HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[MirageBlue]

this clearly means..IAF was wrong in doing delaying tactics in its induction..by now by any standards Tejas is at least 10-15 years behind schedule..(first flight 2001, 20 years ago)

Yes, to a great degree they were not keen on inducting the Tejas at IOC level. And HAL is also responsible in the slow buildup to the production numbers that were required, especially for the IOC fighters.

It is not 10 years behind schedule. I would estimate it at being ~3-5 years behind schedule. Tejas LCA first flew on January 4, 2001 and entered service on July 1, 2016, that is 15 years from first flight. But it had reached IOC-1 in 2013 itself. I really wish that the IAF has pushed for earlier service entry with IOC-1 level fighters. The software updates could have been made as more testing and certification was done. But the IAF was extremely cautious and refused to take the IOC-1 level Tejas fighters into service.

Check Gripen A, Eurofighter and Rafale first flight and service entry dates.

I won't even go into how many prototypes crashed for the Gripen and Eurofighter during testing, before they entered service.


Gripen A prototype- First flight , Dec9, 1988
Gripen A- Entry into service , 1997

9 years from first flight of prototype to entry into service

Eurofighter - First flight, March 27, 1994
Eurofighter Tranche 1 - Entry into service, 4 August, 2003

9 years from first flight to entry into service in the form of Tranche 1 Eurofighters which were very limited in capability

Rafale A- First flight, July 4, 1986
Rafale M- Entry into service, 2004
Rafale A- Entry into service, 2006

18 years after first flight, Rafale M entered service. Rafale A entered service 20 years from first flight into the French Air Force.


If one does a little bit of research, a lot of false information can be easily disproved.

A great picture for Tejas and IAF fans.

No.45 Squadron Tejas Mk1 fighters at Sulur AFS, during the ceremony for No.18 Squadron's resurrection.

Image credit- Vayu Aerospace Review on Twitter.

To those people that talk about the Tejas wing, here is an image that shows it's shape.

It's called a COMPOUND delta, not just a delta wing. Now go do some research as to what a compound delta wing does and what advantages it may offer.

See the huge wing surface area? It means the Tejas has the LOWEST WING LOADING of any fighter jet, apart from the Typhoon.

Low Wing Loading contributes DIRECTLY to a very agile fighter due to the amount of lift it generates. The higher the wing loading, the more the fighter is actually like a bomb truck.

Lower wing loading means lower stall speed, tighter turns, low take off roll distances and much lower landing speeds. Add to that an excellent Fly By Wire FCS that never allows the pilot to exceed any limits and automatically takes over control if the pilot goes near to or below the stall speed and you have a top notch pilot friendly fighter.

Another image of Tejas Mk1 FOC (SP-17) with Tejas Division General Manager Yogindra. He has had a very big hand to play in the setting up of the assembly line for the Tejas. Came from a very poor family, with 5 other siblings and his father being a cook selling snacks on the roadside. Studied hard, went on to do his Mechanical Engg. from NIE and M.Tech from IIT Kanpur and then joined HAL in 1985. It's amazing how far he has come from his very humble beginnings.

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[MirageBlue]

In other news, a third Tejas assembly line is to be set up. It will first be used to manufacture the 8 Tejas trainers that are currently on order plus the 10 from the 83 order that is soon to be placed.

Not sure what it's capacity will be, but hopefully will allow more than 16 Tejas fighters to be assembled per year.

Another image of the Tejas (LSP-8) with the refueling probe, alongside a Su-30MKI. These 2 fighters will be working closely together in the future.

 

[Nomad40]

Of course it is elevated at an angle.

The IAF had very specific requirements about the rear seat pilot having visibility out of the front of the cockpit. In fact, in a Gripen D, the rear seater has almost no frontal visibility at all thanks to the fact that the cockpit is not angled.

The air intakes are perfectly fine and have NOTHING to do with delta wings. I would like you to please explain the physics of what those air intakes have to do with the delta wings. That would probably explain your own understanding better.



Not much bigger than most Asian pilots, including other South Asians. Anthropometric data for the 90th percentile Indian male was used to design the cockpit, the distances from the knobs, switches, MFDs, rudder pedals, head clearance from canopy, etc.

India's premier Design institute, the National Institute of Design in Ahmedabad was directly involved in the ergonomics of the Tejas cockpit as well as the design of jigs, sims, etc.. Those who are from India know how prestigious the NID is and how good they are.

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Design is not a Mirage copy. Dassault was a consultant for HAL in the early 1990s and yes they helped in the selection of the configuration. No big deal. The work was done by the 300 plus HAL engineers posted at Dassault for this. If you think that a mid-set compound delta wing is the same as a low set delta wing, then that's your problem really.

Neither the airframe nor the wings are anything similar to the Mirage. I could say that the JF-17's wing is a direct copy of the F-16 and the airframe is derived from the Super-7 which itself was derived from the MiG-21. Tell me whether that's right or wrong.

Project work began in 1993 with official sanction and funds granted. Before that it was simply about establishing ADA and the facilities required.

Weapons we'll integrate whatever we want that is available whether from Russia, Israel, Europe or our own. Crucially we can integrate on our own, without need to get some other OEM to do it at high cost and with the possibility of being denied permission. Going forward, most weapons will be indigenous designs. We own the source codes for the radar, the software onboard so integration is a lot easier than it was for ANY other design in the IAF.

We own the wind tunnels where all wind tunnel testing is done. We own the anechoic chambers where RCS and electromagnetic spectrum testing is done. We own the Lightning test facility where lightning testing is done.

Most avionics are Indian, except for new software defined radios and HMDS, Litening LDP and a few LRUs. Radar is Israeli back end with MMR antenna which is indigenous. And we'll get the indigenous Uttam AESA radar in the second block of the Tejas Mk1A. MFDs are by Samtel, which is India, HUD is from CSIO which is Indian, the RWR is Indian. The crucial computers on board are all Indian, with all software being written by Indians. The FCS is 100% Indian. Actuators are from Moog in USA, but now new indigenous actuators are also being tested. Mk1A may well have those.

The composites are indigenous, the jigs, tools and assembly are indigenous. The ground support equipment, the simulators, the testing and training equipment and software are indigenous.

The Brake Management System, Fuel Management System, Fire Suppression System, the software that ties all of these together with the Mission Computer and various other computers is indigenous. EW system may get SPJ from Israel, which is fine, it works great.

The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes.

The day you Pakistanis actually do something yourself rather than taking whatever China gives and calling it yours, you'll know the ACTUAL amount of effort that goes into designing and building a genuine 4th gen fighter.

Compared to all this, JF-17 is 99% Chinese. 1% is Turkish, thanks to Aselsan LDP. What is Pakistani design in it? Zero.

Come back and criticize when the Project Azm fighter is ready and inducted into service with this much level of Pakistani content. Or even when you can design and develop a JF-17 Block 4 on your own with minimal Chinese involvement.



No he doesn't. In fact he sits even higher than the front seater and with frontal visibility only matched by the Su-30MKI.

Here is a video of the current USAF Chief of Staff Gen Goldfein, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.

USAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer

and here is a video of the French Air Force Chief Genearl Lenata, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.

French AF Chief flies in Tejas trainer

IAF ACM Arup Raha, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.

IAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer

All 3 videos show the excellent visibility in both front and rear seats of a Tejas trainer.



What has that got to do with anything being discussed here? IAF has Su-30 squadrons on both Western and Eastern front as well as a new Su-30 squadron, No.222 'Tigersharks' based out of Southern Air Command, tasked with carrying Brahmos-A ALCMs.



This is the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between drogue/probe refueling and boom refueling. LOL.

He wants a "Good looking refueling system"! LOL. And then he claims others are stupid and have brain disease.

Arguing with a person with this limited knowledge is a waste of time. It's like teaching calculus to guy whose mathematics level is limited to counting on his fingers. Sab kuch iske uppar se nikal jaayega.

Go on, live in your own fantasy land. Your opinion doesn't make one bit of a difference in the real world.

Good insight at last a sensible reply.

"The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes"

I always ask before I comment on a person's intellect on a certain subject--------I think I know a thing or two about 4th Generation Fighters. I dont comment bluntly or out of spite but when I say there is room for improvement in the Aerodynamic design of the Tejas than there is.

I know a lot more than members in this forum think------The only thing is I am lazy and I dont have the time to type because I Study, work and have other commitments.

Lets talk su-30mki, Do you know the stranded combat configuration of the su-30 in the IAF and what stirke packages the Indian Air force has in store for an offensive air interdiction role.

 

[The Maverick]

Mirage blue thank you for your brilliant post.
It amazes me how shear hatred and jealousy make people post utter garbage on tejas . India has battled hard including it's own air force and leaders to get a wonderful machine into service. Our pilots were risking their lives in cold war relic migs and we have designed developed the safest 4th generation fighter on the planet.
Be proud and happy it looks amazing

 

[The Maverick]

A great picture for Tejas .

Image credit- Vayu Aerospace Review on Twitter.

To those people that talk about the Tejas wing, here is an image that shows it's shape.



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Oh my god 9 tejas in that line up looks amazing

 

[anathema]

this clearly means..IAF was wrong in doing delaying tactics in its induction..by now by any standards Tejas is at least 10-15 years behind schedule..(first flight 2001, 20 years ago)

First portion is true ! IAF did not give any importance to home made product when it had access to the entire global weapons bazaar. Infact there were articles written calling Tejas a '3 legged cheetah'. However the entire narrative began to change post ganganshakti excercises. That single excercise showed the real capability of home grown fighter and what it can do with it. I must say - after that there is no looking back. Inter services gunnery competitions further validated the performance of Tejas.

Your second point about 10-15 yrs - not at all. You can check contemporary fighters.

 

[MirageBlue]

Twitter post by former MiG-21 and Mirage-2000 pilot, former Group Captain in the IAF.

I think this should rest the case about how good the Tejas is. First ever competition that Tejas participated in, it bagged the trophy in most disciplines. Beating Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000 as well as Jaguar and MiG-21s.

Apart from this in Exercise Gagan Shakti it scored the best range scores and was the most accurate platform.

Let me tell you as a pilot
Measure of performance of an aeroplane is my yardstick
We have annual weapon delivery competition in the #IAF

In the first ever competition that #Tejas participated in, it bagged trophy in most of the disciplines
I rest my case

Link

 

[MirageBlue]

Good insight at last a sensible reply.

"The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes"

I always ask before I comment on a person's intellect on a certain subject--------I think I know a thing or two about 4th Generation Fighters. I dont comment bluntly or out of spite but when I say there is room for improvement in the Aerodynamic design of the Tejas than there is.

There is room for improvement in the aerodynamics of the Tejas Mk1 but it is not based on eye-balling pictures. Trust me, no one is that smart. All the aerodynamic refinements are being studied based on detailed CFD studies and wind tunnel testing.

If you (and I don't know your background) think that you can find out room for improvements in the Tejas design simply by looking at pictures, what makes you think that the scientists and engineers that are actually working on it are not aware of it?

All of the issues that relate to aerodynamic refinements are being addressed in the Tejas Mk2 design.

Nevertheless, the current aerodynamic configuration is still doing wonders as far as it's performance in the IAF is concerned, which is why the IAF is trying to get the 83 Tejas Mk1A order signed soon.

Believe me, no one in the IAF is complaining about it's range or endurance or it's agility.

What matters most is
-the availability of the fighter,
-the reliability in the air and on the ground, plus ease of diagnosing issues and fixing them
-the quality of the avionics and software on board,
-the ability to detect and put weapons on target,
-while keeping the pilot safe at all times.

And in those respects, so far the Tejas Mk1 is a stand-out performer. The Tejas Mk1A will only improve on it.

 

[ziaulislam]

First portion is true ! IAF did not give any importance to home made product when it had access to the entire global weapons bazaar. Infact there were articles written calling Tejas a '3 legged cheetah'. However the entire narrative began to change post ganganshakti excercises. That single excercise showed the real capability of home grown fighter and what it can do with it. I must say - after that there is no looking back. Inter services gunnery competitions further validated the performance of Tejas.

Your second point about 10-15 yrs - not at all. You can check contemporary fighters.

Which one?
F35, F16, gripen, tornado, jf17, j10..? Rafale?

 

[The Maverick]

Twitter post by former MiG-21 and Mirage-2000 pilot, former Group Captain in the IAF.

I think this should rest the case about how good the Tejas is. First ever competition that Tejas participated in, it bagged the trophy in most disciplines. Beating Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000 as well as Jaguar and MiG-21s.

Apart from this in Exercise Gagan Shakti it scored the best range scores and was the most accurate platform.



Link

WHAT IS EVEN MORE IMPRESSIVE ……. These results occurred with the IOC fighter … AND not the FOC mark1 fighter.

As we are MOVING TO MARK1A after just 40 planes imagine how good the gagan shakti performance would be with mark1a improvements including AESA radar Elta 2052.

* Somebody said somewhere when Mark1a comes into service it will be the best BVR PLATFORM IAF fields or at worst second only to Rafale

The reason being the RCS is only 0.5- 0.75 max
Aesa radar from Israel
New longer range BVRs Astra & Derby extended range.

Until of course the su30mki is upgraded to super MKI

 

[MirageBlue]

Which one?
F35, F16, gripen, tornado, jf17, j10..? Rafale?

Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter.

Check their first flight dates and their entry into service dates. Gripen and Eurofighter are in the 9 year range whereas Rafale is in the 20 year range. Check my earlier post on their dates.

All modern 4th gen fighters with full FBW FCS and composite airframes have taken that long to develop. JF-17 doesn't fall in that category since it had a basic FBW in both Block 1 and 2 and it is pretty much all alloy in construction.

 

[ziaulislam]

Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter.

Check their first flight dates and their entry into service dates. Gripen and Eurofighter are in the 9 year range whereas Rafale is in the 20 year range. Check my earlier post on their dates.

All modern 4th gen fighters with full FBW FCS and composite airframes have taken that long to develop. JF-17 doesn't fall in that category since it had a basic FBW in both Block 1 and 2 and it is pretty much all alloy in construction.

None of these plan saw 20 years delays..
What are you pointing at..rafale was just 5 years behind schedule?

That too because it was no longer needed when soviet union fell.
you mean LCA wasnt needed too..good to know..
Gripen development was slowed for the same reason.

 

[MirageBlue]

None of these plan saw 20 years delays..
What are you pointing at..rafale was just 5 years behind schedule?

That too because it was no longer needed when soviet union fell.
you mean LCA wasnt needed too..good to know..
Gripen development was slowed for the same reason.

Nor did the Tejas. It flew for the first time in 2001, entered service in 2016. 15 years from first flight to service entry.

Compared to 9 years for Gripen, Eurofighter and 20 years for Rafale.

 

[The Maverick]

Nor did the Tejas. It flew for the first time in 2001, entered service in 2016. 15 years from first flight to service entry.

Compared to 9 years for Gripen, Eurofighter and 20 years for Rafale.

It was late for what purpose
Yes too late to fight in a war against fifth generation fighters like f35 or late 4th generation fighters like typhoon rafale

But just in time to fight low end 4th generation. Fighters like thunders or mid life f16. And be more than a match

We are fighting Pakistan at best China not Israel or usa thank God

Tejas is perfect it's not too late

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

It was late for what purpose
Yes too late to fight in a war against fifth generation fighters like f35 or late 4th generation fighters like typhoon rafale

But just in time to fight low end 4th generation. Fighters like thunders or mid life f16. And be more than a match

We are fighting Pakistan at best China not Israel or usa thank God

Tejas is perfect it's not too late

NO, you can't defend on timeline.

Yes, it is around 5-6 years delayed. I am agreed that India didn't have the infrastructure to make 4th generation fighter plane but still, due to baabus and work culture in our organization. It got delayed..