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We have long history of building UK and German aircrafts like Jaguar (Anglo-French), Hawk, Dornier etc. Mate the same reason was used by IA to buy huge number of T-90S against Arjun ie its commanility with T-72! But if we are not capable of adopting new technologies or modern infrastructure why do we need MRCA? We could simply buy upgraded Mirage-2009. One of the main point of MRCA in IAF is to bring new technologies, techniques and infrastructure to build a modern aircraft.


Agreed but the difference is marginal. Scorpene, Mirage-2000 upgrade deals are other examples. These two really didn't go well, much worse than Hawk deal.


Indian navy already floated a tender for new naval fighter which includes naval Eurofighter.


When we go for something new and better we should learn this and we have learned earlier. It will be no problem for IAF pilots.



Eurofighter offered something same, forgot it's details but they also offered a smaller version for LCA. It will not be a problem.

6)rafale will be the main fighter for france for atleast nxt 30 yrs and on the other hand almost all the partners of eads r focussing on F-35

7)and ya don't 4get at present rafale has aesa radar and air to ground capability


just tell me one italy,britain both of them have aircraft cariers and they r buying f-35 for their new cariers............that means they them self r not interested in carrier version of eurofighter then why should we buy that:azn:
 
F-414 has supercruise? where did you get that news? Its depends on the engine's thrust and aircraft's weight. If any aircraft is capable of sustained supersonic flight without the use of afterburners it has supercruising capability.

Actually i did a little looking arround and found these little bits of information.

Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners ("reheat").

The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner).

Kaveri
Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1

GE F414
Overall pressure ratio: 30:1

EJ-200
Overall pressure ratio: 26
Compressor 3LP, 5HP
Turbine 1HP, 1LP

GE-404
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1

Snecma M88
Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saab celebrates 'supercruise' test success for Gripen Demo

These include the demonstrator's General Electric F414G engine and an active electronically scanned array radar that should enter flight-testing later this year.
"To show potential customers that Gripen can supercruise is an important milestone", says Gripen International marketing director Bob Kemp.

Does that sound familiar.
 
6)rafale will be the main fighter for france for atleast nxt 30 yrs and on the other hand almost all the partners of eads r focussing on F-35
So is Eurofighter. It will also be the main fighter for many years and four nations consortium makes that scenario more real than single nation fighter.

They are re-focusing on EFT.
7)and ya don't 4get at present rafale has aesa radar and air to ground capability
Caesar on the EFT is the best radar on any of the MRCA as far as sources are concerned. Eurofighter also flight tested with AESA and enhanced Tranche-3 ground capabilities.

just tell me one italy,britain both of them have aircraft cariers and they r buying f-35 for their new cariers............that means they them self r not interested in carrier version of eurofighter then why should we buy that:azn:
Naval Eurofighter concept came up only few months back so there was no choice rather than F-35 and when it will take shape, I am sure they will go for it along with F-35. Also Indian navy didn't send RFI without any reason.
 
Actually i did a little looking arround and found these little bits of information.





Kaveri
Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1

GE F414
Overall pressure ratio: 30:1

EJ-200
Overall pressure ratio: 26
Compressor 3LP, 5HP
Turbine 1HP, 1LP

GE-404
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1

Snecma M88
Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saab celebrates 'supercruise' test success for Gripen Demo



Does that sound familiar.

What you got from it? An engine doesn't simply make any aircraft to supercruise but weight of the aircraft and the thrust of the engine combined. If F414 makes Tejas a supercruising fighter the same will not let F-16 to supercruise because its much heavier than Tejas.
 
Caesar on the EFT is the best radar on any of the MRCA as far as sources are concerned.

...really? What's so great about the CAESAR upgrade? Why is it better than the AN/APG-80 or AN/APG-79?
 
now thats the offer we have to grab with both hands. we will get a good engine+Partner for our futur help.
:cheers:
 
plzz guys lets dont bring mmrca and navy jets here ...... they got other dedicated threads for them !!!!!

plzz conc on lca !!!

i got more love for lca mk1-2 more than mrca !!!!
 
Hi Kinetic, buddy no offense, but many things you said about EF and Rafale are wrong!

2) Rafale is a good fighter no doubt but it has no taker. Technologically Eurofighter is newer, more advanced, combines technologies from four European countries and has more upgrade potentials. Yes, Rafale will be most less prone to sanction just after Mig-35, thats a good side.

EF and Rafale was developed pretty much at the same time, France was initially a member of the EF consortium, but quit after problems with UK.
Thales is the developer of both IRSTs, with the difference that at EF it was Thales UK and Thales France at Rafale. The Spectra EWS in combination with NG DDM is similar to avionics of F35, which are said to be 5. gen avionics.
Rafale has no export customer so far that's right, but France alone has already 180 Rafales on order, the plan is even to get close to 300 and unlike the EF members, France does not reduced their initial orders. So there is no problem for upgrade potential and they even started the research of a stealth upgrade for the future, while EF members have even a lot of trouble to fund the tranche 3 upgrade.

Indian navy already floated a tender for new naval fighter which includes naval Eurofighter.

Yes, but they only did some research about such a version, there is not even a prototype available and also no other customer for such fighters, so who will pay for the development of a small number of fighters, let alone their later upgrades?
Rafale on the other side is operational for a nearly a decade, which is a clear difference right?

Mate see, Rafale joined many competitions so far but could not win single one. If they get a deal from Brazil most probably political decision.

Yes, the same reason why Rafale lost in Singapore and South Korea, or EF won in Saudi Arabia. Most of these competitions are decided by politics (maybe even MMRCA), not by capabilities, but the fact that Rafale entered the final stage of the competition in South Korea, Singapore and Brazil, while EF always was rejected before, should say something too right?

The time when fighter like Rafale could rule the market was/is
1995-to-2012, that time is almost over and we know SU-30MK, F-15, F-16 and Eurofighter got almost all of it. After 2012 nations will think differently, here Eurofighter upgrades can challenge many fifth generation fighters like F-35, what it already started because as you know many of its technologies are of fifth generation.

Mate, EF just got 2 export customers, Austria for 15 fighter and Saudi Arabia, don't know where you see that they got them all?

Mate you know that Tranche-3 will get all the multi-role capabilities that Rafale have plus better A-to-A. It will not take time, they offered it to India and if India go for EFT, it will be inducted in time. See the weapons combination of EFT, its not less compared to Rafale as far as omni-role or multi-role or A-to-G is concerned...

Don't get confused by pictures, most of these weapons are not integrated yet! In A2G it only have Paveway II and III PGMs so far, Paveway IV in integration and possibly Brimstone ready by tranche 3A which IAF would get. Cruise missiles like Storm Shadow, Taurus, JDAM, or anti-ship missiles will only come if a foreign customer like us pays for the integration, just like Hope, or Hosbo glide bombs, which development is not even concluded.
Rafale in comparison has Paveway LGBs, AASM (European JDAM), Scalp cruise missile, Exocet anti ship missiles and now even ASMP (nuclear missile), although we won't get it integrated.
EF fully 4.5 capable with all techs and weapons is only expected by the same time F35 starts production, so around 2016, but only if the member countries will keep their orders and fund upgrades. The problem is with the financial and EURO crisis, this is more than doubtful, because all members cleared major cuts in their military budgets. That is also the reason why they are so desperatly offering us EF , ToT, partnership in production (not equal partnership), because they need export customers that has money.

Imo EF would be an exellent fighter, if the whole development wouldn't be so delayed and if the members had the money for further upgrades and developments. But sadly that's not the reality right now and that's why the EF is suffering so much. It lost most of the competitons although superior A2A performance, but because more than limited A2G capabilities.

Rafale is much closer (if we take the results of the latest exercises to account even clearly superior) to EF in A2A, than EF might come to Rafale in A2G.

I know this is in LCA thread now and I'm sorry to go OT, but the actual facts about EF are simply totally different form what you believe.
 
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With MRCA and every crap here, this thread is going into gutter.

Guys, keep the crap out and focus on LCA thread.
 
What you got from it? An engine doesn't simply make any aircraft to supercruise but weight of the aircraft and the thrust of the engine combined. If F414 makes Tejas a supercruising fighter the same will not let F-16 to supercruise because its much heavier than Tejas.

LCA is smallest and one of the lightest around.(it's lighter than the Saab)

If you can stick one into the SAAB and make it go "zoom"

i reason it's also possible to the do the same with Tejas.

the only question mark is air intakes and how much air the Engine get's.
 
LCA is smallest and one of the lightest around.(it's lighter than the Saab)

If you can stick one into the SAAB and make it go "zoom"

i reason it's also possible to the do the same with Tejas.

the only question mark is air intakes and how much air the Engine get's.

are there going to be any structural changes on tejas mk2 like sum larger body , wing modifications ...........etc ???
 
Possibly they might do it as IAF is not happy with the Air inlets in the first place [ Reason for flap doors were added similar to Jaguar ].

If time permits they may redesign, But I see that Engine selection is taking hell of a long time.:disagree:
 
are there going to be any structural changes on tejas mk2 like sum larger body , wing modifications ...........etc ???

There was going to be some "AeroDynamic refinements" as HAL put it.


Also depending on which engine is selected.

Ej200 and Ge414 come with their baggage and advantages.

the GE engine for example won't fit into the Tejas , some changes need to be made for that. If super cruise is possible there may be some changes to make that possible.

Ej200 fit's into the plane a lot easier so no major work has to be done. However Ej200 comes with TVC and may also include Super cruise.

Now with the Ej200 there is a lot of speculation

First read this article , if you haven't already

AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA

AERO INDIA: Eurojet offering thrust-vectoring EJ200 for LCA
By Andrew Doyle


Eurojet is to propose a thrust-vectoring version of the Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 powerplant to meet India's requirement for up to 150 engines to equip the first squadrons of its indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).
The Aeronautical Development Agency - which is leading development of the Tejas - is expected to issue a request for proposals in the next few weeks, pitching the EJ200 against General Electric's F414.
The Eurojet partner companies have been working on thrust vectoring nozzle technology for several years, lead by Spanish manufacturer ITP, which validated the concept during a series of bench tests. Eurofighter majority stakeholder EADS is equipping a cockpit simulator at its Manching facility to demonstrate the potential performance enhancements.

Thrust vectoring nozzle technology is being offered to the Eurofighter customer nations on the basis that it could significantly lower lifecycle costs by reducing fuel burn by "3-4% on an average mission" and extending the life of hot section parts, says Eurojet technical director Matt Price.

This is achieved by optimising nozzle shape throughout the flight envelope, and by eliminating the need for drag-inducing control surface deflections to trim the aircraft, particularly at supersonic speeds, where the aerodynamic centre moves aft, causing the nose to pitch down.

In addition, the technology can enhance agility, which could be of particular benefit to the Tejas as it is a delta-winged design that lacks canards.

EADS is leading the Eurofighter bid to win India's 126-aircraft medium multirole combat aircraft contest with the twin-engined Typhoon, and a deal to also equip the country's single-engined LCAs with the EJ200 would make the economics of establishing an in-country engine assembly line considerably more attractive.

The latest iteration of the Typhoon's flight-control system software has been designed to incorporate thrust-vectoring, and flight tests of the ITP thrust vectoring nozzle could begin within the next two years.
The flight-control system can be configured to use the thrust vectoring nozzle as an additional "control surface", boosting damage tolerance and reducing the risk of loss-of-control at low speeds, says Wolfgang Sterr, Eurojet engineering director EJ200/LCA. Furthermore, take-off distance for an aircraft such as the LCA could be reduced by around 20%, even in "hot and high" conditions, he adds.

Eurojet envisages a two-phase thrust vectoring nozzle flight-test programme, firstly using a twin-engine aircraft equipped with a single non-FCS-integrated thrust vectoring nozzle, followed by trials of the fully integrated system on both powerplants.

Now
The Tejas is single-engined multirole fighter which features a tailless, compound delta-wing planform and is designed with "relaxed static stability" for enhanced maneuverability.

A tailless aircraft (often tail-less) traditionally has all its horizontal control surfaces on its main wing surface. It has no horizontal stabilizer - either tailplane or canard foreplane (nor does it have a second wing in tandem arrangement). A 'tailless' type usually still has a vertical stabilising fin (vertical stabilizer) and control surface (rudder). However, NASA has recently adopted the 'tailless' description for the novel X-36 research aircraft which has a canard foreplane but no vertical fin.
The most successful tailless configuration has been the tailless delta, especially for combat aircraft.

lca1_diag1.jpg


Now , notice despite the fact that the Tejas is tailless craft, it still has a vertical stabilizer.

The vertical stabilizers, or fins, of aircraft, missiles or bombs are typically found on the aft end of the fuselage or body, and are intended to reduce aerodynamic side slip.

On aircraft, vertical stabilizers generally point upwards. These are also known as the vertical tail, and are part of an aircraft's empennage. The trailing end of the stabilizer is typically movable, and called the rudder; this allows the aircraft pilot to control yaw.

Often navigational radio or airband transceiver antennas are placed on or inside the vertical tail.

A slip is an aerodynamic state where an aircraft is moving somewhat sideways as well as forward relative to the oncoming airflow. In other words, for a conventional aircraft, the nose will not be pointing directly into the relative wind (in the side-to-side sense).
A slip is also a piloting maneuver where the pilot deliberately puts the aircraft into a slip.

The sideslip also uses opposite aileron and rudder. In this case it is entered by lowering a wing and exactly enough opposite rudder so the airplane does not turn (maintaining the same heading), while adding airspeed as required.
In the sideslip condition, the airplane's longitudinal axis remains parallel to the original flightpath, but the airplane no longer flies straight along its original track. Now, the horizontal component of lift forces the airplane to move sideways toward the low wing.
A sideslip is also one of the methods used by pilots to execute a crosswind landing. In order to land crosswind using the sideslip method, the pilot puts the airplane into a sideslip toward the wind to maintain runway centerline position while maintaining heading on the centerline with the rudder, touching one main landing gear, followed by the second main gear, and finally the nose gear (or tail gear if employed). This allows the wheels to be constantly aligned with the track, thus avoiding any side load at touchdown.
The slideslip method for cross-wind landings is not suitable for long winged and low sitting aircraft such as sailplanes, where instead a crab angle (heading into the wind) is maintained until a moment before touchdown.

Now , with the of 3d TVC control , as an additional control surface , the Aircraft MAY not need a vertical stabilizer. Removing will reduce weight and reduce the radar cross section.
Now as you can imagine that would require some changes to the Flight Control Laws.

This is not new Idea , it was toyed with a few years back with the first few MCA concepts


(keep in mid back them the designs were for semi-stealth aircraft)

Then again this is all speculation.
So far no delta wing Fighter aircraft have TVC , the Tejas would be the First or second(EF would probably get it first) to get it , if in fact it does get it.

So there really are no examples to look at , Most other Dealt wing craft have Canards , SO to Tejas TVC is more key to achieving those
highly agile manoeuvres . So if indeed it does get , it will be very interesting whatever happens.

There will be some re-design work regardless of whatever engine is selected. But to what kind or scale , is yet to be seen.
 
Possibly they might do it as IAF is not happy with the Air inlets in the first place [ Reason for flap doors were added similar to Jaguar ].

If time permits they may redesign, But I see that Engine selection is taking hell of a long time.:disagree:

Engine selection should happen before the end of the year , if it doesn't it may cause some serious problems.

I am assuming it has something to the with the MRCA tenders.
And re-submitting the commercial bids.
either that or price negotiations
 
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