Hajj Stampede, 700+ pilgrims died.

[bongbang]

So far 9 Bangladeshi dead in the stampede. RIP.

 

[mohsen]

You must have the IQ of a stone. Literarily.

No, there was no wind. Just massive rainfall and a massive storm with big winds. Numerous Youtube videos of people on the scene that filmed it while it happened confirms it. But of course you are going to dispute that as well. Such cranes don't collapse unless there are extreme weather conditions.

Of course this was deliberate. 100 similar cranes and only 1 happened to collapse. An inside job indeed.

You do realize that fires occur daily all over Iran and in most countries of the world? That Makkah is currently home to 5 million people right now. That's the population of Denmark. You telling me that there have been no fires in the past 3 weeks in Denmark for instance?

It was the only hotel fire so far and there were zero casualties. It was caused by Yemeni pilgrims. Obviously not deliberately but using your twisted logic it was probably deliberate.

Which can happen when you have 2.5 million pilgrims who use transports. There were zero casualties as well and it was quickly corrected.

There have been no official investigation yet. You have so far numerous theories based on various witness accounts. Very few are consistent.

Yes, it was all deliberate.

I guess this was deliberate too.

At Least 845 Pilgrims Die in Stampede in Baghdad - latimes

And those 30 or so stampedes in India during religious gatherings.

Category:Human stampedes in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I take my initial words back. A stone is more intelligent than you.

BTW. Those 4 Saudi Arabia (Shia pilgrims visiting Mashhad - 3 children) that were murdered (using your logic), what happened with that case? Care to inform me again?

Saudi Shiite pilgrims die of poisoning in Iran hotel | The Times of Israel

At least this was done by KSA after the freak crane collapse.

Compensation for victims
King Salman of Saudi Arabia ordered that a million Saudi riyal (US$266,000) be paid as compensation to the families of those who died in the crane collapse, and that two relatives of each of the deceased are to be the King's guests for Hajj in 2016. The Saudi King has further ordered a million Riyals to be paid to each victim of the collapse with a permanent disability, and half a million riyal (US$133,000) to be paid to as compensation to collapse victims without lasting injuries.[57][58] King Salman also decreed that these compensation payments will not prevent private legal claims by the injured and families of the deceased.[59]

Mecca crane collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know how I can put this in the most civilized manner as possible after such a tragedy to a few of you Farsis in this thread. That you even dare to utter the word "deliberate" and use this tragedy to score some cheap political points shows how low your regime is and its supporters (people like you).

Kindly keep your "theories" for yourself.

you just proved to be a liar.
The CCTV footage of that yard doesn't show any wind, not a single clothes wont shake. people are standing in the open area without being worry about any wind. if wind was the cause then that crane should have fallen during the wind flow, not few minutes after it.
about Baghdad, a false alarm about terrorists attack has been the cause of panic, so we can very well say Ale-Saud is the cause of that incident too. the whole world knows what ideology these terrorists have and which country is advertising it in the world.

and about current incident, Saudi security forces have redirected the pilgrims to another door which has been closed, several thousands people were waiting for the door to be opened, it's not hard to guess what would happen when this number of people want to enter an small door all together. and that's why I believe its an act of murder.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

you just proved to be a liar.
The CCTV footage of that yard doesn't show any wind, not a single clothes wont shake. people are standing in the open area without being worry about any wind. if wind was the cause then that crane should have fallen during the wind flow, not few minutes after it.
about Baghdad, a false alarm about terrorists attack has been the cause of panic, so we can very well say Ale-Saud is the cause of that incident too. the whole world knows what ideology these terrorists have and which country is advertising it in the world.

and about current incident, Saudi security forces have redirected the pilgrims to another door which has been closed, several thousands people were waiting for the door to be opened, it's not hard to guess what would happen when this number of people want to enter an small door all together. and that's why I believe its an act of murder.

Are you blind? The video CLEARLY shows heavy winds and that a storm took place. The crane would not have collapsed just due to rain as it had rained on previous days as well before that crane (1 out of 100 that exist) collapsed.

Oh, wait I forgot that Youtube is banned in Iran so you can't watch the video likely.

The only ignorant and liar here is you.

Here is an article from WEATHER.COM a leading weather channel on the internet.

http://www.weather.com/news/news/mecca-crane-collapse

Storms were present at the time of the crane collapse, according to enhanced satellite imagery.

Yes, and the fact that your country has an economy smaller than 10 million big UAE and a lower GDP (nominal) per capita than the average Angolan is also the fault of KSA.

Those well over deadly 30 stampedes which have killed 1000's upon 1000's of people in India were also the fault of KSA.

Nothing is confirmed. There are contradictory witness accounts and no report has been conducted. You are just writing theories (biased obviously) and nothing more than that.

A similar number of pilgrims were gathered on Wednesday and nothing happened. Nothing had changed on Thursday. I posted photo of the pilgrims in post 65 taken on Wednesday.

9 years without any accidents and now suddenly the regime decided to kill pilgrims (among them likely many, many locals not that there is a difference) just because Mohsen from Iran says so.

Have some shame.

BTW you did not reply. What has happened with those 4 Saudi Arabian Shia pilgrims (among them 3 children) that were murdered (using your logic) in Iran, in early June? Have the culprit even been punished? Was compensation given?

 

[fallstuff]

-July 2, 1990: A stampede inside a pedestrian tunnel (Al-Ma'aisim tunnel) leading out from Mecca towards Mina, Saudi Arabia and the Plains of Arafat led to the deaths of 1,426 pilgrims.

-May 23, 1994: 270 people were killed at Jamarat Bridge in Mecca during the stoning of the Devil.

-April 9, 1998: At least 118 Hajj pilgrims were trampled to death and 180 injured in an incident on Jamarat Bridge in Mecca.

-March 5, 2001: 35 Hajj pilgrims were trampled to death in a stampede during the Stoning of the Devil ritual in Mina, Saudi Arabia.

-February 11, 2003: The Stoning of the Devil ritual claimed 14 pilgrims' lives.

-February 1, 2004: 251 people were killed at Jamarat Bridge in Mecca during the stoning of the devil.

-January 12, 2006: 345 were killed at Jamarat Bridge in Mecca during the stoning of the devil.

-September 24, 2015: At least 717 Muslim pilgrims killed in Mina, Saudi Arabia in a stampede during the Haj pilgrimage. A further 805 were injured. The overall number of pilgrims is around 2 million according to the Saudi authorities.

List of human stampedes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Always the same place, its happening since decades but nothing changed it seems, theres obviously a problem with the organisation.

Millions of people congregate in Tongi, Dhaka every year for Ijtema, there is rarely anyone killed in incidents considering the poor infrastructure conditions.

I am surprised at the continuous loss of life in Hajj, strangely this time it appears to happen near a large concentration of Iranian pilgrims.

Second largest Muslim gathering closes in Bangladesh | Islamic World | Worldbulletin News

Millions of Muslims gather in Bangladesh| Reuters

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Millions of people congregate in Tongi, Dhaka every year for Ijtema, there is rarely anyone killed in incidents considering the poor infrastructure conditions.

I am surprised at the continuous loss of life in Hajj, strangely it happened near a large concentration of Iranian pilgrims.

Second largest Muslim gathering closes in Bangladesh | Islamic World | Worldbulletin News

Millions of Muslims gather in Bangladesh| Reuters

Pointless comparison as none of those specific rituals (only found during Hajj) take place. There was another user who compared Makkah and Madinah with the Vatican or Bethlehem. Not only are the pilgrims/worshippers there much, much lower in numbers they do not perform any rituals. The Vatican (last time I saw) can "only" host 200.000 worshippers and they are all standing and listening to the sermon doing nothing.

On the other hand the distances covered from Mounta Arafat all the way to Al-Masjid Al-Haram past the Mina Valley (several km long) also makes any comparisons senseless. No such geographic challenges are found in either the Vatican, Bethlehem or Karbala.

Bethlehem is nothing major either.

Also the climatic conditions in Makkah (hottest city in KSA especially during this part of the year) and the for many pilgrims once in a life time experience and religious zeal, number of elders and often lack of respect for fellow pilgrims creates certain dangers that cannot always be prevented fully. Hajj is the most cosmopolitan religious gathering in the world. It's a very big logistical challenge whether you want to downplay it or not.

 

[mohsen]

Are you blind? The video CLEARLY shows heavy winds and that a storm took place. The crane would not have collapsed just due to rain as it had rained on previous days as well before that crane (1 out of 100 that exist) collapsed.

Oh, wait I forgot that Youtube is banned in Iran so you can't watch the video likely.

The only ignorant and liar here is you.

Here is an article from WEATHER.COM a leading weather channel on the internet.

http://www.weather.com/news/news/mecca-crane-collapse

Storms were present at the time of the crane collapse, according to enhanced satellite imagery.

Yes, and the fact that your country has an economy smaller than 10 million big UAE and a lower GDP (nominal) per capita than the average Angolan is also the fault of KSA.

Those well over deadly 30 stampedes which have killed 1000's upon 1000's of people in India were also the fault of KSA.

Nothing is confirmed. There are contradictory witness accounts and no report has been conducted. You are just writing theories (biased obviously) and nothing more than that.

A similar number of pilgrims were gathered on Wednesday and nothing happened. Nothing had changed on Thursday. I posted photo of the pilgrims in post 65 taken on Wednesday.

9 years without any accidents and now suddenly the regime decided to kill pilgrims (among them likely many, many locals not that there is a difference) just because Mohsen from Iran says so.

Have some shame.

BTW you did not reply. What has happened with those 4 Saudi Arabian Shia pilgrims (among them 3 children) that were murdered (using your logic) in Iran, in early June? Have the culprit even been punished? Was compensation given?

every fool knows weather information isn't global. just because there has been wind or rain in that region and in that part of the day, it doesn't mean it's the same condition in every minutes and every part of the region.

who you are trying to fool? that air flow in your video is the result of impact and only can be seen in that place, not any other part of the yard. if you can show us your imaginary strong wind in the below video:
http://www.mizanonline.ir/files/fa/news/1394/6/23/112165_213.flv

you really want to compare 4 dead pilgrims in Iran with 2000 dead pilgrims in KSA during 5 incidents? good luck with your mentality.

 

[Madali]

every fool knows weather information isn't global. just because there has been wind or rain in that region and in that part of the day, it doesn't mean it's the same condition in every minutes and every part of the region.

who you are trying to fool? that air flow in your video is the result of impact and only can be seen in that place, not any other part of the yard. if you can show us your imaginary strong wind in the below video:
http://www.mizanonline.ir/files/fa/news/1394/6/23/112165_213.flv

you really want to compare 4 dead pilgrims in Iran with 2000 dead pilgrims in KSA during 5 incidents? good luck with your mentality.

In Iran's situation, we, neither the government or us at PDF, didn't try to blame the victims, nor did we brush it off as "it happens". The fault was placed on ourselves (not Saudi victims), the hotel owner was arrested, and compensation was paid. The saudi victims death was treated as important as if they were Iranian deaths.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

every fool knows weather information isn't global. just because there has been wind or rain in that region and in that part of the day, it doesn't mean it's the same condition in every minutes and every part of the region.

who you are trying to fool? that air flow in your video is the result of impact and only can be seen in that place, not any other part of the yard. if you can show us your imaginary strong wind in the below video:
http://www.mizanonline.ir/files/fa/news/1394/6/23/112165_213.flv

you really want to compare 4 dead pilgrims in Iran with 2000 dead pilgrims in KSA during 5 incidents? good luck with your mentality.

Now you are being ridiculous for the sake of to prove that the regime in KSA deliberately killed the pilgrims (truly twisted logic) despite no report being finalized, contradictory eyewitness accounts etc.

Yes, a satellite image from space from a neutral source (weather.com) eye witness accounts and a video first of all that shows the heavy winds is not enough proof or. I don't know what you want more?

Now can you tell me what proof you have of that freak crane collapse (1 out of 100 cranes collapsed that day) being deliberate? Go ahead, enlighten us.

Where did 2000 dead pilgrims come from suddenly? In a few minutes you will change that number to 5000. I am afraid that no sane should take you seriously in this debate.

In Iran's situation, we, neither the government or us at PDF, didn't try to blame the victims, nor did we brush it off as "it happens". The fault was placed on ourselves (not Saudi victims), the hotel owner was arrested, and compensation was paid. The saudi victims death was treated as important as if they were Iranian deaths.

No sources which confirm that. The compensation given to families of victims and injured pilgrims during that freak crane collapse during the storm is unprecedented and Iran would never do such a thing let alone be able to afford it. Hence the widespread praise from the families of the dead and injured.

The official statement from the person that matters (The King) has not blamed anyone but done what is supposed to be done. Start a thorough investigation. In KSA you had officials and media persons who said various things and those are their own words and not the official statement of the KSA government. Irfan al-Alawi for instance blamed the government while others said that the fault lied in both camps while Prince Khaled spoke based on witness accounts by African pilgrims themselves who reported that their team ignored orders from the security to stay where they were.

Actually the incident in Iran is worse in the way that it occurred at a hotel and only specifically targeted Saudi Arabians while the stampede that occurred was obviously not deliberate. There was no foul play (with almost full certainty, I don't need a report to conclude that) at most it was a human error where both parties (security and pilgrims) had a part of the blame. It's not like King Salman took an Apache helicopter to fly over Mina to demand that the pilgrims start a stampede.

"Let's do that, sounds like a good idea, Khalid. Call the security officers straight away". So it's baffling that your compatriots are of the belief that this was deliberate. I guess that stupidity will remain stupidity.

 

[fallstuff]

I think its time an external body oversees the work of the Hajj Organizers. The number of lives lost in stampede, crane collapse, and what not is simply unacceptable.

It seems the theory of learning curve do not apply to the hosts of the event organizers.

 

[Daneshmand]

In Iran's situation, we, neither the government or us at PDF, didn't try to blame the victims, nor did we brush it off as "it happens". The fault was placed on ourselves (not Saudi victims), the hotel owner was arrested, and compensation was paid. The saudi victims death was treated as important as if they were Iranian deaths.

And more importantly Africa was never blamed by Iran to have caused it.

The Saudis on the other hand blamed Africa. What Africa has to do with this entirely avoidable tragedy is beyond my comprehension.

I think its time an external body oversees the work of the Hajj Organizers. The number of lives lost in stampede, crane collapse, and what not is simply unacceptable.

It seems the theory of learning curve do not apply to the hosts of the event organizers.

I fully agree with you. An international Muslim organization must be created with the responsibility to run Mecca and Medina. This way, every body would share the responsibility and things will improve. For instance both Bangladesh and Pakistan make a large share of United Nations peacekeeping force. Why can't the proven capabilities of these two military be employed to manage the crowd in Mecca and Medina?

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I think its time an external body oversees the work of the Hajj Organizers. The number of lives lost in stampede, crane collapse, and what not is simply unacceptable.

It seems the theory of learning curve do not apply to the hosts of the event organizers.

There is already widespread cooperation with Haji delegations from across the world each Hajj. That will never happen as Makkah and Madinah are sovereign Saudi Arabian cities. Cities where millions of local natives (Hijazis - the millennium old guardians of those two ancient cities) live and they certainly have no wish to be governed by foreigners. It's not different to the Vatican having full sovereignty in Vatican or Israel and Palestine in Jerusalem/Al-Quds.

Nor is there a need for such a move. What is needed is even better security and surveillance (it's sky high already) and more prepared pilgrims. All pilgrims should be thoroughly educated about the rituals before they embark on the journey and there should IMO be a quota on the number of old/weak people as such an journey this time of the year and given all the rituals and walking is very demanding for them.

As we saw during the stampede. It only takes an old man or woman to fall off from an wheelchair to cause a potential catastrophe. It's extremely hard to avoid that. Especially when you already have so many people gathered at one place and after all you are dealing with humans and not robots.

Increased international cooperation is not a problem but everything else won't occur and should not occur. It's that simple. Hijaz has for 1400 straight years had the responsibility given by Allah (swt) and that won't change. Actually since Eid al-Adha that we celebrate which occurred over 4000 years ago has Makkah been a place of worship and pilgrimage.

 

[monitor]

Millions of people congregate in Tongi, Dhaka every year for Ijtema, there is rarely anyone killed in incidents considering the poor infrastructure conditions.

I am surprised at the continuous loss of life in Hajj, strangely this time it appears to happen near a large concentration of Iranian pilgrims.

Second largest Muslim gathering closes in Bangladesh | Islamic World | Worldbulletin News

Millions of Muslims gather in Bangladesh| Reuters

it seems jamara is most dangerous place most of the death occurred at that place in different time .

though we cannot compare one with other as hajj is mandatory for us on the other hand istema is manmade rutual .more importantly a people gather in istema arrive at different time and sit at on place they don't need to move from one place to other for any ritual like in hajj at a times most people gathered during 'akheri munajat'' come and go but those arrived for istema actually stay for a while leave gradually.

 

[Daneshmand]

Such a cheap way of making propaganda by playing with dead bodies.

Stretching the right hand of a dead body out and straightening the index finger by force, while the body has gone into rigor mortis (therefore holding the position) is vile, sick and below all interpretations of humanity.

Instead of these kind of propaganda, Saudis should transparently explain why 131+ Iranians and 236+ Pakistanis were killed along with hundreds of others from Muslim world in matter of minutes.

@haman10

 

[AHMED85]

Things are not changed until deserved.
Peoples can not reshuffle their minds even some incidents occurred before.
To not following instructions peoples expire the life of innocents.
Than how God will approved their efforts in religion.

This is why Muslims failed.

 

[monitor]

Such a cheap way of making propaganda by playing with dead bodies.

Stretching the right hand of a dead body out and straightening the index finger by force, while the body has gone into rigor mortis (therefore holding the position) is vile, sick and below all interpretations of humanity.

Instead of these kind of propaganda, Saudis should transparently explain why 131+ Iranians and 236+ Pakistanis were killed along with hundreds of others from Muslim world in matter of minutes.

@haman10

everybody is waiting for a answer from saudi authority why and how this tragedy happened and exploratory punishment for those responsible .