HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[con]

Read my Above post, if you still did not get, I will increase the font size:

IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic.

And who said this? Did the report mentioned any person in position saying this? or is it IAF saying this on record? What makes you think that IAF is gonna accept a aircraft which does not meet the ASR,when it is spending 15 billion dollars on MRCA & PAk-FA? Wonder why then the IAF chief is on record stating the future IAF force structure would be made of SU30,MRCA & LCA.

LCA was meant to replace Mig-21. what do you think would have been the ASR? Stealth fighters? It is obvious that LCA would come with GE engine for the first batch,when ASR demands an Indian engine. Isn't that all a "lower ASR"? And what is the big deal in this. If IAF can consider F-18,F-16 & Gripen with American engines,i dont see why they should not take LCA with GE engines. The report is about the test engines having lower thrust than the production engines. The chap is talking about it nothing else. This aspect is known from the time development started,nothing OMG about it.

As far as ASR is concerned, IAF wanted strengthening of the wings to handle heavier missiles. ADA already re-designed the wings.And this requirement came in 2001-2002. This just proves that if IAF wants, it can get it's requirement fulfilled.

 

[Titanium]

And who said this? Did the report mentioned any person in position saying this? or is it IAF saying this on record?

Oh please do no agitate over this ... there is more information off the record than on. The reporter might be referring to the same....

What makes you think that IAF is gonna accept a aircraft which does not meet the ASR,when it is spending 15 billion dollars on MRCA & PAk-FA? Wonder why then the IAF chief is on record stating the future IAF force structure would be made of SU30,MRCA & LCA

.

The above report.

LCA was meant to replace Mig-21. what do you think would have been the ASR? Stealth fighters? It is obvious that LCA would come with GE engine for the first batch,when ASR demands an Indian engine. Isn't that all a "lower ASR"? And what is the big deal in this. If IAF can consider F-18,F-16 & Gripen with American engines,i dont see why they should not take LCA with GE engines. The report is about the test engines having lower thrust than the production engines. The chap is talking about it nothing else. This aspect is known from the time development started,nothing OMG about it.

What the ASR were during design and what today is we can speculate only, since ono one has access. Those who have the access, report that it is not meeting the unrealistc ASR.

IAF would have to be asked to lower certain aspects of their air staff requirements for the LCA, which at the moment were unrealistic

 

[Flintlock]

Titanium, I know you are having a great time shoving that report in the faces of the Indian members here.

I think I have explained my position clearly in my earlier post. Simply increasing the font
size isn't going to somehow drive your point home.

Unless you have some new information or details to add regarding exactly which requirements were lowered and when, this discussion is becoming quite pointless.

 

[Titanium]

Titanium, I know you are having a great time shoving that report in the faces of the Indian members here.

I think I have explained my position clearly in my earlier post. Simply increasing the font
size isn't going to somehow drive your point home.

Unless you have some new information or details to add regarding exactly which requirements were lowered and when, this discussion is becoming quite pointless.

Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of

• Nothing on the record.
  
• that reporter is not credible,
  
• It is planted by.......who ISI?
  
• Outright denial...
  
• Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)

...and just not to disappoint you the new information is

Drop tanks which will enhance the Tejas’ endurance capabilities have been fitted but having sprung a leak they are currently non-operational.

So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?

 

[con]

Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of

• Nothing on the record.
  
• that reporter is not credible,
  
• It is planted by.......who ISI?
  
• Outright denial...
  
• Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)

There is no denial about anything. The report which you have been floating around relates to the issue of engine and the comments about "reduced" ASR related to that. Read the report once again and you will understand the context.
If you think there is denial why dont you mention what is "reduced" other than issue of the engine? All you have been doing is posting the same sentence over and over again,with nothing substantial to add.

LCA program is one of the most open aircraft development program around.Please show me more reports which indicates what is the state of weaponisation on JF-17? The missile firing test of LCA was carried out at 12 in the afternoon and the video of the test is available by 5 in the evening.
Please do point such a openness about the programs like JF-17. And dont give me the lame excuses about Chinese being secretive about such things etc.

All your arguments revolves around one liners which you dont try to understand in the first place.No one says that all reports which are critical of Indian development programs are nonsense,but you can very well make out the quality of reporting with the amount of junk they place in it.The report which you are pointing out talks about "some extraordinary meeting" b/w IAF & HAL over the future of LCA,when matter of fact these bodies meet every fornight to oversee the progress.

There were some reports about "need to re-design air intakes blah blah" when it was later found to complete hogwash.The reporter added his own spice over the issue of lower thrust in development engine by saying the air intake needs to be re-developed.
I would suggest that you carry out more research before posting one liner from reports in bold letters.It would help you put your arguments better.Posting in bold letter does not.

 

[con]

So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?

And where does it says that tanks are leaking during flights? If some drop tanks are leaking what is the big deal about it?

How is that related to the performance of the aircraft? Do airforces around the world never have a leaking drop tanks?

 

[Flintlock]

Contrary to your expectations, it is not to drumbeat. It is coz of absolute denial mode of some people to the report. Either they could not see or don't want to see ...which is becoming legendary in the lines of

• Nothing on the record.
  
• that reporter is not credible,

• 
  
  Well all those are valid arguments. The report doesn't give its source, and neither does it divulge any details.
  
  The report states that the current version of the LCA doesn't fulfill the specs, and clearly implies that the next version will have the desired performance.
  
  Unless we know what requirements were lowered, there is no point debating further.
  
  

  [*]Have you heard of the gent "I know more about defence than you can imagine" (am missing him)

.....and who might that be?

So what you have to say new tanks leaking.....during flights?

Er...so? Its not like the wings fell off or something!!

Just because the ADA is revealing the minute details of problems encountered doesn't indicate that the project is failing.

If you analyze the development schedule of the Raptor, Osprey etc, you will see crashes, accidents, mixups, changes in configuration and requirements etc also.

Considering this jet is developed by a govt. agency with a small fraction of the funds alloted compared to western aircraft companies,
considering the accident-free record of the design
considering that this is the first fighter jet designed in India, I am quite proud of the results.

 

[Titanium]

And where does it says that tanks are leaking during flights? If some drop tanks are leaking what is the big deal about it?

How is that related to the performance of the aircraft? Do airforces around the world never have a leaking drop tanks?

I have not aware of any Airforce operating with leaking drop tanks. Your experiance of the same will be helpful in bringing the matter to light.

Having said that, if it was a simple leak it would not have been highlighted, to warrent mention in report.

 

[Titanium]

Er...so? Its not like the wings fell off or something!!

Am afraid the wing and airintake are the only part tweaked from the orignial Dassult supplied Mirage III design.

There are reports that LCA has no sufficiant thrust on account of small airintake. (Compramised for stealthy?)

and capacityof Wing to handle high load will be available only when loaded with full armaments(though I have my doubts). Till then no fatwa from me

 

[con]

I have not aware of any Airforce operating with leaking drop tanks

No airforce is gonna OPERATE with a leaking tank.And they are not going to complain to you about leaking tanks either,for you to be "aware" of it.

Having said that, if it was a simple leak it would not have been highlighted, to warrent mention in report

And what more do you think could have happened with a tank? Exploded?
Dont you think there can be a simple solution of using another tank?

 

[Titanium]

And what more do you think could have happened with a tank? Exploded?
Dont you think there can be a simple solution of using another tank?

If your idea of tank as is tank in truck or a container...you are way off the mark. We are talking of a tank build for supersonic speed, with sufficiant strenght to take some hit. Not to mention the compartment and it pumps for supply and all.


For your information HAL say it is made of "TITANIUM", The strongest and lightest material known.

To develop leak in such a system is cause for concern.

 

[con]

If your idea of tank as is tank in truck or a container...you are way off the mark. We are talking of a tank build for supersonic speed, with sufficiant strenght to take some hit. Not to mention the compartment and it pumps for supply and all.


For your information HAL say it is made of "TITANIUM", The strongest and lightest material known.

To develop leak in such a system is cause for concern.

I very well know a drop tank has complex arrangements and designed for supersonic speed. The concern would come up if all the tanks have developed leak,which is not the case.
The leak is basically due to production fault with the tank.Thats about it. They will just replace it with another one.

 

[Titanium]

I very well know a drop tank has complex arrangements and designed for supersonic speed. The concern would come up if all the tanks have developed leak,which is not the case.
The leak is basically due to production fault with the tank.Thats about it. They will just replace it with another one.

That is one way of looking at it, which no doubt is simple according to you. The other side is, it may be integration issue? or Also note the sentance

having sprung a leak they are currently non-operational.

more than one or maybe all i don't know how many manufactured. Definately quality control issue, which is also dogging Arjun production, as the :

During oral evidence, on the quality of Arjun Tank, the non-official expert informed the Committee :-
“……… I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it ?”

 

[Titanium]

Shiv Arror's take on Weaponization of LCA

It just occured to me that the Ministry of Defence may be going slightly overboard with publicity for its defence development programmes. It took me only a second to copy and paste the day before's press release on the LCA Tejas successfully firing its first air-to-air missile (see previous post below). Read the press release carefully. It's positively shouting from the roof about something that should be routine for fighter development -- and not some impossibly glorious moment. If anything, it's a quietly supreme moment for its makers and creators. But to project this on the outside just makes us look stupid.

It's definitely significant, but making such a big deal about the "beginning of weaponisation" is a little rich -- it should have happened at least three years ago for starters. Second, the thing had darn well fire missiles by now if it's going to be scrubbed up for squadron service in a handful of years (with LSP units to be handed over by late 2008 or early 2009)! On the journey to self-reliance, let's get a little real about image while we're about it.

I bumped into HAL chairman Ashok Baweja at the CII Indian Aerospace Industry and was chatting with him round about the time that the Tejas in question was probably firing off its glorious R-60 off Goa. It was a very "LCA" day, because after lunch, I was accosted by Vice Admiral (retd) Raman Puri and given a twenty-minute tongue-lashing on the Tejas and how the wrong people were being blamed for its messy, prolonged incubation journey.

But there are hard questions about the Tejas that nobody asks -- the sort that make Admiral Puri scoff. Those who do ask such questions are national traitors without a shred of respect. Those who don't are happy allowing both HAL and DRDO to blame the air force, assuming no measure of the blame. This is something that must end. Sure, sanctions, mid-stream changes, and all the rest of it -- but are we positively sure that all the money we've spent on the Tejas will deliver a first-rate fighter at the end of it. More importantly, when will the IAF be in a position to judge? HAL has had an embarassing run with the radar now to be virtually outsourced to Israel for the first twenty fighters. The less said about that blackhole of cash called Kaveri, the better. The patriotism of patience wears thin.

So talk of the Tejas being considered for the MRCA contract (this was a real debate at the MoD level) are not only half-baked, but positively idiotic.

After the recent Arjun MBT special report I did recently, I received an SMS from a senior DRDO scientist which said, "Celebrate successes. Our country will become strong." I couldn't agree more with this statement. But let's get real about the Tejas. Let's cut out the hogwash, and get real. We're spending way too much cold cash on imported fighters for us to no longer have our own production line of our own fighter.

 

[zeus]

ya ya MR Shiv Arror lca fired R-60 instead of R-73 ,this dude blows up his credibility again by quoting a wrong missile