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Harsh Mander commits sedition

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'I have committed an act of sedition'

That is the easiest way to grab eyeballs and attention. No more, no less. Little substance.

You cant blame the author..... These days even speaking positive about Pakistan can land you in trouble..... Remya is a perfect example........ Take it in that sense...... The word "Sedition" has become a joke these days.....
 
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i see the same attitude every year during the baisakhi mela when thousands of sikhs visit Lahore and throng the shah alam market. They buy stuff like crazy...all discounted heavily.. you have to take my word here coz you have to see it to believe it. i have friends with business in shah alam market and they all say that it has become kind of a norm there that sikh traders will not be fleeced or charged the real market price.
on the other hand i visited Mumbai 5 years ago... loved the city, the bazars, the pani puri near hill road, the books i bought from crosswords but for the people there... well all i can say is that i was refused a drive on auto the moment he knew i was from Pakistan, the person at crosswords stopped helping me the moment i told him i was from Pakistan, the fear that i experienced in dadar when i introduced myself as pakistani and i still remember the way i was treated during immigration at Mumbai airport. Bottom line india as a country was amazing but some of the indians were very hostile and unwelcoming. I believe this is because of the Indian media... during my 10 day stay there and discussion with colleagues it became apparent that they have been fed a wrong image of Pakistan, one that is not true and based upon a narrative of a sick minded person or an organization. The same is true for Pakistani media as well but indians do it at a level that is beyond our capacity and capability now.
my 2 cents

Cant blame the Mumbaikars . . .26/11 is like a wound deep within their hearts and Minds.

if an Indian sikh does the same in Lahore like what Kassab and company did in Mumbai . .things wouldnt be rosy for them in Lahore either.
 
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There is a deeper agenda behind it - that of trivialization of word Sedition.

Till now word sedition invoked anger and consequences, the latest MO is to make a joke out of it so that the weight it carries in colloquial usage is slowly wilted away.

People often forget how influential manipulation of semantics is - "nationalism/nationalist/hindutva etc have already become "dirty words" the same way "socialist" was in USA, "capitalist" was in USSR. These words in themselves are benign but put a narrative of your choise behind them, give them a biased context and you have a weapon more powerful then nukes in your hands. .

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @Chinese-Dragon @Oscar - What do you think about the role of semantics and it's manipulation in shaping the national conversation and attitudes towards particular ideology or institution?
Semantics can change people's views...here in the US if you get a group of say 1000 conservatives and explain to them in detail what Obamacare is without mentioning Obama care it garners significantly more support then mentioning the word Obamacare.

Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
-Orwell
INDIFFERENCE TO REALITY: The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. (Kashmir)
-Orwell
As for the nationalistic loves and hatreds that I have spoken of, they are part of the make-up of most of us, whether we like it or not. Whether it is possible to get rid of them I do not know, but I do believe that it is possible to struggle against them, and that this is essentially a moral effort.-Orwell

Nationalism has been viewed negatively(with good reason) for decades. Nationalism is a political tool based on the sense of superiority(in often case this sense is unfounded) over others. Any such feelings within the same species of primate that we are are obstacles towards our survival and simply because of evolutionary reasons must be destroyed.
So which kind of Nationalism do you prescribe to? Hindu nationalism? Indian nationalism? "Whichever ethnic group you belong to" nationalism?

@Joe Shearer If you haven't read it already here is a link to the Essay on Nationalism by Orwell...its a really good read:
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
 
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Oh dear.

You forget - I am a Bangladeshi. Flesh of their flesh, blood of their blood. I might have my moments of exasperation, but I don't like anyone else (other than other Bengalis, that is) heckling them. Even those idiots Al Zakir and idune; even UKBengali.



With respect, I wish to ignore that you made that remark.
IS EVERYONE AVOIDING THE elephant in the room : The Title of your Thread !!! or they simply missed it !

[QU


You cant blame the author..... These days even speaking positive about Pakistan can land you in trouble..... Remya is a perfect example........ Take it in that sense...... The word "Sedition" has become a joke these days.....
to know about ramya incident : u have to know the inter dynamics of Karnataka Congress politics !
 
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Semantics can change people's views...here in the US if you get a group of say 1000 conservatives and explain to them in detail what Obamacare is without mentioning Obama care it garners significantly more support then mentioning the word Obamacare.

Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
-Orwell
INDIFFERENCE TO REALITY: The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. (Kashmir)
-Orwell
As for the nationalistic loves and hatreds that I have spoken of, they are part of the make-up of most of us, whether we like it or not. Whether it is possible to get rid of them I do not know, but I do believe that it is possible to struggle against them, and that this is essentially a moral effort.-Orwell

Nationalism has been viewed negatively(with good reason) for decades. Nationalism is a political tool based on the sense of superiority(in often case this sense is unfounded) over others. Any such feelings within the same species of primate that we are are obstacles towards our survival and simply because of evolutionary reasons must be destroyed.
So which kind of Nationalism do you prescribe to? Hindu nationalism? Indian nationalism? "Whichever ethnic group you belong to" nationalism?

oh well you quoted Orwell, one my idols so it is gonna be difficult...

There are two aspects two aspects at play here as you have suggested.

The meaning and the feelings. They are not mutually exclusive either but often feed off of each other colloquially.

Let's take the example of Nationalism - You and many others have defined it as per your personal biases and while it may be true in some cases it also is false in many others.

Both Patriotism and Nationalism have to do with affection which one has for his/her country - country which in itself is a arbitrary expression of imaginary lines in most cases.

Now can patriotism exist without Nationalism? NO! For patriotism to exist - country has to be formed and the birth of nation itself is the labor of Nationalism.

If there is no nationalism, then sooner or later borders would be dissolved - We know what happens when borders dissolve don't we? Just look at Syria, Libya and Iraq

The second aspect is internal strife - Coincidentally Libya, Iraq and Syria are also fertile grounds for Civil War. Nationalism is a glue which holds country together.. One has to not only have the shield of patriotism but sword of nationalism too to fight enemies both within and outside..

The reason for this long explanation is to prove how wrong we often are when we feed off each other.. You quoted Orwell who put a biased context to word nationalism and thus started the process by which future generations began perceiving it differently from it's intended meaning and context.
 
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to know about ramya incident : u have to know the inter dynamics of Karnataka Congress politics !

for me it doesnt matter what internal politics Congress has or BJP has....... My point was simple a case (fir if i am not wrong) was filed based a statement........ If that is fine using the sedition word in this article is also fine.........

But personally such strong word and should not be used for such simple issues.......
 
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IS EVERYONE AVOIDING THE elephant in the room : The Title of your Thread !!! or they simply missed it !


to know about ramya incident : u have to know the inter dynamics of Karnataka Congress politics !
everyone is looking for some time off from those fights. Dont worry, we will get there soon. :) AGAIN!
 
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Not Bengaluru alone:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/04/1088879377628.html?oneclick=true
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/08/14/stories/2003081400190400.htm
There is a deeper agenda behind it - that of trivialization of word Sedition.

Till now word sedition invoked anger and consequences, the latest MO is to make a joke out of it so that the weight it carries in colloquial usage is slowly wilted away.

People often forget how influential manipulation of semantics is - "nationalism/nationalist/hindutva etc have already become "dirty words" the same way "socialist" was in USA, "capitalist" was in USSR. These words in themselves are benign but put a narrative of your choise behind them, give them a biased context and you have a weapon more powerful then nukes in your hands. .

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @Chinese-Dragon @Oscar - What do you think about the role of semantics and it's manipulation in shaping the national conversation and attitudes towards particular ideology or institution?

I think more about the moral ambiguity of those who know that something wrong is going on but do not take a stand, either due to morally diluted outlooks or due to residual prejudices which remain stumbling blocks.

Nothing personal, of course.

Just as there was nothing personal in your own post.

oh well you quoted Orwell, one my idols so it is gonna be difficult...

There are two aspects two aspects at play here as you have suggested.

The meaning and the feelings. They are not mutually exclusive either but often feed off of each other colloquially.

Let's take the example of Nationalism - You and many others have defined it as per your personal biases and while it may be true in some cases it also is false in many others.

Both Patriotism and Nationalism have to do with affection which one has for his/her country - country which in itself is a arbitrary expression of imaginary lines in most cases.

Now can patriotism exist without Nationalism? NO! For patriotism to exist - country has to be formed and the birth of nation itself is the labor of Nationalism.

If there is no nationalism, then sooner or later borders would be dissolved - We know what happens when borders dissolve don't we? Just look at Syria, Libya and Iraq

The second aspect is internal strife - Coincidentally Libya, Iraq and Syria are also fertile grounds for Civil War. Nationalism is a glue which holds country together.. One has to not only have the shield of patriotism but sword of nationalism too to fight enemies both within and outside..

The reason for this long explanation is to prove how wrong we often are when we feed off each other.. You quoted Orwell who put a biased context to word nationalism and thus started the process by which future generations began perceiving it differently from it's intended meaning and context.

We are at diametrically opposite poles.

I am patriotic; as long as there is this country, as long as there is this flag, as long as there is this anthem, I will support it to the best of my mind and body.

As far as nationalism goes, Tagore said it all for me more than a century ago.
 
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oh well you quoted Orwell, one my idols so it is gonna be difficult...

There are two aspects two aspects at play here as you have suggested.

The meaning and the feelings. They are not mutually exclusive either but often feed off of each other colloquially.

Let's take the example of Nationalism - You and many others have defined it as per your personal biases and while it may be true in some cases it also is false in many others.

Both Patriotism and Nationalism have to do with affection which one has for his/her country - country which in itself is a arbitrary expression of imaginary lines in most cases.

Now can patriotism exist without Nationalism? NO! For patriotism to exist - country has to be formed and the birth of nation itself is the labor of Nationalism.

If there is no nationalism, then sooner or later borders would be dissolved - We know what happens when borders dissolve don't we? Just look at Syria, Libya and Iraq

The second aspect is internal strife - Coincidentally Libya, Iraq and Syria are also fertile grounds for Civil War. Nationalism is a glue which holds country together.. One has to not only have the shield of patriotism but sword of nationalism too to fight enemies both within and outside..

The reason for this long explanation is to prove how wrong we often are when we feed off each other.. You quoted Orwell who put a biased context to word nationalism and thus started the process by which future generations began perceiving it differently from it's intended meaning and context.
I agree with you that the formation of a state requires nationalism...I am a Bengali nationalist in the sense that I understand the requirement for Bengali nationalism as a key factor in the birth of Bangladesh. But I also know how much this form of nationalism can hurt others like Chakmas and Biharis. So while I agree that Nationalism is required to create a state. I argue it is necessary to either hold a state together(considering people have always been nationalists and patriots borders still change and has changed way too many times to render the use of nationalism as some kind of glue useless) or god forbid to use it as some kind of guiding principle. Nationalism was required to create India....but your previous generation already done that...you are not creating a new state so I don't think you can use that argument as an excuse to be a nationalist. Patriotism is not a political ideology but nationalism is and thats why it is dangerous..as a non-nationalist I do not see the difference between Islamism or Aryan nationalism...but I see a lot of members here(I dont know if this is the general Indian view) lump Indian nationalism with hindutva or Hindu nationalism together as one thing...but I think there should be a clarification on this...another good example is Zionism...although it is used a broad term I have seen people mean it from "the right for Jewish self-determination"(which is commendable) to "all of this land belongs to me because of a distant ancestor of mine and my bronze age book says god gifted it to me"(which is not commendable). Don't you think before being a nationalist you should properly define what nationalism is?

I just realized some thing profound....borders change inspite of nationalism.....and borders change specifically because of nationalism.
 
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Cant blame the Mumbaikars . . .26/11 is like a wound deep within their hearts and Minds.

if an Indian sikh does the same in Lahore like what Kassab and company did in Mumbai . .things wouldnt be rosy for them in Lahore either.

Yet we don't treat visiting Indians as shits even though your state was responsible for the butchering of childrens in APS and Bacha Khan university attacks.
 
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I think more about the moral ambiguity of those who know that something wrong is going on but do not take a stand, either due to morally diluted outlooks or due to residual prejudices which remain stumbling blocks.

Nothing personal, of course.

Just as there was nothing personal in your own post.

I think more about the moral ambiguity of those who know that something wrong is going on but do not take a stand, either due to morally diluted outlooks or due to residual prejudices which remain stumbling blocks.

Nothing personal, of course.

Just as there was nothing personal in your own post.

I am against two things staunchly

- Extremes
- Exploitation of fear

It is my considered opinion that certain sections of our intelligentsia went too far with tirade of doom and gloom and exploited the fear a numerically inferior groupings would always have against the majority.

That they did it without due cause by the ruling dispensation further aggravated me. The behavior at the top has been beyond reproach and while the loonies and fringe would always act like themselves - to suggest that they are the new normal was nothing but gross and criminal exaggeration.

This broadened the rifts in our society, this put the very idea of India under threat, the self proclaimed guardians of secularism where themselves guilty of putting the religion first and foremost. How else would you define constant prescription of motives to every political action against by GoI? When Congress did it - it was a non issue but now it became a cause celebre?

The direct result of such naked hypocrisy was Kashmir! The exaggerations, the demagoguery and manipulations created an atmosphere of fear in Kashmir. Instead reassuring them - there insecurities were magnified and as result we saw what we saw..

I am an ideologically fluid person, I have no allegiance to anyone but my country - so @Joe Shearer whenever I see excesses committed, I speak out - whether it is by the right or the left, by the minority or the majority.

The same Tagore also said this "To light the fire and then complain that it burns is absolutely childish" in the appropriate context.
 
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I am against two things staunchly

- Extremes
- Exploitation of fear

It is my considered opinion that certain sections of our intelligentsia went too far with tirade of doom and gloom and exploited the fear a numerically inferior groupings would always have against the majority.

That they did it without due cause by the ruling dispensation further aggravated me. The behavior at the top has been beyond reproach and while the loonies and fringe would always act like themselves - to suggest that they are the new normal was nothing but gross and criminal exaggeration.

This broadened the rifts in our society, this put the very idea of India under threat, the self proclaimed guardians of secularism where themselves guilty of putting the religion first and foremost. How else would you define constant prescription of motives to every political action against by GoI? When Congress did it - it was a non issue but now it became a cause celebre?

The direct result of such naked hypocrisy was Kashmir! The exaggerations, the demagoguery and manipulations created an atmosphere of fear in Kashmir. Instead reassuring them - there insecurities were magnified and as result we saw what we saw..

I am an ideologically fluid person, I have no allegiance to anyone but my country - so @Joe Shearer whenever I see excesses committed, I speak out - whether it is by the right or the left, by the minority or the majority.

The same Tagore also said this "To light the fire and then complain that it burns is absolutely childish" in the appropriate context.

Very gallant of you, and all that, old fruit, but meaningless. With the greatest personal respect, I wish to engage less and less with waffle. This counts as waffle. Let it bestride the battlefield that you have created and command it. I have no inclination to engage with it.

Quite honestly, and without the slightest intention to wound, you need to set your foundations in order. This is gimcrack and gilt, not gold.
 
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Patriotism is not a political ideology but nationalism is

This is a contradictory statement and the entire foundation and thus the failing of your argument.

To suggest nationalism is a political ideology suggests your nation stands for particular kind of politics. I am not saying it is not true - It indeed is. Each nation stands for certain ideals and there in lies the politics. Take an example of secularism - when you stand for secularism, it becomes your duty to defend it - what happens to those who don't want secularism within your nation? Their rights are curtailed and aspirations marginalized via what? Majority Politics.

So where is the difference b/w a patriot and nationalist here? A Patriot would fight for the same ideology of secularism when it is at threat thereby being part of the politics as would nationalist.

Now you may point out that patriot would not advance or enforce these ideals outside of nation while a nationalist would - this is the wrong and outdated concept of nationalism solely based on the deeds of USA and European countries. What they did was not Nationalism but Imperialism - cultural, economic and geographic.
 
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'I have committed an act of sedition'

That is the easiest way to grab eyeballs and attention. No more, no less. Little substance.

Sir,

I must point out, with hesitation and some foreboding, considering that you have an entire pack at your disposal, that the same might be said of utterances from you and your cohorts.
 
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@Joe Shearer lovely story and enjoyed reading it.

I have open invite to Pakistan from a close friend that I plan on fulfilling sometime in next few years hopefully.

I hope to post the trip experience and pictures here in this forum when I do of course....maybe I will even meet up with some of our friendly Pakistani forum members.
 
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