HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[Red Dwarf]

XiNiX, all the info you provided are recent developments. My question was why didn't we created our LCA around a Russian engine in the first place. Why we decided to use an American engine instead of a Russian one during its design phase. Was there any problems existed at that time or the design team agreed on GE engine is more suitable than Russian one.

 

[haawk]

^^^^^the reason we didnt base our LCA around a russian engine was because we wanted our own engine(kaveri)......so since the kaveri is underpowered we had to go for the ge404

 

[Red Dwarf]

^^^^^the reason we didnt base our LCA around a russian engine was because we wanted our own engine(kaveri)......so since the kaveri is underpowered we had to go for the ge404

If that was the case, then i was wrong. I thought that Kaveri project was started after LCA and not alongside of it.

 

[Hulk]

If that was the case, then i was wrong. I thought that Kaveri project was started after LCA and not alongside of it.

It is because US engines are better, simple as that. Buying a complete plane from US is a risk, but just engine is fine.

 

[gogbot]

It is because US engines are better, simple as that. Buying a complete plane from US is a risk, but just engine is fine.

This was not the case.

initially, it had been decided to equip the prototype aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine. Simulataneously, in 1986, a parallel programme to develop an indigenous powerplant was also launched. Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri", was expected to replace the F404 on all production aircraft. However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by technical difficulties.

Continued development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated General Electric F404, F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production LSP aircraft and two naval prototypes. The ADA awarded General Electric a US$105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 -IN20 engines, delivery of which began in 2006.

In Feb 2007, HAL ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Before the subsequent order, F404-GE-IN20 was trial-installed in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as part of final evaluations toward flight-testing, scheduled for mid-2007. The F404-GE-IN20 engine generated more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) uninstalled thrust and completed 330 hours of Accelerated Mission testing, equivalent of 1,000 hours of flight operation. The -IN20 succeeds -F2J3 development engines used for nearly 600 flights, cumulatively covering eight engines.

In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected.The ADA plans to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000–23,000 lbf) range. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414.

 

[AVIAN]

One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.

 

[gogbot]

One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.

That's why its all the more Important to get The KAveri

 

[Chanakyaa]

One should not forget Russian denial of providing suitable engine when we were doing test flights of Marut Jet fighters during 70s, since they were looking to bring Mig-21s below our throat and Marut jet became a itch among various Russian delegation visiting India in those days. This is one of the reason why, India never tried to show confidence even in its best friend, since Engine is much more important entity and if you are plugging foriegn engine then certainly it prone to sanctions.

Then as we all are aware we had just ONE source of such Tech - USSR.

Now things have changed there are a variety of options with us, they know if they wont deliver somebody else will - thanks to our foreign relations.

 

[UchihaCG]

Then as we all are aware we had just ONE source of such Tech - USSR.

Now things have changed there are a variety of options with us, they know if they wont deliver somebody else will - thanks to our foreign relations.

I'll tell you though we have more option now..... we can't trust US/Europe. Russians are still our best option no matter what.

F-18 did you see the sanctions US has placed on it's radar? I also remember reading about some agreement that US wants India to sign....... allowing it's systems to communicate/check American equipment sold to India.

 

[antartica]

The LCA project has been amusingly delayed . Going through this thread and thru the internet , I feel there have been some unnecessary delays from the Govt of India and a lot due to the restrictions in place after the nuke tests in late 90's .

This is very strange that once the project was presented in 1983 why the it didn't got clearance till early 90;s .

But , one thing which I noticed that this project started with a plan to build a 2nd generation aircraft , but with time and thanks to the stubbornness of the Indian Airforce by not accepting anything below the latest standards , this project is now at a stage that LCA which would be rolled out in near future would be a 4+ generation aircraft with a far more advanced and latest features . HAL should thank IAF that due to which they would be rolling out a beast , as they compared to what they were planning to .

Best of luck to HAL for LCA and not to mention PAF for their JF series aircraft's .

 

[gogbot]

But , one thing which I noticed that this project started with a plan to build a 2nd generation aircraft , but with time and thanks to the stubbornness of the Indian Airforce by not accepting anything below the latest standards , this project is now at a stage that LCA which would be rolled out in near future would be a 4+ generation aircraft with a far more advanced and latest features . HAL should thank IAF that due to which they would be rolling out a beast , as they compared to what they were planning to .
.

No, no This was never the case.

The plan from the very start was to create a 4th gen fighter.

The LCA programme was launched in 1983 for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (NATO reporting name 'Fishbed') fighters. The MiG-21 has been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s, but the initial examples were nearly 20 years old by 1983. The "Long Term Re-Equipment Plan 1981" noted that the MiG-21s would be approaching the end of their service lives by the mid-1990s, and that by 1995 the IAF would lack 40% of the aircraft needed to fill its projected force structure requirements.

The IAF expressed doubt that India possessed sufficient technological infrastructure to support such an ambitious project.
A governmental review committee was formed in May 1989 which reported out a general view that Indian infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced sufficiently in most areas to undertake the project.The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small delta-winged machine with "relaxed static stability" (RSS) to enhance maneuverability performance.Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorized until April 1993, with significant work on FSED Phase 1 commencing in June. The first technology demonstrator, TD-1, was rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998,

The LCA programme's other main objective was to serve as the vehicle for an across-the-board advancement of India's domestic aerospace industry.[12] Soon after gaining independence in 1947, Indian leaders established an ambitious national objective of attaining self-reliance in aviation and other strategic industries. The value of the aerospace "self-reliance" initiative is not simply the production of an aircraft, but also the building of a local industry capable of creating state-of-the-art products with commercial spin-offs for a global market. The LCA program was intended in part to further expand and advance India's indigenous aerospace capabilities across the broadest range of modern aviation technologies.

To better accomplish these goals, the government chose to take a different management approach, and in 1984 established the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme. Although the Tejas is most often described as a product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), responsibility for the development of the Tejas actually belongs to ADA, a national consortium of over 100 defence laboratories, industrial organisations, and academic institutions with HAL being the principal contractor.[14] The ADA formally falls under the auspices of the Indian Defence Ministry's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include indigenous development of the three most sophisticated — and hence most challenging — systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine.[15] Although India has had a policy of strictly limiting foreign participation in the LCA programme, these are the only major LCA systems on which the ADA has had to invite significant foreign technological assistance and consultancy. Moreover, the engine and radar are also the only major systems for which the ADA has seriously considered substituting foreign equipment, albeit as an interim measure on the initial LCA aircraft where needed to allow more time for the full development of the indigenous versions — as has been the case with the LCA's Kaveri powerplant.

The ambitiousness of the LCA programme in terms of pursuing self-reliance in aviation technologies is illustrated by the fact that out of a total of 35 major avionics components and line-replaceable units (LRUs), only three involve foreign systems. These are the multi-function displays (MFDs) by Sextant (France) and Elbit (Israel), the helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS) cueing system by Elbit, and the laser pod supplied by Rafael (Israel). However, even among these three, when the LCA reaches the production stage, the MFDs are expected to be supplied by Indian companies. A few other important items of equipment (such as the Martin-Baker ejection seat) have been imported. As a consequence of the embargo imposed on India after its nuclear weapons tests in May 1998, many items originally planned to be imported — like the landing gear — were instead developed indigenously .

Of the five critical technologies the ADA identified at the beginning of the LCA programme as needing to be mastered for India to be able to design and build a "completely indigenous" fighter, two have been entirely successful: the development and manufacture of advanced carbon-fibre composite (CFC) structures and skins (especially on the order of the size of a wing) and a modern "glass cockpit." In fact, ADA has had a profitable commercial spin-off in its Autolay integrated automated software system for the design and development of 3-D laminated composite elements (which has been licensed to both Airbus and Infosys). These successes have gone mostly unnoticed in the shadow of the problems encountered with the other three key technology initiatives. Nonetheless, as a result of the accomplishments of India's domestic industries, presently about 70% of the components in LCA are manufactured in India and the dependence on imported components used would be progressively reduced in the coming years

In fact the IAF was the one that held the LCA back. DRDO/HAL wanted to do more. IAF was not willing to fund it them selves.and The first set of requirements were rather modest. Once the project got way and they saw potential they then increased the IAF requirements . and took a more active intrest in everything.

 

[Hulk]

The Hindu : National : DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project
BANGALORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been given the go-ahead by the government to take up an offer of French firm Snecma to ‘partner’ with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for jointly developing the Kaveri aero engine.

Senior GTRE officials told The Hindu that talks with Snecma “could start early next year.” The Kaveri’s eventual user, the Indian Air Force now appears to have softened its opposition to the tie-up, they said.

The Rs. 2,839-crore Kaveri engine programme was launched in 1989, specifically to power the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, now under development at the DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). In 2005, the GTRE indicated that it would not be able to develop the Kaveri engine on its own.

Interestingly, the government’s nod, which is expected to cost the exchequer at least Rs 1,000 crore, comes nine months after a team, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran and comprising officials from the ADA, the IAF and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, submitted a report that stated that an engine developed jointly by Snecma and the GTRE would not meet the IAF’s performance requirements. The IAF also wanted the Kaveri project delinked from Tejas programme.

According to informed sources, members of the Matheswaran team were critical of the French passing off their existing and fully developed ‘Eco’ engine core. This, the team felt, would not give India the engine core design knowledge or even control over it. It also pointed out that the design technology being handed out would take years to come.

Based on the report, the French offer was put on the backburner with even officials from Snecma stating that the “chapter was closed.” But the IAF for reasons not yet clear, appear to have reversed its stand.

Snecma, which indicated that an engine run of at least 250 is required to make their offer economically viable, agrees that an existing core would be at the heart of the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri engine.

It, however, denies it would take years for handing over the design technology. It will take at least five years before the first production engine comes out.

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of “the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF’s requirements.”

The GTRE hopes to use the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri to replace the GE F404 (IN20) engine that will fly two squadrons of the Tejas.

If all goes well the Snecma-GTRE tie-up could be formalised during the French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s planned visit to India in March –April 2010.

 

[Hulk]

Whatever it takes we should get this done.

 

[sudhir007]

Not Abandoned N-Tejas yet IDRW.ORG

Recently Indian Navy issued Request for information (RFI) for the purchase of undisclosed numbers of Multi role Fighter which it wants to purchase for its Second Indigenous Aircraft carrier which will be built in India and will join Indian Navy by 2018. In December Mig-29K started arriving in India in semi -knocked down condition which was purchased for INS Vikramaditya, reports suggests that Indian Navy may order more Mig-29K for First Indigenous Aircraft carrier also .But recent development of purchase of second line of New Naval Fighter jet has been blamed in largely blamed by many sections of media on delays faced by the countries Indigenous Naval Tejas Project. Highly placed source based in Goa’s Naval Air Wing has confirmed (lca-tejas.org) that Indian Navy has not abandoned Naval Variant of Tejas yet and are actually very much interested in the project its self, they has been confirmation that Navy is interested in getting N-Tejas with High powered engines which Air force wants for Tejas MK-II rather then the Currently powered engines of GE. Indian Navy wants to maintain around 150 Naval Fighter aircrafts by 2020 for Carrier and Land Based operations, Navy is no hurry in Procurement of Naval Tejas since India’s first Indigenous Aircraft carrier will be operational only by 2014 at best and Navy want best of the Tejas Project .Navy also will be building a Carrier type deck close to Naval Base INS Hansa where Carrier takeoff and landing will be simulated for Training of Future pilots of Indian Navy , First Prototype of NP-1 a Naval Tejas will make to air by end of 2010 and will also be based in INS Hansa for carrying out all necessary test to get clearance for Carrier operations , NP-1 will have design similarities with recently test flown PV-5 which is a Air force Trainer variant .

 

[sancho]

There are few advantage of buying 99 GE414 engine....

1) We are already using GE 404 Engine... and GE 414 is vary similar in size and shape of GE 404 engine so we required vary few structural changes, so less time and cost.

2) We can use same facility for maintance and we don't required any othe technical asistance, so again it reduce time and cost.

3) It gives higer trust than EF engine, so batter supercruse and handling.

4) And it's Almost HALF the cost of EF engine...

Your main argument is that GE 414 is the best from the cost point of view and I agree with you on that, but it is for sure not the best engine!

1) GE 414 has a similar size like the GE404 and won't need much changes inside the LCA, but the higher thrust engine will need bigger air intakes (see difference of F18 Hornet and Super Hornet)! That means that the airframe of the LCA must be redesigned, which might causes much more problems and delays.
EJ 200 on the other side is smaller in size and is EADS officials said it don't need airframe changes!

2) Anonther major point is the weight! LCA is already suffering from overweight and GE 414 is said to be heavier than the EJ 200 (some sources say around 100Kg), which means the empty weight will be a problem again.

3) Thrust! GE 414 has an afterburner thrust of 98 kN, EJ 200 a thrust of 90kN. Boeing is offically offering the GE414 EPEwith up to 20% more thrust, but that engine is not ready! It will only be developed if an export customer want it, what of course means shared funding. Given the fact that MoD rejected Snecmas offer of co-developing an 90kN engine for LCA, because they wanted a ready and proven engine now, it is very unlikely that they will go for a development of the US engine.
EJ 200 might have slightly less thrust, but is also officially offered with an improvement in this field (95+kN are often speculated in the media) and this improvement will be available in the new EF tranche 3 too, so no new development is needed!

4) TVC! EJ 200 is officially offered with TVC for LCA, a feature that could be a big advantage for LCA in terms of maneuverability. It is under development for nearly a decade now with EJ 200 and will also be available in the new EF Tranche 3.
GE had developed similar techs too, but nothing entered, or will enter operational status, so they can't offer any comparable advantage!

5) ToT! EJ200 is officially offered with the transfer of Key technologies, this will be a great benefit for our indigenous industrie, to improve our capabilities for any future projects.
ToT of US techs is always limited by US law, doubtful that they will be ready to provide us with similar techs like the Europeans would.

To sum it up, of course EJ 200 means more costs, but in return we will get the clearly best engine for LCA with similar thrust, less weight and TVC. It will mean less changes and redesigns at LCA, so no further delays and we will benefit for future engine projects via ToT.
Imo that all is worth the more money!