Hameed Gul on Wagah blast.

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I speak, of the leaders and prominent commanders, most of whom are found with background in the Afghan Jihad, you cant pretent no longer that these people aren't the derivatives of the war fought on Afghan soil. Many of these fighters have such families. Those foreign militants you are fighting, were imported in the eighties. I do not agree that it was ever in the country's interest, its never good to create monsters who inevitably and ultimately go out of your control, as it later happened. Its never good to fight other's war and when fighting, involving the whole country and making your soil, the battleground. We should have learned from the Peshawar accords after seeing the Mujahids go haywire. The Reds had left, by then.

Peace talks are for humans, these are animals. They understand only the language, in which the military is communicating to them right now. No terrorists Mullahs like Abdul Azeez landing in North Waziristan for dialogues, no longer. However, the current one, like all of them, before him, understood once the peace talks failed. That is enough.

--the problem was AFTER the expulsion of the soviets.....not during

--how you feel about the campaign to liberate Afghanistan is an opinional thing. Having an expansionist regime next door (one which was hostile to Pakistan and a primary arms supplier to our enemy in the east) and dealing with a humanitarian crisis necessitated us to intervene.

--glad you disagree with peace-talks with TTP.....so does anyone with a spine. Too bad our government lacks a spine and embarrassed itself. The Army is the one dealing with the problems now, since the civilian bureaucrats are incompetent and only care about their savings accounts

 

[Secur]

--the problem was AFTER the expulsion of the soviets.....not during

--how you feel about the campaign to liberate Afghanistan is an opinional thing. Having an expansionist regime next door (one which was hostile to Pakistan and a primary arms supplier to our enemy in the east) and dealing with a humanitarian crisis necessitated us to intervene.

--glad you disagree with peace-talks with TTP.....so does anyone with a spine. Too bad our government lacks a spine and embarrassed itself. The Army is the one dealing with the problems now, since the civilian bureaucrats are incompetent and only care about their savings accounts

I am aware.

I believe that there were other far better options of tackling this threat. I believe that Pakistanis, being aware of the USSR decline, should have considered limited engagement, not an absolute and complete one, like they did. The Soviet Union had changed its stance dramatically, since the Fall of Dhaka, that should have been considered.

Whats there to talk? We, surely, cant hand over Islamabad or agree to enforce their brand of the religion. There has been trememdous decrease in terrorism, in the country, a big slap on the face of all people specially religious parties, who were in opposition of the operation.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Not all blame of course, he's not the main architect, but he played his part well. He has contributed to the current state of the country. Give me one shred of evidence that TTP was created by U.S.A. There were enough Jihadis and their offsprings leftover from the Afghan Jihad and enough infrastructure, ideology and extremism for it to be formed, indigenously, by Pakistanis on Pakistani soil. There's more than enough evidence that TTP is a domestric phenomenon. The problem with you people that you dont wish to answer points raised in previous posts, you have to repeat it all over again.

@Abu Zolfiqar What is the prominent belief in the army, about TTP? Both foreign and domestic? Or one of them?

He retired as a former DG ISI; his assignment was cut short due to political reasons and he was replaced. He was offered assignment as DG Pak Ordnance Factories which he rejected so he hung the uniform

The CORE of the anti-soviet efforts was done under the watchful eye of folks like Gen. Akhtar Abdul Rehman and Logistics geniuses like Brigadier Mohammad Youssaf (ran the Afghan affairs desk @ ISI during the zenith of the campaign)- people whose roles are probably more recognized by the mujahideen folks rather than their own countrymen.

 

[Sugarcane]

just a question ............that dilusional old mate in the video says India was never united except under mughals or British .

wasnt Emperor Ashoka had larger kingdom????

and when in the history mughals had control of whole India ???? South India was out of their reach ....so was Assam ....in fact Assam defeat mughals when mughals attacked them

How long Ashoka's kingdom survived? Indian sub-continent was/is home of different nations that's reality and it remained so in most of history, time span of all empires (at-peak when ruled major part of Indian sub-continent) collectively just blip in thousands of years history.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I am aware.

I believe that there were other far better options of tackling this threat. I believe that Pakistanis, being aware of the USSR decline, should have considered limited engagement, not an absolute and complete one, like they did.

at the end of the day it was a guerilla campaign......death by 1,000 cuts.

the muiahideen suffered many losses too, but the soviets didnt have the time or the will to fight

i'd say given how long it took, it was FAIRLY limited.....the US congressional decision to allow man portable Stinger missiles was the game changer though

The Soviet Union had changed its stance dramatically, since the Fall of Dhaka, that should have been considered.

was it????

b/c my understanding is that they armed our enemy - essentially making them our enemy too in the process.....one of many reasons why we needed revenge

Whats there to talk? We, surely, cant hand over Islamabad or agree to enforce their brand of the religion. There has been trememdous decrease in terrorism, in the country, a big slap on the face of all people specially religious parties, who were in opposition of the operation.

this is true, but the enemy still lingers.....there are sleeper cells

dangerous people - but their ideology can be tackled

 

[Secur]

He retired as a former DG ISI; his assignment was cut short due to political reasons and he was replaced. He was offered assignment as DG Pak Ordnance Factories which he rejected so he hung the uniform

The CORE of the anti-soviet efforts was done under the watchful eye of folks like Gen. Akhtar Abdul Rehman and Logistics geniuses like Brigadier Mohammad Youssaf (ran the Afghan affairs desk @ ISI during the zenith of the campaign)- people whose roles are probably more recognized by the mujahideen folks rather than their own countrymen.

Even if taking the drug, was absolutely necessary, we should have opted for a gradual taper technique for withdrawal, instead of the sudden and accidental cold turkey we found ourselves in, after the attacks on twin towers.

Should have discarded them earlier, if and I do not agree with this, creating them was unavoidable. Instead, how they had to be discarded later.

 

[Secur]

b/c my understanding is that they armed our enemy - essentially making them our enemy too in the process.....one of many reasons why we needed revenge

They did, I am neither denying nor portraying them as friends. But the main reason, that we have made unnecessary enemies is by allying ourselves with a single superpower, even though there happened to be two, at that time. Check my post #36 in the same thread. Hameed Gul on Wagah blast,modi and hindus | Page 3

the muiahideen suffered many losses too, but the soviets didnt have the time or the will to fight

They also didn't leave because they had lost militarily. Soviet Union was on the verge of decline, would never have crossed to the other side of the Khyber Pass.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Even if taking the drug, was absolutely necessary, we should have opted for a gradual taper technique for withdrawal, instead of the sudden and accidental cold turkey we found ourselves in, after the attacks on twin towers.

Should have discarded them earlier, if and I do not agree with this, creating them was unavoidable.

not all was rosy - regardless of what western media would have you think

we had serious differences with them in 1998....Pakistani and Saudi political pressure failed to convince them to expel the non-Afghan jihadis who were there and refusing to leave. Hell - even Mullah Omar was threatened by their tactics and their financial influence but he was too stubborn to expel the "guests" -- which, frankly, he should have done....

 

[Secret Service]

The guy is a total nutcase and terrorist supporter.

i am sure, this man has spend more years in army than your age and he knows more reality than anyone of us..i think it is not fare with the person.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

They did, I am neither denying nor portraying them as friends. But the main reason, that we have made unnecessary enemies is by allying ourselves with a single superpower, even though there happened to be two, at that time. Check my post #36 in the same thread. Hameed Gul on Wagah blast,modi and hindus | Page 3

times change though....today Moscow still provides arms to india but isnt necessarily an enemy. The ice was broken when CJCSC Gen. Wynne & COAS Gen Kayani visited Moscow i think it was 2 years back or something like that

I am also neither denying nor portraying that we have not made policy mistakes either, dont get me wrong here sir.

 

[Secur]

not all was rosy - regardless of what western media would have you think

we had serious differences with them in 1998....Pakistani and Saudi political pressure failed to convince them to expel the non-Afghan jihadis who were there and refusing to leave. Hell - even Mullah Omar was threatened by their tactics and their financial influence but he was too stubborn to expel the "guests" -- which, frankly, he should have done....

Never is, it wont be now. This isn't the Western media having me think, this is the situation on the ground today, causing me to think this way. One instance where we should have known and acted, I think, was after the Soviets left and Mujahids fought amongst each other, leading to futile Peshawar accords, thats where we should have known to part our ways with this kind. That man, left Musharraf with no choice, but to comply with the American demand.

times change though....today Moscow still provides arms to india but isnt necessarily an enemy. The ice was broken when CJCSC Gen. Wynne & COAS Gen Kayani visited Moscow i think it was 2 years back or something like that

I am also neither denying nor portraying that we have not made policy mistakes either, dont get me wrong here sir.

See. We were getting economic help and messages of non intervention at that time, the support to Baluchistan insurgency was toned down on Moscow's orders, by the Communist regime. There was reproachment possible with Reds back then too, in my opinion it should have been tried, all we got by creating Mujahideens is long term mess, which will take another decade or two to clean, it wasn't worth it.

 

[Bas_kya_bhai]

Why? Because we dont like him? Or because we dont agree with Govt of Pakistan false official version, that USSR was coming to get us? Or because we dont consider Afghan Jihad as beneficial to the country? He has harmed the country, more than any Indian could ever imagine and dare to do. The benefits of his services, to the country, are being reaped by this nation, today, in the form of extremism and endless terrorism in the society. He brought these people, who are waging Jihad in the country now, have a look around you, all these prominent commanders-leaders-footsoldiers have a background from the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. He's the man who helped built the whole Jihadi infrastructure in this country from money to weapons, which the military has to take care of, now. He brought those Uzbeks, Tajiks,Chechens, Arabs and Afghans which you have to fight today- you probably never ever did wonder where they came from and when. He's the one who lied to the nation, fed them propaganda about Reds wanting to invade Pakistan next, in the 80's, even though there was overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He's the lead man for the indoctrination of Pakistanis and the Wahhabi mentality responsible for suicide bombers and terrorists today. And he's the one responsible for guns and drug in the society. You want me to praise him just because Indians wont? Never!

respect!! brother.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Never is, it wont be now. This isn't the Western media having me think, this is the situation on the ground today, causing me to think this way. One instance where we should have known and acted, I think, was after the Soviets left and Mujahids fought amongst each other, leading to futile Peshawar accords, thats where we should have known to part our ways with this kind. That man, left Musharraf with no choice, but to comply with the American demand.

that's my whole point too.....AFTER they left is where the problems and divisions and confused policy came. However we were left to deal with the brunt of it - those involved in anti-soviet efforts didnt re-focus their attention towards RECONSTRUCTION. Afghanistan was in tatters, helping the people would have gone a long way....so that millions wouldnt be forced to live like refugees in Pakistan and Iran

See. We were getting economic help and messages of non interventions at that time. There was a reproachment possible with Reds back then too, in my opinion it should have been tried, all we got by creating Mujahideens is long term mess, which will take another decade or two to clean, it wasn't worth it.

prior to full fledged support (material, materiel, lines of communication/logistical support, military training etc) there was a humanitarian crisis......dissidents were met by death from 5,000 feet above. Entire villages were shelled and gun-shipped. We were damned if we did nothing (forgetting the fact that soviets in our backyard would mean Pakistan is encircled)

of course it would be criminal to neglect the serious repercussions it all had - directly or indirectly.....AK-47s in Karachi, rising heroin addictions (despite so-called Islamist agenda), refugee crisis exploding, etc.

the TTP and groups like this that target Pakistan today have no reason to do so....Pakistan hasnt invaded any country, we aren't imposing our will through the use of force. They're pawns on a giant chess-board and there are great games being played.

 

[Secur]

that's my whole point too.....AFTER they left is where the problems and divisions and confused policy came. However we were left to deal with the brunt of it - those involved in anti-soviet efforts didnt re-focus their attention towards RECONSTRUCTION. Afghanistan was in tatters, helping the people would have gone a long way....so that millions wouldnt be forced to live like refugees in Pakistan and Iran

prior to full fledged support (material, materiel, lines of communication/logistical support, military training etc) there was a humanitarian crisis......dissidents were met by death from 5,000 feet above. Entire villages were shelled and gun-shipped. We were damned if we did nothing (forgetting the fact that soviets in our backyard would mean Pakistan is encircled)

Might I point another lesson from the history again? This wasn't the first or the last time, the Americans had abandoned either us or the country they involved themselves in. Islamabad had its share of the U.S ways of working, after the supply of weapons was stopped after '65 war, we just dont seem to learn at all, my friend. We should have known and considered all these variables, before taking part in Afghan war. The Americans left, the Arabs left but we couldn't, because we were neighbors, we should have known and factored in, this part too. If we had made the mistake, then we shouldn't have continued it by continuing the same policy with Mujahideens till the attacks on twin towers, we should have gradually parted our ways with them long ago, before suddenly we had to, to disastrous results, after 9/11.

I could care less what was happening in Afghanistan to Afghans, those people have always been fighting amongst themselves in their two hundred years of history. It doesn't concern me. One reason that for Pakistan's problem has always been running th Foreign policy on emotions and considering a nonexistent Ummah.

 

[Shot-Caller]

Why? Because we dont like him? Or because we dont agree with Govt of Pakistan false official version, that USSR was coming to get us? Or because we dont consider Afghan Jihad as beneficial to the country? He has harmed the country, more than any Indian could ever imagine and dare to do. The benefits of his services, to the country, are being reaped by this nation, today, in the form of extremism and endless terrorism in the society. He brought these people, who are waging Jihad in the country now, have a look around you, all these prominent commanders-leaders-footsoldiers have a background from the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. He's the man who helped built the whole Jihadi infrastructure in this country from money to weapons, which the military has to take care of, now. He brought those Uzbeks, Tajiks,Chechens, Arabs and Afghans which you have to fight today- you probably never ever did wonder where they came from and when. He's the one who lied to the nation, fed them propaganda about Reds wanting to invade Pakistan next, in the 80's, even though there was overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He's the lead man for the indoctrination of Pakistanis and the Wahhabi mentality responsible for suicide bombers and terrorists today. And he's the one responsible for guns and drug in the society. You want me to praise him just because Indians wont? Never!

Why are you putting all the blame for this on hamid gul? he retired way back. Why do you forget all these suicide bombs and terrorism started after 9/11 and musharraf was the main person who let americans use our country. All these movements are a result of that. What hamid gul did in Afghanistan proved worthy and attackers of Afghanistan paid the price. If you think it was him who 'lied' to the nation that Pakistan will be the next target you need to watch what zia ul haq said in his speeches in that time. Zia was the army chief and president then. So before you put all the blame on one person try seeing all aspects. I like the patriotism he talks with. And mostly talks about unity of muslims which now,seems like the only way to get rid of western invaders and bring long term peace.