your mentioned upgrade seem logical specially when LCA & Rafaels will be available soon.



Your mentioned upgraded seems more logical because in near future LCA & Rafaels will be available so why spend more money on upgrade.

The upgrade is not but the high cost is the problem

 

[Basel]

The upgrade is not but the high cost is the problem

Why India went for expensive upgrade from France? Israel, US or other western country could have offered more in same price or in less price.

 

[Gessler]

IAF Mirage 2000-5 Mk-2 with MICA-IR air to air missiles -

 

[sancho]

Why IAF is upgrading them when you have LCA on the horizon and no major threat in near future?

Because the one has nothing to do with the other. You procure a fighter with a planned lifecycle in mind and this upgrade just as PAFs F16s upgrades will not only help to reach that lifes but also makes them more capable according to the current level of techs and capabilities. That's the same all over the world and depending on the level of upgrades or how you do it, it can get more expensive or less.

Why India went for expensive upgrade from France? Israel, US or other western country could have offered more in same price or in less price.

They can't, Israel can offer certain systems or weapons, but not to overhaul the fighters, nor to show how to overhaul it in India, which sadly is what we wanted. If we had let Dassault do it alone, we could have saved a lot of money.

Personally I do not like this deal at all. I wanted to keep this fighter as it is (a good striker) and adding it with ela 2032+ derby upgrade with very much less cost. And to integrate astra when it is ready + the nuke role.

The advantage of M2K in Kargil was the use of LGBs that most of IAFs other fighters couldn't. Today every fighter can do it, which means to remain viable in the strike role, it needs to add credible strike weapons and capabilities. We know that SPICE 2000s will replace older French 1000Kg bombs, but it sadly doesn't seem to get cruise missiles, that IAF is badly lacking so far. Also in LGB strike it was highly range limited in the past, because of it's hardpoint layout, if it remains with LGBs, it will remain limited capable in strike too.
In A2A Derby and Astra could be carried only at the inner wingstations, which means it could carry only 2 BVR missiles and a single centerline fuel tank. MICA however can be carried at the fuselage stations too, which means 5-6 x MICA's for BVR or WVR attacks in every role!

 

[rockstarIN]

Because the one has nothing to do with the other. You procure a fighter with a planned lifecycle in mind and this upgrade just as PAFs F16s upgrades will not only help to reach that lifes but also makes them more capable according to the current level of techs and capabilities. That's the same all over the world and depending on the level of upgrades or how you do it, it can get more expensive or less.



They can't, Israel can offer certain systems or weapons, but not to overhaul the fighters, nor to show how to overhaul it in India, which sadly is what we wanted. If we had let Dassault do it alone, we could have saved a lot of money.



The advantage of M2K in Kargil was the use of LGBs that most of IAFs other fighters couldn't. Today every fighter can do it, which means to remain viable in the strike role, it needs to add credible strike weapons and capabilities. We know that SPICE 2000s will replace older French 1000Kg bombs, but it sadly doesn't seem to get cruise missiles, that IAF is badly lacking so far. Also in LGB strike it was highly range limited in the past, because of it's hardpoint layout, if it remains with LGBs, it will remain limited capable in strike too.
In A2A Derby and Astra could be carried only at the inner wingstations, which means it could carry only 2 BVR missiles and a single centerline fuel tank. MICA however can be carried at the fuselage stations too, which means 5-6 x MICA's for BVR or WVR attacks in every role!

But the cost is too much if you do a cost benefit analysis.

 

[sancho]

But the cost is too much if you do a cost benefit analysis.

Maybe, depends on what capabilities it finally gets and what roles it is meant to do.

 

[Harisudan]

well china Wont Sell YOu JFT so that is out of the Question I dont know Why the LCA is NOt Here Yet statement Because it claims to have more then 10000 Hours of Flight and all the weapons test which leads me to beilve that the LCA is just a Bragging Right Comparison with Chinese JFT and Sure You can Buy Gripen Which is also light years ahead of Mig 21 and mig27 in terms of Capabilities and lethality Now Considering LCA and Gripen you can buy Same numbers of Jets as M2k seems to be better stratigically because when your upgrading these m2k they will be out of commision Leaving IAF nothing But mig21/mig27/mig29/su30 well in case of su-30 you are limited because only 2000 flight hours are reserved before engine PMD(preventive maintianance ) SO then you are Left with Mig21/mig 27/mig 29 and Jaguars as Nuclear Strike Fighters

SO I guess the String Pullers of IAF are Cutting IAF Strings and Making it weak Because if this upgrade goes in Only MIg 29 will be the IAF's Back bone with unrelieabilty of mig21 and mig 27 as you seen in kargil and Su 30 will Only be a Weekend Warrior for 1hour or so

Better option would Be IF LCA is TRUE infact with 10000 Test Flight Hours and it would support local INdustry or Gripen but IAF not opting For LCA in Hugh Numbers shows some thing fishy about the Program

and how many m2k are in service
are their more then 100

Hi,
Your analysis have certain flaws which I would like to note..Su 30 MKI is a weekend fighter??
The PM for MKI is not 2000 hours, it was for the initial off the shelf bought su30 Ks..MKIs PM hours are higher than that..
Even if it is the case, with close to 250 MKIs I simply don't see, how it will become a weekend fighter..??
With the Kind of Armaments and penetration range, even if it performs as a weekend fighter like u said, it is enough to cause Havocs in the enemy's camp..
Coming to your second point, during Kargil, Mig 27s developed a technical snag, due to High altitude bombing and when the mig27 went down it went down due to the compressor malfunction due to lack of air pressure at that much high altitude and the Mig21 was shot down by stingers, because the Mig21 went inside the range of stingers to purposefully divert the attention of MANPADS from the Mig27 which was on a bombing run and hence was shot..Once they identified the Mig27s snag, they grounded it and developed a new strategy..That was the story of kargil..
But today's Bisons, atleast some 60 of them were upgraded to Bison Standards and are still a potent opponent to anything the enemy can field in, atleast they can cover the bombing units effectively with the KOPYO radar and R27 BVR enabled Bison upgrade..The Mig21s you were quoting are Fishbeds not bisons..

And coming to the LCA point u have made, LCA has crossed well over 10000 flight hours but it is a combined flight hours and not that of a single prototype..Weapon trials, high altitude bombing trials were all completed to the satisfaction of Airforce..
Fielding of LCA within an year is a done decision by IAF after looking at the High altitude engine performance, because earlier IAF was worried about the Thrust produced by LCA..But it has now exceeded what IAF expected..Atleast with the current GE414 engine..

So, as you've quoted, IAF is not out of options, with the current sqns of Bisons, Floggers, Fulcrums, MKIs and Jaguars IAF is very much capable of bringing down anything our adversary can put in the air and also capable of bombing..
IAF's current whistle blowing is only aimed at china..Even china is not considered as an imminent threat, but just to make sure that we wont have another 1962 these whistle blowings and upgradations are going on..
IAFs requirement of atleast 38 Sqns is aimed at fighting a two front war not just a one side war..
Hence as we speak, M2k upgradation has already happened and it is not just for the upgradation of weapons but to create assembly lines for producing similar components that can be used in Rafale as well..
IAF is not dumb to invest such a huge amount in just upgradaing this 20 year old fighter..
Thanks

 

[Harisudan]

Isn't that coming to 3-4 Billion USD?? Phew, you could've bought about 50 -16's with that, with supported armament and structure and knowledge with support in India. Or you could've bought many more SU-30's...........that's insane. Dessault milked it.

Man, I just don't know how you people are questioning the credibility of the decision of fighting force of a country which had served the country well whenever it was asked to do so..The fighting force chooses what machine it wants and what are the upgrades it requires..
The recent M2K upgrades are not just for fighters but installing assembly lines and production facilities which can augment the upcoming rafales as well, because more than 40% of the components are same in both the fighters..
Now, for god's sake, let it go as it is..
Every body in the Airforce knows that this money is not just for upgrading gadgets and weapons..But only very few knows, what it is paid for exactly..

 

[Viper0011.]

Every body in the Airforce knows that this money is not just for upgrading gadgets and weapons..But only very few knows, what it is paid for exactly..

BINGO!!! Read your last part of the sentence. THAT is what I am talking about. I'll stay quiet. Everyone knows how much bribe is given by the French