Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

America at large never thought much about Islam before 9/11.

That is not a justification for the current wave of opinion amongst some American circles based on bigotry and vilification of a an entire community that did not condone or support the 9/11 attacks.

Right...You demand that we accept that the US is partly to blame for 9/11, but you also demand that we disregard the fact that Islam and muslims were involved.

Yes - because US policy is a deliberately formulated tool to achieve certain goals, and that deliberately formulated policy has repercussions, good and bad. OBL himself directly benefited from aspects of American Foreign Policy, as did Jalalludin Haqqani, whose insurgent network is now considered the most dangerous by the US. The American Muslims community and Islam did not authorize OBL or AQ to do anything on their behalf. We did not, as a community or a religion, grant them any authority, nor did we formulate any policy that resulted in what the actions OBL took - that honor, again, falls on the US.

That is fine with me and most of America. If you are willing to let extremists 'hijack' Islam in America, you have no cause to complain if we form our own perception of Islam and muslims.

You are entitled to form whatever opinions you want, but I will speak for myself and my beliefs and my Islam, when I feel like it. I am not anymore responsible for what what an Islamic extremist believes/does than I am for what a Catholic priest raping Children believes/does.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

Nope...But if US foreign policies and support for Israel should be considered when discussing terrorism that involved a certain religion, then why the evasion about Islam and its influence?

Well, because most people are not Islamic scholars. You yourself refuse to debate Islam on this site because you know it would degenerate into either quote wars or cherry picking information. Debating theology is difficult at best. Meanwhile debating foreign policy is directly relevant to terrorism, especially since the War on Terror and wars in general are foreign policy.

Besides, you must know the history of Al Qaeda. You must also know that Bin Laden's movement was running on fumes until the early 90's, and he adopted his anti-American stance as life support to garner more recruits. Only then did his ranks swell. This anti-Americanism which revived Bin Laden's movement was not based on Islam, but simmering hatred of (perceived) American influence in the region. Whether that influence was justified or not I will not debate, but here is the basic fact -- even if Islam didn't exist, merely by playing on hatred of Americans Bin Laden could have gotten his recruits. Remember, the 9/11 hijackers didn't know they were going to the afterlife with 72 virgins and Bin Laden even laughed at them. Even if the concept of jihad didn't exist, Bin Laden would have found some way to manipulate people to his ends. Al Qaeda's modus operandi isn't low impact attacks like bus bombers, but high profile specatular attacks and that doesn't require an army of recruits, only a few dozen to a few hundreds at most. The Al Qaeda wannabes might not exist without Islam, but there would still be a Bin Laden type who absolutely hates Westerners and what we represent.

 

[muse]

Interesting comments by some US forum members - it seems that to some the rights of US Muslims are negotiable - US Muslims it seems some argue here, need some sort of approval by some other US citizens who imagine that they can eexercise a veto or that a tribute must be made to them, in order for US Muslims to exercise their rights, and some who seem proponents of this line of reasoning, want to equate the actions of the Al-Qaida with those of All Muslims, particularoly Muslims in the US - that simply should not be and so far is not, something acceptable to US Muslims - the US government goes around the world claiming it's actions ought not be construed as war against Islam or Muslims, yet it seems some of it's own citizenry and politicians do not believe the US government, for they insist that the actionsof the Al-Qaida OUGHT to be equated as those of All Muslims.

Some have argued that it is the equivalent of the Japanese erecting a Temple in honor of it's war dead - Again, note that the actions of the Al-Qaida is something that all US Muslims MUST, and OUGHT to be held accountable for - exactly why and how, is something that proponents of this line of reasoning have not as yet felt compelled to explain - however, these people have had a positive impact, in the sense that they have had the effect of awakening many US Muslims to the insidious nature of the threat they face to their liberties in the US - of course, we wish them well, in their struggle.

We had argued that the great hope in the US is not it's government nor it's organizations but the common decency of it's populace - events have picked up a speed thaty will make for confusing deliberation and US muslims seem to realize that it's not just their struggle, it's a struggle the entire US seems to depend on US Muslims to carry forward. The security consolidation in US government, the defensive posture of it's judiciary, the fragility of it's economy, the willingness to imagine that all US citizens can be made un-equal, pose a danger to the integrity of the US and for it's moral position at home and abroad, US Muslims it seems have to shoulder the responsibility for all US - again, we of course, wish them well, in their struggle to not only secure themselves but all US citizens.

 

[Malik Usman]

IMO if the mosque is built, it will create more hatred for Muslims among the americans in future.

No one will hate......Once there will be Islamic center peoples will have more chances to understand about Islam. What Islam is ?...... Not the definition european media is possing.....

 

[TOPGUN]

One feedback on facebook regarding the mosque:-

I think there should be a force field around Ground Zero that repels all traces of Islamic Culture for at least 3 blocks.

Thats not a human speaking but more of a umatture animal speaking out his haterd not every muslim in the world is a terrorist we are people too that belong to the human race what a jerk this guy is.

 

[Tang0]

No one in Japan is pushing for any kind of shrine or 'community center' near the Arizona Memorial. This is about sensitivity, basic decency and respect. May be the US should build a 'memorial' in Baghdad in remembrance of American deaths. We can include Iraqi soldiers as well if the local protests are loud enough.

And yet there are plenty of Japanese groups of tourists at the Arizona memorial, and plenty of US tourists at the Hiroshima peace park. I have been to both and seen it.
There are plenty of Japanese/Asian American community centers spread about Hawaii as well.... Although, no such luck in Hiroshima, unless wait....You count the GIANT baseball stadium right next to the peace park...If there was every a symbol of US culture, there it is....

That is the view from the other side of the road outside the stadium...


I am going to say that you get a fail card for your analogy. Both Japan and the US are over the differences of their former governments, people need to drop their grudge against Islam.

 

[Tang0]

We had argued that the great hope in the US is not it's government nor it's organizations but the common decency of it's populace - events have picked up a speed thaty will make for confusing deliberation and US muslims seem to realize that it's not just their struggle, it's a struggle the entire US seems to depend on US Muslims to carry forward. The security consolidation in US government, the defensive posture of it's judiciary, the fragility of it's economy, the willingness to imagine that all US citizens can be made un-equal, pose a danger to the integrity of the US and for it's moral position at home and abroad, US Muslims it seems have to shoulder the responsibility for all US - again, we of course, wish them well, in their struggle to not only secure themselves but all US citizens.

Without a ground view, I think you overstate the seriousness of the situation. The US is not going to bring back internment camps anytime soon. I know that is not what you are implying directly, but you seem to be implying obliquely that US Muslims can expect to face serous discrimination of a quasi-official sort. Really, if I went to Pakistan, and tried to start a church say...Near Lal Masjid, how many weeks would it take for it to be blown up? Would it even be approved for construction? Last time I checked, Pakistan did have an official religion....

There was absolutely 0 chance of that mosque not getting a building permit. No judge in his right mind would uphold the cities decision, and every official in the city from the mayor down said that they had no business determining who could and could not build near ground zero...


"Muslims are as much a part of our city and our country as the people of any faith. And they are as welcome to worship in lower Manhattan as any other group."
__
Mayor Micheal Bloomberg

Oh, and by ethnicity, Mayor Bloomberg is a Russian Jew....If that matters, and in the US, I don't think it does....
Only 36% of people from Manhattan oppose the building of the Mosque.

 

[Tang0]

I know this is a low blow, but...
From wikipedia:
"Christians, along with other non-Muslim minorities, are discriminated against in the Constitution of Pakistan. Non-Muslims are barred from becoming the President[8] or Prime Minister [9]. Furthermore, they are barred from being judges in the Federal Shariat Court, which has the power to strike down any law deemed un-Islamic.[10]"
And:
Coerced conversions to Islam from Christianity are a major source of concern for Pakistani Christians, and the minority face threats, harassment and intimidation tactics from Islamic extremists[1]
. Often, converts to Christianity from Islam face the death penalty [2]

So watch yourself before talking about the common decency of US citizens. Now, I will willingly admit hate crimes in the US happen:
Big Jump in Hate Crimes Against Muslims Documented - NAM

But at least it is not codified in the constitution....

Many of the hate crimes intended to be directed at Muslims end up targeting Sikhs because of the turbans they wear. Indicating that the hatred stems almost entirely from ignorance and mental illness, rather than any type of coordinated discriminatory campaign.
http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1192337092&ucat=8

 

[whocares]

if i may be so politically incorrect, islam is just about the only religion that makes defensive holy war a personal prerogative which has consequences in the after life. this is one of the prevailing theological interpretations of the constituting documents.

in my opinion, any mosques promoting this theological viewpoint do not have a place in a modern western democracy and should be closed down. any interpretation of a religion that makes violence a personal prerogative does not deserve the freedom to spread its point of view.

this theological viewpoint is absolutely instrumental when people who aren't appointed by the muslim world at large so to say indulge in self righteous violence with the claim that they are doing a religious duty.

all mosques should be evaluated on the theology that they purports to preach.

 

[Developereo]

There is some illogical fear of mosques and I have seen that wether in India, Australia or US, whenever we arrange open days and invite the local non-muslims they come up with the weirdest questions imaginable. And are happily surprised at the answers they get in return.

That's the main reason for opposition to Park51 (formerly Cordoba House). As you stated, it houses a community center and various facilities open to the general public. The bigots are afraid that non-muslim visitors might actually get to see the positive side of Islam and muslims rather than the one-sided caricature carefully crafted by the media.

They are also trying to build the Community Center in one of the most expensive real estate in the world, does it sounds logical?

Believe or not, there is an actual city around Ground Zero. It includes apartments, gyms, convenience stores and, yes, even places of religious worship. There is nothing out of the ordinary about this center, except in the minds of the bigots.

Will Muslims feel comfortable going to a center and coming out when they are continuously seen suspicious by bystanders?

The whole idea is that 'suspicious bystanders' will actually go in and see for themselves first-hand, instead of letting 'experts' tell them what to think about Islam.

There is no question of 'taste, decency, sensitivity or respect for history' here. These are all canards dredged up to somehow imply that American Muslims, Muslims in general and Islam bear responsibility for the 911 attacks. For any Muslim to accept these position is to accept culpability in the 911 attacks, and that is precisely the purpose behind these disingenuous arguments.

Perfectly stated. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I know this is a low blow, but...
From wikipedia:
"Christians, along with other non-Muslim minorities, are discriminated against in the Constitution of Pakistan. Non-Muslims are barred from becoming the President[8] or Prime Minister [9]. Furthermore, they are barred from being judges in the Federal Shariat Court, which has the power to strike down any law deemed un-Islamic.[10]"
And:
Coerced conversions to Islam from Christianity are a major source of concern for Pakistani Christians, and the minority face threats, harassment and intimidation tactics from Islamic extremists[1]
. Often, converts to Christianity from Islam face the death penalty [2]

So watch yourself before talking about the common decency of US citizens. Now, I will willingly admit hate crimes in the US happen:
Big Jump in Hate Crimes Against Muslims Documented - NAM

But at least it is not codified in the constitution....

I'm afraid you haven't really read the comments of many of the Pakistani posters critical of the reaction of a particular section of society in the US, on the issue of legalized and social discrimination against minorities in Pakistan.

Pay a visit to the Ahmadi thread sticky in the current affairs section to read the views of some.

Given that consistent approach towards discriminatory State policies and/or social attitudes (regardless of the nation concerned), I don't think 'watching ourselves' is necessary.

 

[muse]

Tang0


You may not know this or realize the seriousness of it just yet - but I have spoken to very many US Muslims, they FEEL discriminated against, particularly by the US government and it's security apparatus - and I recall you are US government security apparatchik of some sort, it might help you to realize that these individuals I referred to above are US Citizens - supposedly as tax payers, law abiding and voting citizens, there is something wrong, I hope you will agree, when such people begin to fear their own government -- but then, it might dawn on them, that their citizenship is a kind of a parole - for a responsible person of conscience such as yourself, you might wish to consider this unique situation and it's future implications.

Very many individuals in responsible positions had given up asking questions of the US government - it's time to seek very clear definitions of what the US is to US citizens and discuss what it ought to be and mean.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Without a ground view, I think you overstate the seriousness of the situation. The US is not going to bring back internment camps anytime soon. I know that is not what you are implying directly, but you seem to be implying obliquely that US Muslims can expect to face serous discrimination of a quasi-official sort.

I don't think the possibility of discrimination of a legal or quasi legal sort is a far fetched concern. I certainly remember the 'special registration' that legal Muslim residents/visitors (not citizens) had to undergo after 911. There are a handful of horrible tales (just about Pakistanis, since that was the community I was most tied into at the time) just from the university I was at. One particular kid had three years worth of his education (and over $50,000) wasted because he was not allowed to return for his final year after 9/11 - reason unknown.

Under another neo-con administration, especially with the Tea Party crowd gaining prominence, these are serious concerns. Also take a look at the wave of xenophobia sweeping liberal Western Europe at the moment - bans on minarets, Burqas, headscarves, call to prayer - justifications along the lines of what you hear certain conservatives in the US spouting, 'it signifies a conquering of the West' etc.

 

[whocares]

I'm afraid you haven't really read the comments of many of the Pakistani posters critical of the reaction of a particular section of society in the US, on the issue of legalized and social discrimination against minorities in Pakistan.

Pay a visit to the Ahmadi thread sticky in the current affairs section to read the views of some.

Given that consistent approach towards discriminatory State policies and/or social attitudes (regardless of the nation concerned), I don't think 'watching ourselves' is necessary.

I couldn't follow your argument at all here.

 

[Undivided Kashmir]

Its private property let them do want whatever with that place, as long as it does not preach Negative things affecting the security of the country.