HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[shrivatsa]

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn

 

[nitesh]

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn

Well, the actual answer will be complex. But to put in simple words, The IAF staff requirement asks for ~100KN engine whereas PAF staff requirements are getting satisfied with the 81.4KN engine.

 

[QuickSilver]

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn

its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable' - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)

cheers

 

[Neo]

its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable' - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)

cheers

Twelve LCA prototypes have flown more than 1000 hours. You have 12 different centres of gravities with each of those prototypes. Which one is the true one?

 

[ejaz007]

Production version of LCA 'Tejas' takes to skies
Bangalore | Monday, Jun 16 2008 IST


The much-awaited maiden flight of LSP-2 (Limited Series Production) of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' was successfully carried out at the HAL airport here.

The state-of-the-art aircraft, which was flown by National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) test pilot Wg Cdr N Tiwari, took off majestically and flew for 30 minutes at 1.1 Mach crossing 1,200 kmph. As had been the practice, the maiden flight of this aircraft was chased by another Tejas aircraft PV3, piloted by Wg Cdr RR Tyagi.

Speaking to UNI here, Mr L S Subramanium, Chief of LCA Division of HAL, the public sector aircraft manufacturer, said it was a key phase of the jet fighter. So far, the prototypes had completed 900 flights.

A HAL release here said that eventhough the aircraft was ready for its maiden flight last week itself, the flight could not take off because of the pre-monsoon weather prevailing in Bangalore.

The flight was conducted by NFTC of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) from its telemetry station, with Wg Cdr M Prabhu, flight test engineer, as the test director. Today's maiden flight of LSP-2 was significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and also had a new ejection seat version, the Martin Baker Mk 16LG, the release said.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Twelve LCA prototypes have flown more than 1000 hours. You have 12 different centres of gravities with each of those prototypes. Which one is the true one?

Neo is'nt it the job of quad FBW programme to adjust according to varying centre of gravity?

 

[nitesh]

Second Tejas aircraft breaks sound barrier on maiden flight- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times


Second Tejas aircraft breaks sound barrier on maiden flight
16 Jun, 2008, 2314 hrs IST, IANS

BANGALORE: The second indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas flew at supersonic speed on its maiden test flight over Bangalore skies on Monday evening.

"This is the second time a Tejas aircraft has flown at a speed of 1.1 Mach (1,320 km per hour) up to an altitude of 9.5 km in a maiden flight lasting 43 minutes," the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said in a statement on late Monday.

The limited series production aircraft (LSP2) was flown by ADA's national flight test centre (NFTC) pilot Wing Commander N Tiwari. As is the practice, the multi-role fighter aircraft was chased by another Tejas prototype version three (PV-3) piloted by Wing Commander R R Tyagi.

The flight test was monitored from NFTC's telemetry station at the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) airport in the eastern suburb of the city.

"The maiden flight of LSP2 is significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is also the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and has a new ejection seat version - the Martin Baker Mk 16LG," the aerospace agency said.

The first eight Tejas aircraft is to be delivered to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy between 2010 and 2012 and will be fitted with the IN20 engines from the US-based General Electric.

 

[Flintlock]

Nitesh before you post an article please check if a similar one has been posted earlier.

 

[x_man]

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn......

Quicksilver : its not only the weight of the craft but also its weapon loading that has to be taken into account. moreover, LCA design is called aerodynamically 'unstable' - this is so that its easier to handle in fight during complex manouvers. hence it requires a higher power engine to keep it aways stable (you also require fly by wire control)

Well your concern is genuine, but in overall aircraft comparison, the weight of the engine doesn’t matter that much...What matters is the thrust to weight ration...meaning that how much thrust the engine produces compared with the weight of aircraft with full compliment of internal/external loads....

As far as the T/W ratios are concerned, please refer to below data...


Tejas
Powerplant: 1x General Electric F04-GE-F2j3 augmented turbofan
Max Thrust: 18,000 lb.
Max Takeoff Weight: 27,558 lb. / 12,500 Kg
Combat Thrust/Weight 0.96


JF-17
Powerplant : 1x Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Max Thrust: 18,300 lb.
Max Takeoff Weight: 27,558 lb. / 12,500 Kg
Combat Thrust/Weight 0.98

Source for above data: AirToAirCombat.Com:

So, its evident that both engines almost mirror each others performance...As Quicksilver has stated in his post that engine power has something to do with the stability of the aircraft , I am afraid its not right....Just for your info , every aircraft experiences four forces....that are Lift , Drag , Weight and Thrust....Lift is an upward force produced mainly by wings , Thrust is a forward force generated by engines , weights acts thru the CG ( centre of gravity and refers to the mass of aircraft) and Drag or resistance is the force that acts opposite to the flight path.......

So you see that stability has nothing to do with the engine thrust rather is more of an aerodynamics factor and is more associated with the controlling of aircraft...Every fighter is designed to be unstable ( within certain limits) .....Too much stability means that its difficult to manoeuvre and too less stability will make it difficult to fly ....So within certain limits a fighter is made to operate that is also called the flight envelope.....Take an example of F-16, it is so unstable that it couldn’t be control thru the normal conventional flight controls. General Dynamics (back then) had to use the electric flight controls so the term fly-by-wire was coined....if F-16 looses is complete electric power, despite having the 29000lb of raw thrust, the aircraft is virtually uncontrollable and the only thing a pilot can do is to EJECT!!!

 

[SU 30 MKI]

Can anybody explain to me why lca needs 100kn engines.
jf -17 weighs more then lca but engine is 81.4kn

Well LCA Weight increased by 2000 Kg then expected, so with 80 KN thrust it can carry less weapon load

1) GE Modified their engine and provided GE F404-20IN engine for LCA which is 85 KN Thrust. which include in first 20 Planes

2) Now EU Offered EJ200 engine with its core Technology Transfer to India which means India can make its own engine using its own Kits and dont have to depend on any part to EU after that.

EJ200 Produce 90KN Thrust

But due to only having 5 stages of compression , it can go upto 100 KN by adding stages.

3) At same time GE pitching GE 414 Engine which have 97.5 KN thrust.


These engine will be fitted in next 20 Batch if all things goes well.


The reason IAF Want More thrust because IAF want LCA Air multi Role Air Superiority plane which can super cruse

While PAF JF 17 is Multi role fighter

 

[blain2]

The reason IAF Want More thrust because IAF want LCA Air multi Role Air Superiority plane which can super cruse

While PAF JF 17 is Multi role fighter

So do you not think that a Multi Role Fighter is also tasked with Air Superiority roles?

Super cruise is not a function of propulsion only. For LCA to do so, some major redesign of the air frame would be needed. As much as some Indians may detest this statement of mine, LCA and JF-17 are pretty much envisioned to be in the same league. A decent MR platform that can replace a lot of the older equipment.

In the end, you can only do so much on the LCA before you take the unit cost so high that it ceases to be an affordable aircraft for you to make it the backbone of your Airforce.

 

[nitesh]

domain-b.com : NAL, Pratt & Whitney in talks to co-develop aircraft engine for indigenous RTA-70 programme

NAL, Pratt & Whitney in talks to co-develop aircraft engine for indigenous RTA-70 programme news
16 June 2008
Bangalore: India's leading aerospace design establishment, the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), is in talks with leading engine makers, Pratt and Whitney of Canada, for the joint development of an India-specific engine for its proposed 90-seater regional transport aircraft, or RTA 70. The NAL-designed RTA-70 is meant to ply short-haul routes and compete with planes of French-Italian aircraft maker Avions de Transport Régional (ATR), a leading exporter of turbo-prop aircraft to the Indian sub-continent.

NAL, a constituent lab of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), wants a fuel-efficient turboprop engine from Pratt and Whitney to power the RTA-70.

''The technical discussions are on. They already have (similar type of) engines flying in other planes,'' said Kota Harinarayana, ex-chief designer of India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, and currently the Raja Ramanna fellow at NAL. Harinarayana is spearheading the RTA-70 project.

Pratt and Whitney engines also power the turboprop family of 50-74 seater planes of ATR, the equal joint venture between Alenia Aeronautica and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co.

India's aerospace industry has had limited success in developing engines. Its only success, to date, has been the PTAE-7 small engine for Lakshya, the pilotless target aircraft, built by aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The indigenously developed Kaveri engine for the LCA Tejas fighter, has already been under development for at least two decades. Off and on, there have been reports about the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment, the agency developing the engine, looking for foreign partners to build the power plant.

According to Harinarayana, NAL wants to sign a partner for the engine programme from the start in order to ensure long-term commitment and costs. He also said that NAL will build a digital concept of the RTA 70 in around two years and a flying prototype in four years.

NAL's 14-seat Saras plane, currently under development, is powered by Pratt and Whitney engines. Saras, named after the Indian crane, is a milestone in that it will be the first indigenously designed commercial civilian aircraft.

NAL is hoping for formal DGCA clearance for the Saras by 2009.

 

[SU 30 MKI]

So do you not think that a Multi Role Fighter is also tasked with Air Superiority roles?

Super cruise is not a function of propulsion only. For LCA to do so, some major redesign of the air frame would be needed. As much as some Indians may detest this statement of mine, LCA and JF-17 are pretty much envisioned to be in the same league. A decent MR platform that can replace a lot of the older equipment.

In the end, you can only do so much on the LCA before you take the unit cost so high that it ceases to be an affordable aircraft for you to make it the backbone of your Airforce.

Well .. this is was talking about Engine only with greater payload capacity....

Well LCA is going to be fitted with AESA Radar, while JF 17 dont have any road map on AESA ... Their it makes difference.

Every plane divided based on its functions .... if u see SU 30 is Air Superiority fighter, Multirole Fighter, Strike fighter, Heavy class fighter

while MIG 29 is Multirole fighter plane like this.

 

[x_man]

Every plane divided based on its functions .... if u see SU 30 is Air Superiority fighter, Multirole Fighter, Strike fighter, Heavy class fighter

while MIG 29 is Multirole fighter plane like this.

Su-30, I think you are confusing few things about the aircraft roles…

Until few decades back, fighters used to be very role specific…they would be either ground attack or classified as Air superiority / Air defence fighters…..However, with modernisation in metallurgy, avionics, aircraft design came the new breed of fighters, known as Multi Role Fighters (MR)….The main thing that differentiates the two types of fighters (conventional and MR) is the vast choice of weapons and the availability of AI (airborne interceptor i.e. the radar on aircraft)….MR fighter carries variety of munitions in a single sortie and with a flick of a switch , it can change it role from air-to-air to air-ground or vice versa…

What you are saying is that SU-30 MKI is a Multi Role and also the Air defence fighter …well; it can only be one…if you label it as MR, so it means that it is definitely an air defence fighter as well....

It is also worth mentioning that sometimes same airframe is used for the different roles…examples are Mi-23 MF (air-air) /Mig-23 BN (air-ground) or Tornado IDS (air-ground)/Tornado ADV (Air Defence Variant)…

On the contrary, Mirage 2000, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafael, SU-30, Chengdu J-10 ,Gripen etc are all MR fighters that can perform both the roles efficiently….Mig-29 is an air superiority fighter only (not a MR)...Tejas and JF-17 will be designated as MR fighters because of their varied choice of weapons. But it will be overrating to compare these two fighters with Eurofighter or SU-30 or F-16 (say block 60)…..

LCA and JF-17 will be a new generation of cost effective, Multi Role fighters that will form the backbone of their respective airforces and make all existing older fighters redundant…For PAF , JF-17 will replace A-5s, F-7P and majority of Mirage squadrons. And on your side, LCA will replace Mig 21, Mig 23 and Mig-27s…..

LCA and JF-17 will eventually (after replacing F-7 and Mig-21 ) become the first fighter or the stepping stone for the young graduating pilots from academies…they will form part of the Operational conversion units and after flying for initially 3 to 4 years, officers will proceed to the advance fighters…..

 

[SU 30 MKI]

Su-30, I think you are confusing few things about the aircraft roles…

Until few decades back, fighters used to be very role specific…they would be either ground attack or classified as Air superiority / Air defence fighters…..However, with modernisation in metallurgy, avionics, aircraft design came the new breed of fighters, known as Multi Role Fighters (MR)….The main thing that differentiates the two types of fighters (conventional and MR) is the vast choice of weapons and the availability of AI (airborne interceptor i.e. the radar on aircraft)….MR fighter carries variety of munitions in a single sortie and with a flick of a switch , it can change it role from air-to-air to air-ground or vice versa…

What you are saying is that SU-30 MKI is a Multi Role and also the Air defence fighter …well; it can only be one…if you label it as MR, so it means that it is definitely an air defence fighter as well....

It is also worth mentioning that sometimes same airframe is used for the different roles…examples are Mi-23 MF (air-air) /Mig-23 BN (air-ground) or Tornado IDS (air-ground)/Tornado ADV (Air Defence Variant)…

On the contrary, Mirage 2000, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafael, SU-30, Chengdu J-10 ,Gripen etc are all MR fighters that can perform both the roles efficiently….Mig-29 is an air superiority fighter only (not a MR)...Tejas and JF-17 will be designated as MR fighters because of their varied choice of weapons. But it will be overrating to compare these two fighters with Eurofighter or SU-30 or F-16 (say block 60)…..

LCA and JF-17 will be a new generation of cost effective, Multi Role fighters that will form the backbone of their respective airforces and make all existing older fighters redundant…For PAF , JF-17 will replace A-5s, F-7P and majority of Mirage squadrons. And on your side, LCA will replace Mig 21, Mig 23 and Mig-27s…..

LCA and JF-17 will eventually (after replacing F-7 and Mig-21 ) become the first fighter or the stepping stone for the young graduating pilots from academies…they will form part of the Operational conversion units and after flying for initially 3 to 4 years, officers will proceed to the advance fighters…..

Agree But what will you call F-22 Multi Role Plane???

No, It is Air Dominance Plane. Because it purpose to have Dominance in Air, that is F22 Main Objective is while Ground attack is Secondary objective. Hence plane is made with that Capability.

Jagure : What you call that Plane Multi Role PLane? No, Its is Deep Penetration Bomber but it dose not stop her to carry A2A missile for its defence. BUt Plane primary Role is deep bombing and its designed for that role and not for air defense.

F22 and Jagure can carry all sort of weapons but their design, role and system designed to make specific role primary and their system is also designed to do that more effectively.

Now every plane has its primary and secondary objectives which they r made for and specialized in.