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Harsh Mander commits sedition

Very gallant of you, and all that, old fruit, but meaningless. With the greatest personal respect, I wish to engage less and less with waffle. This counts as waffle. Let it bestride the battlefield that you have created and command it. I have no inclination to engage with it.

Quite honestly, and without the slightest intention to wound, you need to set your foundations in order. This is gimcrack and gilt, not gold.

Of-course, your engagement has been my privilege and I know the dismissal when I see one . ... but just for a moment Joe perhaps you might re-examine your biases, I say this without malice but it is never too late. To paraphrase Nietzsche - when fighting monsters, we often become one ourselves.

Good Day.
 
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I agree with you that the formation of a state requires nationalism...I am a Bengali nationalist in the sense that I understand the requirement for Bengali nationalism as a key factor in the birth of Bangladesh. But I also know how much this form of nationalism can hurt others like Chakmas and Biharis. So while I agree that Nationalism is required to create a state. I argue it is necessary to either hold a state together(considering people have always been nationalists and patriots borders still change and has changed way too many times to render the use of nationalism as some kind of glue useless) or god forbid to use it as some kind of guiding principle. Nationalism was required to create India....but your previous generation already done that...you are not creating a new state so I don't think you can use that argument as an excuse to be a nationalist. Patriotism is not a political ideology but nationalism is and thats why it is dangerous..as a non-nationalist I do not see the difference between Islamism or Aryan nationalism...but I see a lot of members here(I dont know if this is the general Indian view) lump Indian nationalism with hindutva or Hindu nationalism together as one thing...but I think there should be a clarification on this...another good example is Zionism...although it is used a broad term I have seen people mean it from "the right for Jewish self-determination"(which is commendable) to "all of this land belongs to me because of a distant ancestor of mine and my bronze age book says god gifted it to me"(which is not commendable). Don't you think before being a nationalist you should properly define what nationalism is?

I just realized some thing profound....borders change inspite of nationalism.....and borders change specifically because of nationalism.

You are quite right about this. IMO, this is due to the failure of the Hindutva right wing in the freedom struggle. Having failed to contribute, and being condemned to the rule of law under a constitution which was frankly abhorrent to them, considering the odious principles that it represented to them, they had to find a way out.

Their way out was to claim nationalism for themselves, and to use the worst personal abuse against the reigning establishment and political party, the Congress.

The Congress helped this along manfully by going into excess after corrupt excess,and turning people against them through sheer loathing of the morals and lack of integrity of the khaddar clad Congressman, and through contempt for the stark opportunism of their transmutation of Nehru's possibly heart-felt secularism into the gross kind of political manoeuvre that Arun Nehru represented. When Arun Nehru's counsel prevailed over Mohammed Arif Khan, secularism died in the Congress, and those of us who despised their corrupt habits found to our dismay that there were even lower depths to which they could fall.

Returning to the makeover of the bigots, they then staked out the boundaries of nationalism by pushing an extreme jingoist version as the accepted norm. Under this proposition, anything short of the will to destroy uncooperative neighbours was treason. Whether China or Pakistan, or even harmless, inoffensive Bangladesh, the 'other' became an object of hatred.

Take the case of Bangladesh; even with all the stupid posturing of the BNP and Khaleda Zia, and the harbouring of the most poisonous Islamist elements, and their launching into Indian soil jointly by the Bangladesh authorities colluding with ISI and the theocracy, Bangladesh never was more than a nuisance. The Sanghis converted it into a demonic land, people with pole-vaulters, and poured the full contents of their acid hatred onto the servants that they themselves used, who were supposed to be grabbing jobs and straining the infrastructure with their unplanned, unmanageable numbers - all the while conveniently avoiding mention of their own role in supporting this situation, and brushing aside the fact that even without Bangladesh illegal immigrants, the stress on jobs and the straining of the infrastructure had been present.

They also worked out, or allowed to evolve through trial and error, an effective way of subverting the constitution and its provisions. On the one hand, they work, continue to work desperately hard to capture the administrative high grounds, putting 'their' people in place everywhere, from the autonomous Film Institute to the supporting institutions of government, including the abolished Planning Commission and the judiciary at all levels, which they have had to leave unpenetrated as they didn't have enough educated and learned men themselves.
 
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You are quite right about this. IMO, this is due to the failure of the Hindutva right wing in the freedom struggle. Having failed to contribute, and being condemned to the rule of law under a constitution which was frankly abhorrent to them, considering the odious principles that it represented to them, they had to find a way out.

Their way out was to claim nationalism for themselves, and to use the worst personal abuse against the reigning establishment and political party, the Congress.

The Congress helped this along manfully by going into excess after corrupt excess,and turning people against them through sheer loathing of the morals and lack of integrity of the khaddar clad Congressman, and through contempt for the stark opportunism of their transmutation of Nehru's possibly heart-felt secularism into the gross kind of political manoeuvre that Arun Nehru represented. When Arun Nehru's counsel prevailed over Mohammed Arif Khan, secularism died in the Congress, and those of us who despised their corrupt habits found to our dismay that there were even lower depths to which they could fall.

Returning to the makeover of the bigots, they then staked out the boundaries of nationalism by pushing an extreme jingoist version as the accepted norm. Under this proposition, anything short of the will to destroy uncooperative neighbours was treason. Whether China or Pakistan, or even harmless, inoffensive Bangladesh, the 'other' became an object of hatred.

Take the case of Bangladesh; even with all the stupid posturing of the BNP and Khaleda Zia, and the harbouring of the most poisonous Islamist elements, and their launching into Indian soil jointly by the Bangladesh authorities colluding with ISI and the theocracy, Bangladesh never was more than a nuisance. The Sanghis converted it into a demonic land, people with pole-vaulters, and poured the full contents of their acid hatred onto the servants that they themselves used, who were supposed to be grabbing jobs and straining the infrastructure with their unplanned, unmanageable numbers - all the while conveniently avoiding mention of their own role in supporting this situation, and brushing aside the fact that even without Bangladesh illegal immigrants, the stress on jobs and the straining of the infrastructure had been present.

They also worked out, or allowed to evolve through trial and error, an effective way of subverting the constitution and its provisions. On the one hand, they work, continue to work desperately hard to capture the administrative high grounds, putting 'their' people in place everywhere, from the autonomous Film Institute to the supporting institutions of government, including the abolished Planning Commission and the judiciary at all levels, which they have had to leave unpenetrated as they didn't have enough educated and learned men themselves.

Arent we moving far away from the topic?? In this direction the discussion could never be a fruitful one.....
 
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Of-course, your engagement has been my privilege and I know the dismissal when I see one . ... but just for a moment Joe perhaps you might re-examine your biases, I say this without malice but it is never too late. To paraphrase Nietzsche - when fighting monsters, we often become one ourselves.

Good Day.

It's in the foundations. Stepping in and describing a situation as it seems today, without a before and an after, cannot convince, cannot carry weight. No dismissal was intended; I would not dare to be so arrogant. Try to understand that I have reasoned long and hard and created a consistent paradigm - in the precise sense of that abused word - and measure most things going on by the fit or lack of fit to that paradigm.

Even the Sanghis have such a consistent paradigm. It may be founded on hatred - it is - it may be toxic at the core, but it is consistent, internally consistent.

What I turned away from was the lack of a central vision, and the presentation of some fragmentary ideas as an intellectual position. To be honest, it is not a valid position and the evidence supporting its creation is not consistent and relevant.

My bad luck.

Arent we moving far away from the topic?? In this direction the discussion could never be a fruitful one.....

Are we not dealing with the concept of sedition and its political context?

Arent we moving far away from the topic?? In this direction the discussion could never be a fruitful one.....

Possible. Why don't you move it back?
 
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Yes we are.....But that is not the essence of this thread.....(That is what i thought, otherwise it is ok)

Why not

What it requires is for you to re-state the essence of this thread, as you see it, and challenge all of us, severally and collectively, to address that.
 
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without a before and an after

The after is yet to be determined but before is exactly what I meant by bias. There is a context and then there is bias.

Do you think people or institutions to be incapable of change? Look at how tories evolved in UK, look at how republicans in US evolved or rather devolved - Lincoln to Trump, Look at our very own Congress.

I have no particular affection for BJP or by extension RSS but to hold the sins of the father against the son? I don't believe it is justified. Before we are done, you might be very well proven right, wolf might shed the sheep's clothing but for now I would give them the benefit of doubt.

I also have trust in our civil society, in our constitutional checks and balances and in our masses - They bought IG down when she over-reached, Modi is just a dilettante compared to her. So have faith..
 
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Ok friends, here is a suggestion, why shouldn't we take the debate about what is and what is not sedition to a separate thread and leave this one for that good natured discussions that could be viewed in the opening few pages? the current direction of the thread is not very promising and i am not sure if we can get such good starts on regular basis so lets leave this one in peace shall we?You can make a new thread for this one or may be lets just go and fight/arguments on those threads about Kashmir and Baluchistan and other things?

Lets face it, we all will need some time off from those arguments and exchanges so we can all use this one as a retreat?

PLEASE!

@Spectre @Joe Shearer @WAJsal @Nilgiri @hellfire @nair
And EVERYONE else!
 
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@Arsalan


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Taxila :woot:
My place!!

You are most welcome! :)
We Indians call it Taksasila or the city of cut stones (in Sanskrit). That place is like a treasure to anyone who is interested in archeology, me being one.
I hope and I hope, that someday I get to visit that place. :)


Have you seen some of those details about sites to visit in Taxila have been posting? or the pictures!!
No. I haven't seen it, if you meant on PDF.




Well i love my city. It is a shame i had to move to Faisalabad :( Miss that area!
Got curious about Faisalabad after I read your post. It looks like a well planned city. Loved the sky view of it>>>







image.jpeg


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So when you plan to come let me know, isi bahanay i will be able to visit taxila as well :) and dont listen o those male colleagues, you just bring them here and they will change there views as well. I assure you they will or else.......... :P :lol:

I will have to ditch my freinds then. Lol
 
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i see the same attitude every year during the baisakhi mela when thousands of sikhs visit Lahore and throng the shah alam market. They buy stuff like crazy...all discounted heavily.. you have to take my word here coz you have to see it to believe it. i have friends with business in shah alam market and they all say that it has become kind of a norm there that sikh traders will not be fleeced or charged the real market price.
on the other hand i visited Mumbai 5 years ago... loved the city, the bazars, the pani puri near hill road, the books i bought from crosswords but for the people there... well all i can say is that i was refused a drive on auto the moment he knew i was from Pakistan, the person at crosswords stopped helping me the moment i told him i was from Pakistan, the fear that i experienced in dadar when i introduced myself as pakistani and i still remember the way i was treated during immigration at Mumbai airport. Bottom line india as a country was amazing but some of the indians were very hostile and unwelcoming. I believe this is because of the Indian media... during my 10 day stay there and discussion with colleagues it became apparent that they have been fed a wrong image of Pakistan, one that is not true and based upon a narrative of a sick minded person or an organization. The same is true for Pakistani media as well but indians do it at a level that is beyond our capacity and capability now.
my 2 cents
Well people in Mumbai would be very vary of someone from Pakistan. The first thing that will come to their mind is "What if he is the next Ajmal Kasab?"

I am not saying whether it is justified or not but personally even I will be very careful while interacting with Pakistani in a face to face situation
 
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Well people in Mumbai would be very vary of someone from Pakistan. The first thing that will come to their mind is "What if he is the next Ajmal Kasab?"

I am not saying whether it is justified or not but personally even I will be very careful while interacting with Pakistani in a face to face situation
trust me... they dont bite... lolz... imagine pakistani view of indians as trishul wielding hindu mob.. as shown in newspapers.
 
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I don't understand, why do people need to make such a song and a dance about their visits. It is no big deal! And the Pakistanis who visit India are treated the same way, the ones on personal visit anyways.

All this self praise about, oh we are the most hospitable people (goes for both Indians and Pakistan) and :blah:, makes me wonder how many of these people have actually visited other countries. I have been to several countries, pretty much every continent in the world, and people everywhere were warm, hospitable helpful and respectful.
 
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I don't understand, why do people need to make such a song and a dance about their visits. It is no big deal! And the Pakistanis who visit India are treated the same way, the ones on personal visit anyways.

All this self praise about, oh we are the most hospitable people (goes for both Indians and Pakistan) and :blah:, makes me wonder how many of these people have actually visited other countries. I have been to several countries, pretty much every continent in the world, and people everywhere were warm, hospitable helpful and respectful.

Yup very true!
 
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